Would Incas still be overpowered without Quechua?

[Culture Bomb]

If the quechua was removed or nerfed so that it could no longer be used for cheesy rushes, would the terrace + traits still make HC overpowered?

 

[strijder20]

His traits are solid, but Philosophical, Expansive and Organised are very good traits too.
Terraces are good, of course.
So no, it'd still be a great civilization, but not that OP. It's the Quechuas which make them ridiculous given the right start.

 

[MilesBeyond]

They would still be one of the best civs. Excellent traits with, arguably, the best UB is nothing to sneeze at. Not OP, in the sense that on even footing they wouldn't present an insurmountable obstacle, but I think that they'd still be the most viable civ in a lot of circumstances.

But, again, solid traits and a good UB provide a nice boost, rather than guaranteeing victory. The Quecha can, in some scenarios, guarantee victory. So I do think that the Incas would be much better without them (well, not better, but more balanced).

 

[bhavv]

The UB isn't really that great, its just having a slower creative border pop thrown in on top.

EXP can more or less do the same with a half cost granary and monument for the same cost, creative gets the bonus for free. For me having Fin and Ind is the best thing about Inca, and I rarely use Quechas for rushing, but rather for barb defence.

 

[MilesBeyond]

The UB isn't really that great, its just having a slower creative border pop thrown in on top.

EXP can more or less do the same with a half cost granary and monument for the same cost, creative gets the bonus for free. For me having Fin and Ind is the best thing about Inca, and I rarely use Quechas for rushing, but rather for barb defence.

What makes it great, though, is that it's a helpful bonus on a building that will probably be built in every city. Most UBs are either: a) meaningless or niche bonuses on common buildings (Seowon, Totem Pole); b) strong bonuses on rare or specialized buildings (Citadel, Feitoria), or c) Too late to have any real impact (Assembly Plant, Mall). Terraces are the best of all three worlds.

No one's going to win the game because of Terraces, but they are probably the most consistently beneficial UB. Sure, being CRE invalidates them, but HC's not. He's FIN/IND, and Terraces mean that he effectively gets the CRE culture bonus, making it seem more like 2.5 traits.

I certainly agree that Terraces don't give the Incas an insurmountable advantage - other civs can find other ways of matching it - you gave an example yourself, EXP Granaries+Monuments (though that only generates half the culture of a Terrace). But the point is that you'll be hard-pressed to find any UBs that offer a comparable advantage. Sacrificial Altar and Ger are the only ones that I can think of that are even in the same league as it.

 

[lindsay40k]

Most UBs are either: a) meaningless or niche bonuses on common buildings (Seowon, Totem Pole)

Not wanting to derail, but I'd contend that the TP effectively enables three UU's, only one of which requires a resource, and can be something of a lifesaver if whipping Archers following a dagger from the likes of Monty.

 

[rfcfanatic]

Huayna Capac, Pacal and especially Darius are the 3 leaders that MUST be eliminated by the Renaissance era. It's very contradictory to their historical background that they become very advanced during the Industrial/Modern eras.

 

[Windsor]

Quechua is a huge part of why HC is the 2nd best leader in the game. And it's not just the cheesy rushes. Safety from barb archers and the fact that you can build those even with metal connected for cheap HR-happiness makes them very viable. Quechua is a UU that you will almost always get some very good use out of.

 

[Antilogic]

Yeah, even if you aren't rushing you can use the UU to fend off barbarian archers. You can basically avoid researching Archery completely, even if you don't have access to copper, until Alphabet and trade up (either to Iron Working, Horseback Riding, Archery, or whatever else you need to get better units).

I'd rate terraces as a top-tier UB, largely along the same lines as MilesBeyond. No longer do you have to put off growth to get your first border pop, or worry as much about those Creative borders. Just start on the terrace. It turns something that is ordinarily a chore (figuring out my first building in a new city) into a trivial decision.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In a word, no.

It can't even be reliably demonstrated that Inca is overpowered as-is in MP, let alone without Q's. That lack of evidence is telling.

 

[Antilogic]

I think people overrate the Industrial trait, and thus may overrate the Inca a little. They are good, but not that good.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Not wanting to derail, but I'd contend that the TP effectively enables three UU's, only one of which requires a resource, and can be something of a lifesaver if whipping Archers following a dagger from the likes of Monty.

Those civs and their three UUs, eh?

Heh, but I see your point. The TP is certainly not without its uses. But my point is that something like the TP's bonus is only useful in certain circumstances, whereas the Terrace's bonus is useful in virtually every circumstance

I think people overrate the Industrial trait, and thus may overrate the Inca a little. They are good, but not that good.

Agreed on this one. IND is, IMHO, a mid-level trait, and even lower than mid-level if you're a big warmonger who plans on just letting the AI build the wonders while you build soldiers and take the wonders for yourself. In some scenarios I almost think the double-production Forge is more helpful

FIN, ORG, PHI, these are all top level traits in my books. Some would replace PHI with CHA or EXP, and I wouldn't argue too loudly. IND doesn't quite make the cut.

But it's still a pretty good trait, and this is all what combines to make Inca one of the best. Look at a guy like Freddy - great traits, awful UU and UB. Monty's got a phenomenal UB, but underwhelming traits and a UU that in many cases can be a disadvantage (for every one start where you've got no copper or iron, there's ten where you do have them and that erodes most of the advantage while still leaving the unfortunate disadvantage of 5 strength - and when was the last time you did a Swordsmen rush, anyway?). Everyone likes Egypt, but as awesome as War Chariots are, their UB is pretty niche, and both trait sets, while solid, aren't amazing.

That's why HC is awesome. An excellent UB, a UU that some have labelled game-breaking, and a strong trait combination. IND is his weak link, but that's not that much of a weakness.


But I still fundamentally agree that Inca are overrated because, like I said, UB, UU and traits don't decide the game. With two players of equal skill, Toku with a great start would wipe the map against HC with a crappy start.

 

[vranasm]

Quechua is a huge part of why HC is the 2nd best leader in the game. And it's not just the cheesy rushes. Safety from barb archers and the fact that you can build those even with metal connected for cheap HR-happiness makes them very viable. Quechua is a UU that you will almost always get some very good use out of.

who is the first one then?

In a word, no.

It can't even be reliably demonstrated that Inca is overpowered as-is in MP, let alone without Q's. That lack of evidence is telling.

We talk here about SP or MP? I start to be confused... as I saw it, up to you it was mostly about SP and then we have tons of evidence about Inca being overpowered in SP games.

As per MP...that's your business, but I think in RealmsBeyond MP games Inca are banned especially in combination with Exp, since there it's with unrestricted leaders (but I saw them banned in such games with couple of others...egypt, india etc).

But from what I read/saw, there are other very strong combinations of Leader/Nation which could be viewed as overpowered in MP.

Indian empire for example being one of the most sought one.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Yeah, India's pretty rad too. SPI/PHI is a great combination (rapidly bounce back and forth between CS for wicked GP growth and Slavery to whip out important crap), the Fast Worker is one of the best UUs in the game because, while 3 movement isn't quite as useful as it might seem on paper, the fact is that it's a UU that you can build from the start and that never becomes obsolete. That's a big deal. And then you've got the Mausoleum, which isn't an amazing UB, but is still pretty nice (I would put it under the category of "A helpful bonus on a building you wouldn't normally build" category).

All in all, a healthy choice.

But... I'm a big Germany guy. Terrible UU and UB, but I love those traits, man.

 

[Windsor]

who is the first one then?

Ramesses.

 

[elmurcis]

Thanks for this thread... had to think about some crazy combinations... Surya of Inca (+maybe early religion and stonehedge ) - early culture bomber.. Need to try this

 

[TheMeInTeam]

to you it was mostly about SP and then we have tons of evidence about Inca being overpowered in SP games.

AI abuse =/= balance or imbalance. However, from a strict single player only perspective you are correct. There was even a debate to have the option to filter Inca games off of the front HoF tables recently. The AI absolutely can not handle Inca especially on slow game speeds.

RealmsBeyond MP games Inca are banned especially in combination with Exp, since there it's with unrestricted leaders (but I saw them banned in such games with couple of others...egypt, india etc).

AFAIK Realms Beyond games are just planned ahead of time and each is different. Sometimes they'll ban Rome, sometimes they'll ban GLH, etc. Banning Inca is for flavor. You can't come up with a numerical (or in-practice) justification to ban stock Inca in MP. You're going to warrior rush a human who...simply reacts and builds warriors? How will that be cost effective?!

Considering that most MP games don't have AI and disable barbarians, the only possibly utility of a quecha is to either rush an extremely poor player or defend against archer chokes which are also very rare (mostly because it's stupid to try to archer choke a human). This means the entire pull of the Inca civ in unrestricted is...the Terrace? With expansive it's very good, but can you really assert that this is numerically more important than war chariots, the ikhanda, praets, or skirmishers for example? Not really, no.

But from what I read/saw, there are other very strong combinations of Leader/Nation which could be viewed as overpowered in MP.

Indian empire for example being one of the most sought one.

India and Mali top the list IMO. India because they play on fast speeds and the worker movement bonus is a big advantage there, and Mali because they're immune to rushes from everyone except persia and are a serious rushing/choking threat themselves.

Ramesses

SPI-IND + WC is top tier, but it can't touch Inca in SP. In MP it's a bit more iffy which you'd pick. WC is far better for rushing someone while Inca is better otherwise.

 

[Windsor]

SPI-IND + WC is top tier, but it can't touch Inca in SP.

Ramesses can consistently get the AP thanks to the obelisk. That alone makes him #1. WC is just a nice bonus.

 

[Alchemind]

You make a very lofty presumption to start out a discussion.

 

[Windsor]

You make a very lofty presumption to start out a discussion.

Was that directed to me?

In that case there's no interesting discussion. We all know the arguments in favor of Ramesses and HC. We all know what cheesy strategies they can do. In terms of straight SP-power I simply rate Ramesses AP-cheese as so superior that I feel obliged to rate him #1. If someone disagrees I can understand(since HC is very versatile and does AP-victory pretty good too), but I will never change my mind on Ramesses as #1.