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Would anyone be interested in an Indo-Greek scenario?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Virote_Considon, Apr 12, 2009.

  1. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    So, the ancient Greeks were cool. The ancient Indians were cool. What do you get when you combine them? The coolness that is the Indo-Greeks!

    So, would anyone be interested in helping make an Indo-Greek scenario? I have quite a bit of enthusiasm, but almost no knowledge (I’m limited to what Wikipedia tells me, at the moment). I’ve got a few ideas, though, and I can post the amount which I have already done at some point.

    What I’ve done so far:
    -I’ve found a map which is big enough in the right places (Kulade’s Eurasian map, cropped and altered in places)
    -Civilizations are pretty much complete, though there’s room to add more if needed.
    -Units are mostly done (the flavoured unit lines are added in, although there’s no unique units, and a few units which will be auto-produced aren’t there, either.
    -Buildings are sort of mapped out, although I could really use a hand here (the problem is, the Indo-Greeks weren’t the builders of their ancestors/Western brothers!)
    -Governments are mapped out in my head, sort of, although again, not much done here (there’s just Monarchy and Tribal Council (for barbs.) at the moment, although I think I’ll expand it to include Oligarchy and Imperialism)
    -Tech tree is pretty much done, although there’s room to add in some flavour techs possibly, as the tech tree is pretty generic at this point in time

    Some time soon, I’ll post a few updates about things such as civs, gameplay features, and all that jazz, and let you lot dissect it. Then at some point after that, I can upload what I’ve done thus far, and you can dissect this further!

    In the meantime, here’s a screenshot of the Indo-Greeks starting position:
     
  2. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

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    Ummmm... yeahhhh!?

    :coffee:
     
  3. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    The Map



    As you can see, the map encompasses quite a distance. I purposefully included Indonesia, because even though they weren’t at this point settled, I think that the ability to settle them should be in (especially since the map can get quite crowded!) It also includes most of the Han (who you can trade with if desired – although they can be quite the formidable force to take!) To the north, there is plenty of space for barbarians to spawn – which the Steppe peoples can enslave! To the East, I have most of Arabia and pretty much all of Parthia, but it doesn’t go far enough to include any other states – which will make the Greek civs in this scenario as isolated from the Greek world as they were in real life!

    Civilizations

    There are currently 26 civilizations on the map, so there can be (if needed) up to 5 more (well, technically 6 more, as the Dahae are pretty replaceable…) Each “culture group” has its own flavour unit line, and Arabia has their own, the Deccan states have their own different from the northern Indian states, and I may possibly split both the Persians and the Xiongnu from the Steppe lines. Culture groups are as follows: Mediterranean, Indian, Eastern, Steppe. There is a spare culture group (European) if needed. Here are the civ:

    Indo-Greeks
    Spoiler :
    The scenario’s leading role, the Indo-Greeks. They’re gonna be pretty strong – the strongest civ in India. They are locked into an a-historical alliance with Bactria and Dayuan, for gameplay reasons.

    Leader: King Menander
    Traits: Militaristic, Scientific, Commercial
    Starting Cities: Taxila, Sagala, Caucasus Alexandria
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Greek


    Mathura
    Spoiler :

    One of the Northern Indian civs, they play like any other, really. Squished between the Sunga and the Indo-Greeks, these guys don’t have it too good!

    Leader: Dunno, yet.
    Traits: Religious, Commercial, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: Mathura, Delhi
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Indian (Northern)


    Sunga
    Spoiler :

    Sunga is the strongest of the actual Indian civs, starting the game with an army, a large amount of troops, and four cities (compare that with most of their neighbours, who receive two!) Bodh Gaya will be a culture-producing powerhouse, but so will Sanchi, so if they manage to capture Sanchi, then they will be able to go for a culture victory – if they really wanted to ;)

    Leader: Saamrat Pusyamitra Sunga
    Traits: Militaristic, Expansionist, Religious
    Starting Cities: Pataliputra, Saketa, Bodh Gaya, Tamralipta
    Unique Unit: Undecided.
    Culture: Indian (Northern)


    Bactria
    Spoiler :

    Bactria is a civ who I’m setting up to be destroyed, pretty much. They are in a locked alliance with the Indo-Greeks and Dayuan (read: 2 liabilities!), and they only have a set amount of their unique unit, the Bactrian cavalry. They have both the strong Parthians and the Steppe civs on their doorstep, and they aren’t going to have the defences of the Dayuan allies.

    Leader: King Demetrius
    Traits: Scientific, Religious, Commercial
    Starting Cities: Bactria, Samarkand, Alexandia on the Oxus, Kabul
    Unique Unit: Bactrian Cavalry
    Culture: Greek


    Saka
    Spoiler :

    The Saka act like pretty much all nomadic civs. They can’t build workers or settlers, and have one unreachable city which stops them dying. What they can do, is enslave masses of units – all of their units enslave a unique Steppe unit line. They also have strong Nomad king units, which are the strongest units of the game!

    Leader: ? (Currently just Chief Saka)
    Traits: Militaristic, Expansionist, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: - (An unreachable “Saka” is their capital and only city)
    Unique Unit: - (Nomads won’t have a unique unit per say, but they already get Nomads and a steppe unit line!)
    Culture: Steppe


    Scythia
    Spoiler :

    Scythia are pretty much identical to the Saka, and other nomadic civs. They’re here to make everyone’s lives a misery! :D

    Leader: King Azes I
    Traits: Militaristic, Expansionist, Commercial
    Starting Cities: - (An unreachable “Scythia” is their only starting city)
    Unique Unit: - (Nomads won’t have unique units!)
    Culture: Steppes


    Dahae Confederation
    Spoiler :

    If, for whatever reason, we need an extra civilization space, Dahae can fill it up. Other than that, the Dahae act like all the other nomadic civs – they can wreck havoc on all the other civs!

    Leader: ? (Currently just “Chief Dahae”)
    Traits: Militaristic, Commercial, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: - (An unreachable “Dahae” is their only starting city)
    Unique Unit: - (Nomads won’t have unique units)
    Culture: Steppe


    Kushans
    Spoiler :

    Another nomadic civ. These ones have access to a lot of pre-placed Barbarians at the beginning of the game – they can often enslave masses of them! Other than that, they’re there to carve up the other states, really.

    Leader: Hiaoy Kanishka
    Traits: Militaristic, Religious, Commercial
    Starting Cities: - (An unreachable “Kushans” is their only starting city)
    Unique Unit: - (Nomadic civs won’t have unique units)
    Culture: Steppe


    Parthia
    Spoiler :

    Parthia is your extremely powerful foe to the West. They have all the best parts of the Steppe civs, along with all the best parts of a sedentary civ! (with a lot of starting cities to boot!) Luckily for them, the map doesn’t go further West, so they won’t be wasting all their resources over there, and can focus on bringing down the Bactrians, or whoever else takes their fancy.

    Leader: Shah Ashk
    Traits: Militaristic, Expansionist, Scientific
    Starting Cities: Too many to name here! Including Ctesiphon, Tus, Susa, to name but a few!
    Unique Unit: I’m undecided on whether they get one, really. Probably will have some kind of cavalry or something, to compensate on the fact that they only start with a couple of nomads.
    Culture: Steppe (somewhat sedentary)


    Satavahana
    Spoiler :

    A pretty powerful kingdom in the Northern Deccan. There’s not much to say, really. They’re sandwiched between the north and south, with a little room to expand. They could also expand via their navy, if need be. Although technically a northern state (IIRC), they’ll play like the southern states.

    Leader: Raja Satakarni
    Traits: Scientific, Commercial, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: Prathisthan, Suparaka, Amaravati
    Unique Unit: Undecided.
    Culture: Indian (Southern)


    Pandyan
    Spoiler :

    Your stereotypical Deccan state, these guys start with a reasonable navy, albeit, with nowhere to really expand, especially since they’re sandwiched below the Cholas.

    Leader: Raja Nedunj Cheliyan
    Traits: Commercial, Agricultural, Seafaring
    Starting Cities: Madurai, Korkai
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Indian (Southern)


    Tamraparani
    Spoiler :

    Another southern Indian civ. These guys have it hard due to starting on Ceylon, and having only one city. However, their navy is fairly decent, so they can ship a few colonists off places.

    Leader: ? (Currently Raja Ceylon)
    Traits: Religious, Agricultural, Seafaring
    Starting Cities: Anuradhapura
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Indian (Southern)


    Chola
    Spoiler :

    Chola play like any other Deccan civ, really; limited room to expand, small starting navy.

    Leader: Ventarani Sembiyan Mahade
    Traits: Religious, Commercial, Seafaring
    Starting Cities: Puhar, Urayur
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Indian (Southern)


    Tarim Basin
    Spoiler :

    Another state who are a mix between sedentary and nomadic. They, like the Parthians, have starting cities, and they too can build more settlers and workers. Furthermore, they have pretty much the whole of the Tarim Basin to themselves (although when playtesting, I’ve found those pesky Dayuans planting cities there, too!) They also have all the Steppe unit lines.

    Leader: King Yulin
    Traits: Industrious, Expansionist, Commercial
    Starting Cities: Khotan, Kashi
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Steppe (somewhat sedentary)


    Xiong-Nu
    Spoiler :

    They act like any other nomadic state, although due to proximity, should (in theory) be predestined to attack China.

    Leader: Shanyu Modu
    Traits: Militaristic, Religious, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: - (Starts with an unreachable “Xiong-Nu”)
    Unique Unit: - (Nomads don’t have unique units)
    Culture: Steppe


    Nanyue
    Spoiler :

    This is a hard civ to play as, because they have the Chinese knocking on their doorstep. They only have one starting city, though plenty of room to expand. They do (luckily for them) start with an army, though.

    Leader: Queen Trung Trac
    Traits: Industrious, Religious, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: Co Loa
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Eastern


    Tibet
    Spoiler :

    Tibet is a small civ, which is generally out of the way of everyone else. They’re protected by the Himalayas from most threats, and expand slowly. They use Eastern units, even though they’re in the Steppe culture group (and start with a nomad, too)

    Leader: King Nyatri Tsenpo
    Traits: Industious, Expansionist, Religious
    Starting Cities: Taktsé, Yumbulagang
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Steppe (/Eastern)


    Pyu
    Spoiler :

    The Pyu have a lot of room to expand, although they may feel the brunt of a Chinese attack. An artificial mountain range protects them from any immediate Indian threat.

    Leader: ? (Currently “Governor Pyuu”)
    Traits: Industrious, Commercial, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: Bagan, Halim, Prome
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Indian (a mixture between Northern and Southern)


    Han
    Spoiler :

    The Han are the big boys of the East, although when playing, they often find their meddling ways down south into India!

    Leader: Emperor Wu
    Traits: Scientific, Religious, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: Too many to list! Including Chang’an, Louyang, Xuchang
    Unique Unit: Undecided (probably some kind of Crossbowman)
    Culture: Eastern


    Dayuan
    Spoiler :

    The third Greek state, tiny little Dayuan are going to be better prepared than you’d think to whether the inevitable nomadic onslaught! They’re locked in an artificial alliance with the Indo-Greeks and Bactria.

    Leader: King Mu-Ka
    Traits: Industrious, Scientific, Commercial
    Starting Cities: Guishan, Alexandria Eschate
    Unique Unit: Undecided (almost undoubtedly some kind of supped-up spearman)
    Culture: Greek


    Kangju
    Spoiler :

    Another nomadic state, these guys don’t have the same ready access most do to barbarians, although I’ve seen them enslave plenty still!

    Leader: ? (Currently “Chief Kangju”)
    Traits: Expansionist, Religious, Commercial
    Starting Cities: - (an unreachable capital, “Kangju”)
    Unique Unit: - (Nomads won’t have unique units)
    Culture: Steppe


    Kashmir
    Spoiler :

    Poor Kashmir start the game trapped between the Indo-Greeks and the Himalayas. Still, they’re pretty much the same as any other northern Indian state.

    Leader: ? (Currently “Raja Kamboja”)
    Traits: Expansionist, Scientific, Religious
    Starting Cities: Srinagar, Kashyapa-pura
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Indian (Northern)


    Avanti
    Spoiler :

    Poor old Avanti start the game smack bang in the middle of any Indian action! Although they too play like any other northern Indian nation, they can also go for a cultural victory, since they control the city of Sanchi – which will only be rivalled by the city of Bodh Gaya…

    Leader: ? (Currently Queen Ujjain)
    Traits: Expansionist, Religious, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: Ujjain, Sanchi
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Indian (Northern)


    Kalinga
    Spoiler :

    Again, just like any other northern Indian state. The “special features” of their start is that they start wedged below the Sunga, but also with coastal access.

    Leader: Raja Kharavela
    Traits: Industrious, Religious, Seafaring
    Starting Cities: Parthalis, Kalinga
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Indian (Northern)


    Uddyana
    Spoiler :

    Sort of like the other northern Indian nations, Uddyana suffers due to being on the “wrong” side of an artificial mountain range, right in the midst of Parthian ambitions.

    Leader: Raja Indrabhuti
    Traits: Expansionist, Scientific, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: Swat, Oddiyana
    Unique Unit: Undecided
    Culture: Indian (Northern)


    Arabia
    Spoiler :

    A more peaceful “trader” civ, these guys are pretty out of the way of the action – although this may be a different story if you decide to colonise the Arabian peninsula!

    Leader: ?
    Traits: Expansionist, Commercial, Agricultural
    Starting Cities: Too many to list! Including Ma’rib, Aden, Muscat
    Unique Unit: Undecided (probably some camel-mounted unit)
    Culture: Mediterranean (Arabic)
     
  4. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

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    This is juicy!

    There's a lot to absorb in the description. I've got a lot on my plate for the next couple of days.* I intend to post a more detailed response. I'm sure I can help you with a lot of the blank spots in the Indian culture groups, for example. I'd also be happy to work on tech icons, etc.


    *
    Spoiler :
    I'm in the midst of realigning the meat puppet's routine so as to free up more time for my RL here in the digital cloud. :p
     
  5. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    That'll be brilliant! :)
     
  6. Madeira

    Madeira Chieftain

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    That should be interesting Virote!
     
  7. Cimbri

    Cimbri Chieftain

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    Hey Virote, have you considered a way to implement the almost endemic civil war and dynastic struggles that plagued the Indo-Greeks? It would be a very interesting thing to include.
     
  8. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I'm afraid I haven't. The only thing I can think of would be to use a couple of governments, and make the first with really high war wariness, but a few things such as +1 gold per tile, and another which is really bad with no war wariness, so they'll be constantly switching...
     
  9. wolf_brother

    wolf_brother Chieftain

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  10. Rob (R8XFT)

    Rob (R8XFT) Ancient Briton Super Moderator

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    This sounds great :).

    I've just done a new Greek leaderhead if you're interested in using it in the mod.
     
  11. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I could make some Greek-specific improvements cause these "rebellions" - the Bactrians also had dynastic troubles, IIRC

    DL'd!


    Now for one of the gameplay features, the Nomads, who IRL played a pivotal role in the fate of the Indo-Greeks.

    Firstly, Nomads can't build additional cities, but have an unconquerable starting city in the corner of the map (initially, they had none at all, but this seemed to cause crashes). All units are, however, free. Not that this matters too much, as you'll see below.

    Nomads start with some really strong "Nomad" units. These are their kings, but they are easily the strongest units of the game, with 6 for both offense and defense. The "fully" nomadic states, such as the Scythians and Saka, start with 5 nomads. The more "sedentary" nomadic states, such as Parthia, Tarim and Tibet, start with one or two. Nomads are one of the only "non wheeled" units of the game, so they can traverse the mountains, and strike pretty much anywhere!

    Now, the real meat 'n' veg. The nomads can't build units, apart from through their cities which are surrounded by impassable terrain, right? Well, all steppe units enslave. There is a whole line of units which can then be enslaved, making for five units in total, each one enslaving the next. The fourth unit is a fairly weak hidden nationality unit which can also traverse mountain tiles. If this unit enslaves, it enslaves another nomad. To top it all off, most of the Steppes are littered with pre-placed barbarians, ripe for enslaving.

    From playtesting, the nomads sometimes work as planned, but sometimes don't - sometimes they seem to be just sitting ducks. However, when they get involved, they can really carve things up!

    So, that's how nomads work.
     
  12. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

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    IIRC, the RFRE mod uses the slave revolts = pollution thing.
     
  13. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    :bump: Well, time to pipe up some interest in this again :D

    Here is a "basic outline" of the scenario. Basically, it's playable, but nowhere near complete. Improvements/wonders, governments, 'pedia/scripts/lables, all need to be worked on.

    Currently, I'm unhappy with the tech tree, and the fact that you have to research some of the basic units. The problem is, without this, there would be pretty much no point in researching. This is a 300 turn scenario for what amounts to about 190 years, and I'm not sure what else to include. So much help is needed regarding the tech tree. There are also a lot of dead-end techs at the moment, whilst things such as governments and improvements/wonders need to be added/fleshed out (there IS a basic improvement line available, though)

    Mass regicide is on, with most civs having 3 kings, some (mostly nomads) with more.

    But despite the fact that it isn't finished, it's still fairly fun to play, even if the pace is very slow at the moment... Definitely something which needs to be worked on.

    EDIT: Oh, and I've just realized Rob's leaderhead isn't in yet. I'll put that in shortly...

    EDIT2:
    Spoiler Credits for Indo-Greek Scenario: :
    Credits for Indo-Greek Scenario:

    *The Map:
    Kulade

    *Leaderheads:
    Civarmy s.1994
    Drift
    Embryodead
    Rita Poon
    Rob (R8XFT)
    ShiroKobure

    *Units:
    Aaglo
    Civarmy s.1994
    Dom Pedro II
    Embryodead
    Kinboat
    Kryten
    Odintheking
    Plotinus
    Rob (R8XFT)
    Sandris
    Smoking Mirror
    Utahjazz7
    Virote_Considon

    *Terrain:
    Balthasar
    Keroro


    Don't know who made:
    Leaderheads .Flcs:
    AL2
     
  14. georgestow

    georgestow Proud to be Awesome

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    Looks interesting (have downloaded, but not played yet).
    For greeky buildings, I'd go for *SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT* these conversions I did from Ikariam. *SHAMELESS PLUG OVER*.
    How about a tech called 'Buddhism'?
     
  15. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

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    I'm sneaking a look at the forum in the middle of class. I will have some comments for you tomorrow. Some techs & maybe wonder ideas.
     
  16. Huayna Capac357

    Huayna Capac357 Chieftain

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    This looks...epic! :eek::eek::eek:

    This, RA's Mesoamerica, and Madeira's Atlantis scenarios are so exciting!
     
  17. RedAlert

    RedAlert Love one another

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    :faint: Where have you been all my life?
     
  18. Takhisis

    Takhisis Would-be overnight hero

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    up yours!
    :nono: pay attention, young man, look straight ahead. Don't distract your classmates... :p
     
  19. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

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    Besides, it's not tomorrow yet. But thanks for the reminder.

    how about this for a start: The Giant Buddhas of Bamiyan (wikipedia article). Towards the bottom of [post=4730563]this post[/post] is a description of how they looked in their prime. I'm not sure of the time frame you envision for the scenario. The Buddhas were built in the 6th c. CE. The kingdom of Ghandara where the Buddhas were built was smack in the middle of the whole Indo-Greek thing. Taxila was one of its main cities.
     
  20. Takhisis

    Takhisis Would-be overnight hero

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    up yours!
    Now it IS tomorrow, at least here :p.
    Should the two Buddhas be a Great Wonder? Or a VP location? Or a +50 gold resource? Or a combination of all of those?
    You could have two separate wonders, Salsal and Shamama (i.e. one for each statue).
    The wikipedia article you cited says that they were built in the 6th century AD. Isn't that a bit too late for an Indo-Greek scenario?
     

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