WOTM-01 Pre-Game Discussion

[ainwood]

The end of a river is always in a sea, or one-tile lake. I've never seen one end otherwise.

The river placement tool in Worldbuilder is a bit tricky....

 

[ewokimpi]

Originally posted by ainwood
The river placement tool in Worldbuilder is a bit tricky....

So true!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The river placement tool in Worldbuilder is a bit tricky....

Oh Ainwood, you must be having such fun reading this discussion and speculation about your map, and knowing who is right and who's wrong! What a shame you can't share most of your enjoyment with us.

(Actually it's quite an interesting experience for me reading this. I feel much more detached than normal when reading the pre-game discussion threads, since I still haven't decided whether or not to buy warlords, and therefore whether to join in the WOTM. First time reading and not impatiently waiting for the saves to become available)

 

[Redbad]

First time reading and not impatiently waiting for the saves to become available)

That must feel strange, I never have had that feeling.

 

[drkodos]

The river placement tool in Worldbuilder is a bit tricky....

Uh-oh!

Well .... it is an arid map so maybe it is realistically like the Basin & Range province where rivers disappear into sinks and we have a phenomena similar to the Colorado river not even reaching the sea anymore.

Would Ainwood drop that hint as a Red Herring? I doubt it.

As for the UU, I have found the Numidian Cavalry a bit meh. Takes too long, and too many beakers to get HBR. If one build stables first, Numidians can be powerful, but building stables only adds to the untimeliness of the UU and shortens the window in which they are effective. With the slight nerfing to Mounted units in Warlords, Numidian Cavalry are still decent for patrolling areas inside our cultural borders, but poor at attacking cities. I doubt I will build any unless I pop HBR from a hut (unlikely!).

 

[BLubmuz]

The river placement tool in Worldbuilder is a bit tricky....

Just a bit?

I'm a bit detached too, after an Immortal game, is there something to stop me on Noble??

(answer: -this kind of thoughts)

Seriously, not much to say without resources in sight.
Settle on a plain hill can be good, depends from what we'll see.
I guess i'll go warmonger, despite Normal speed.

and about the UU i'm with drkodos, a good stack of axes and cats is surely better.

I've tried a test game with a similar start for my capital, settled in a hill in the 2nd turn, at least to retake the Normal-speed pace:
Definitely resources-poor, but 2 stones in sight (i guess it's normal in arid)
I completed SH in 825BC, Oracle in 625BC for CS, Pyramids in 660AD (!) and HG in 620AD

Happiness and health were problems, despite the level and pyramids

 

[Déja]

My main issue playing with these settings was the severe lack of resources. In 3 of 4 games I had no copper anywhere near me and in 1 I had no iron or copper. Not many (non-sea) health resources in all games.

Yeah, health has been an issue in every game I've played, so far, with food being tied in with that. Also, resources seem to either be really clustered or really spread out, but they've never been very evenly distributed in any of my games, thus far.

Also, as far as the UU is concerned, if you start out with horses nearby, they're worth it for a little bit (bonus against melee is nice), but if you have to wait for horses, they'll come too late to be useful. That's part of the reason I want to go for an early AH, just to see what I've got to work with.

 

[ewokimpi]

Did anyone have Vassal States affect their practice game?

By the time Carthago invaded the most distant continent (which was waaaaaaaay the heck on the other side of the map), Brennus had become that continent's leading power, and gotten Kublai Khan (!) to be a vassal state to him. There was no war involved, they negociated a deal.

Mehmed II was on that continent too. Mehmed was closest to the port my Army would embark from, so I declared on and landed on him. Brennus immediately declared on Mehmed (bringing in Kublai with him). A few turns later Mehmed capitulated to Brennus, so Brennus and Kublai immediately declared on Carthage!

Of course, by that time it was Carthagian infantry against longbows and knights, so did I care? However, the same scenario in a Monarch+ level game might be very "interesting".

Some turns later, when both Brennus and Mehmed offered to become Vassals of Carthago, I accepted, going over the domination limit by a couple of percentage points. So the end of the game came a bit earlier than might otherwise be.

 

[Déja]

Vassal States are a double-edged sword. They can help for domination and diplo victories, but you have to make sure that you want a permanent peace with them. If they're strong enough, though, they can be helpful in a prolonged war, so you just have to use them right, which takes a few games to get the hang of

 

[Tech Step]

what is the science order people usually use to do the CS slingshot. I find that I can never get CS quick enough. Do people usually assign scientists at the start of the game to speed the rate at which they learn???

 

[drkodos]

what is the science order people usually use to do the CS slingshot. I find that I can never get CS quick enough. Do people usually assign scientists at the start of the game to speed the rate at which they learn???

It's really only 5 techs needed:

Mysticism
Meditation
Priesthood
Writing
Code of Laws

Sometime I will pop a scientist if I build a library after discovering writing. At Noble speed, I find I can usually fit in Bronze Working and another tech or two, which is sometimes nice grabbing Pottery and building some cottages to kick in some commerce beakers. At Normal speed, the 525 beakers needed for CoL is definitely the bottleneck, so any help from libraries or cottages can really make a difference.

Another factor is finding out what other civs are in the game. Some other civs seem to prioritize The Oracle and others do not. Also, I found that if I get Stonehenge, it increases the likelihood that another civ will build The Oracle quickly.

Lately, I have been more interested in building the Great Wall and using the Engineer from it to lightbulb the majority of Civil Service beakers instead of racing to the Oracle/CoL.

 

[ewokimpi]

Originally posted by drkodos
Lately, I have been more interested in building the Great Wall and using the Engineer from it to lightbulb the majority of Civil Service beakers instead of racing to the Oracle/CoL.

Nice idea!

 

[Thrallia]

I didn't know that Engineers would contribute to CS, if they do, that's nice to know.

I was considering trying for a Machinery slingshot on this game(IIRC Metal Casting is cheaper than CoL), and then researching CS, but if an Engineer will research CS, I could build a few rapid cities, then build a Great Wall, then Oracle and possibly get Macemen before 1AD

 

[AU_Armageddon]

I think I could go the rest of my life without reading the words CS slingshot. Since this is such a piddly easy one, how about trying something different instead of always making beurocracy the be-all-end-all, like try a liberalism slingshot.

Go myst, build stonehenge while going meditation ->poly -> priesthood. Then oracle while teching writing -> alphabet~math -> lit using oracle for code and the first prophet for civil. tech paper and philo, use the 2nd prophet for music, use the artist from music for education, then all you got is liberalism for a still in BC liberalism slingshot.

Forget all the other techs, u can trade for them. Use lib for whatever, mebbe bc gunpowder is nice pedestal. Or mebbe if dun like instead call it a cavalry slingshot taking the longer path at start and saving the music artist for nationalism instead. or call it something else entirely based on diff tech. anything else.

Just dun state that old shoehorn phrase CS slingshot as the strat and gameplan. All the way to gotm 10 and still it must've been referenced 1 in every 2 posts for these 4 pages. I can hear it ringing in my ears.

aaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

my strat for wotm1 - gonna beeline to future tech

 

[Redbad]

Folks,

I just got a great idea:

Why not build the Oracle and try to get Civil Service with it as the free tech? I think we could call it something like CS slingshot.

How's that for a plan?

 

[Ribannah]

Interesting, I'd never think of it.
Getting Liberalism that early seems a waste of the free tech.

 

[ewokimpi]

AU_Armageddon, I feel your pain.

Side note: in my test game, I used liberalism to get Assembly Line.

 

[Airny]

I think I will go for something different:
CS slingshot

 

[lilnev]

I'm going to play Wonder-boy. Just collect pretty trinkets and let the victory conditon take care of itself eventually. I hope we have Stone and/or Marble available. In my practice games, it's been pretty hard to get all of the first seven (Stonehenge, Oracle, Great Wall, Pyramids, Temple of Artemis, Parthenon, and Great Lighthouse). I almost pulled it off once, but my 60% Great Engineer wasn't. I've experimented with various Oracle-Metal Casting-Forge-Engineer-Great Engineer slingshots, but it's tricky when I need to put the 'Henge down too, and manage my GP points to avoid the stupid Prophets. I think it's better to just get my Great Engineer from the Wall. If I can get the first seven, the rest should be easy. In my experience I'm still way ahead in tech when I hit Alphabet (like, they may or may not have Writing) despite detouring through Priesthood, Sailing, BW, Masonry, and often Pottery or AH. Wish me luck!

peace,
lilnev

p.s. Or maybe I'll just do the CS-slingshot.

 

[Balton]

I just had the Warlords shipped in so I will try a cultural win on my work laptop until we can get MacPro's available in Turkey.

I have not seen anyone going for a cultural win, perhaps it is Warlords??

I just set it up and no test games as yet, so any advice for a cultural win on Warlords??