Wow, this is HARSH!

[Bleys]

Vanilla, Cyrus, Monarch, Pangaea map. I got a strong start, took out MM early (Immys own Skirmys), which gave me the whole east coast. I then took over the barb cities on the small island to the south, and planted a couple cities of my own there. Anyway, I have no border with other civs other than Hatty, and she has been busy with the rest of the crew to her west, heh, allowing me to get a solid infrastructure set up.

After telling Louis to bugger off a couple times, he finally declares war on me, sneaks a single galley over, and tries to take one of my cities. I smoked him (put axe/spearmen all along the shore, made him try to attack from ship with his swordsman/chariot), and built a few galleys of my own, and struck at the closest spot I could, just west of my new island, yet still across Hattys land (we have open borders), and ended up taking Paris itself! Bonus, he had built the Pyramids there!

So I am quite happy, its going to take a bunch of turns to become "mine" and produce, but playing Cyrus with the Pyramids, and sharing my religion (Confu of course) it should culture up quickly, right?

Suddenly, the very turn I come out of city-unrest, Izzy, who isnt even CLOSE to me, declares war on me and drops this stack right next to Paris!

Well, this kinda sucks. You can see she isnt even attacking from her own territory! I cant go through Louis's land either, because I made peace right after taking Paris, thinking I could stockpile some nice attacks from there. Its still hasnt been 10 turns (7 I think), so I cant even attack that stack! UNFAIR! I have 4 or 5 cat's in Paris too! I could never hold it, but I could make her pay DEARLY, and maybe even buy a turn to get some troops over there and re-take it after I chisel it down, but whatever. I only have 4 galleys, they are up they are still grabbing extra workers to clean off the new island's jungles, bah.

This is kind of lame though. I cant even get to her with my armies quickly, because I have to go through Egypt, and some parts of Monty's, Washingtons, and Louis's areas to get there!

And here I was, heading for Cannons and Riflemen to run over Hatty and rule the world pretty easily, I am already WAY ahead in tech (although I am middle-pack in Power, while Izzy is on top, I just havent needed units too baddly).

However, this does lead to some pretty interesting strats on the Player side. Rolling up through an allies territory that your target doesnt have open borders with really gives you a nice buffer. I currently have a few dozen troops all headed for a good launch area to hit Izzy from Hattys land, but they are 8, 9, 10 turns away.

Bah, I was so loving the idea of switching to US soon with the Pyramids, too, I am playing it CE, and using MMs capitol as a GP farm. LOL, wanna see why he is so tough sometimes? Look at the starts he gets:

So any suggestions? Izzy and Hatty dislike each other, so I am in no danger of her coming across the deserts to get me. She doesnt have Astronomy yet (no one does), so its galleys only, and she cant get to me that way either, actually, without taking Hattys couple of coastal cities. I am losing Paris here, but should I go take it back, or hit her homeland via Egypt. I have enough troops to take it back still on the island thats very close, especially if I try to save what I have in Paris. I whipped the Walls, thinking I was going to cata the stack and let them try to take me (I have a couple HA, a few Axe, and a bunch of Swords in there with the cat's), but then discovered this crazy trick.

 

[Sjaramei]

Do i see horse archers with pinch promos?

Anyway, your city is lost, but if you got a tech lead whats the problem. Steamroll that ancient army with rifles and punish the cracy religion lady properly

And if you want to prevent stuff like that, don't adopt a religion unless you want enemies. No state religion gives you a kind of neutrality if there are multiple state religions around. (Isabella is known for attacking "heathens" so you should have expected this)

Strategy depends on what win you want, domination kill hatty and work your way west. (unless pyramids is crucial to you at this point)
Space adopt free religion and tech like mad?

 

[BurN]

Looking at the map that city isn't going to matter much at this point. Just by landmass you're already settled for an easy space win imho.

 

[Deriem]

What I want to know is why you're attacking with Swords when you're researching Liberalism...

Unless you came back from a tech race struggle, I would think that CS + Machinery would come before Liberalism when planning some neighbourly mischief.

 

[Bleys]

Actually the swords were left overs from taking the barb island. I dont generally bother upgrading units if I dont need to, I would rather just build a new one, and all my new units were on the mainland. The trip was shorter from island to Paris, than from my spot on the coast, through Hattys coastal waters. It was actually overkill, Paris wasnt very well defended, and Washington was also at war with Louis and had also pounded it.

But yes, I was planning to both romp through the west and build a spaceship. I like it that way. Pyramids arent worth the trouble to keep that spot. It was kind of dumb going for it, its what let Hatty sneak a city onto my island under my radar. My tech lead isnt huge, but it was growing. I was actually getting to the "do I want to grind this out?" point, to be honest, and I wanted to try a more competitive spot on a similar map next anyway.

 

[troytheface]

not sure why you didn't raze that city. different continent- with the tech lead.

ol pyramid greed cost you an army, a city and a field victory-

-where good tactics would have given gold and, at worst, some partisons to fight.

however, i know what you mean when those surprise stacks that show up at your door when you've been teching and building-horrifying indeed.

 

[Bleys]

not sure why you didn't raze that city. different continent- with the tech lead.

ol pyramid greed cost you an army, a city and a field victory-

-where good tactics would have given gold and, at worst, some partisons to fight.

however, i know what you mean when those surprise stacks that show up at your door when you've been teching and building-horrifying indeed.

Yeah, should have razed, but then I would have had to schlep all those dudes back on those puny 2-cargo galleys, or go the long way over Hattys land.

Greedy is right on, cant deny it. My lead isnt even that great, looking at the ACTUAL stats, not the ones in my head, I have like 5 Macemen and another 8 cats scattered around, LOL. I have been lazy, because I felt my position was overwhelmingly solid.

In the end, I left a single axe there that was still healing, and retreated my troops toward Hatty, which became Hattys square when Izzy took the city. I could go on about my business, but now I want to smash good ol Izz. I shouldnt have any problems either.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

Hit that stack with those cats and abandon the city. Gift it to one of the other civs so that Izzy can't capture it and start asking for more at the bargain table when suing for peace. You don't need the Pyramids: if you're researching Liberalism you should be pretty close to Constitution for Representation.

Build a bunch of pikes/spearmen backed up by some maces to neutralise the stack as it heads towards your mainland.

 

[Bleys]

Oh man, gift it! I wish I had thought of that! I coulda gave it to Hatty, it borders her land, she would love me forever, right up until I took her new capitol, right before re-taking Paris!

And I cant hit the stack, thats why I posted, heh. Its a flukey thing. I cant declare on Louis again for a few turns (I wasnt even really planning it), and thats where Izzys stack is.

 

[vormuir]

This is probably a coincidence, but Izzy pulled the same trick against me just the other day -- snuck a stack in through a third civ's territory, then surprise-attacked.

What cheesed me was that the other civ and Izzy had different religions. Normally she won't do an Open Borders if there are religious differences.

I don't /think/ the AI is smart enough to finesse that...


Waldo

 

[Solomwi]

Something I've done in similar situations is get a nearby civ to declare. In this case, Hatty or Washington would fit the bill, though if you could have, Louis is ideally placed. There's a decent chance, though by no means a guarantee, that the AI stack will divert from your city with the new declaration and go attack your new ally. It's worked best for me when there's a new ally city very near the stack, but I've seen them march right by me to get to the new target, too.

 

[Bleys]

What cheesed me was that the other civ and Izzy had different religions. Normally she won't do an Open Borders if there are religious differences.

I hadnt made the connection, but before Louis declared on me, he switched off my religion to Izzys. Hmm, does the AI get other civs to declare like that? Did AI-Izzy ask AI-Louis to go to war with me, since she had no connection to my territory at all? She declared almost the instant we had a border she had access too, I bet shes been waiting.

To be honest, I havent had much experience in games like this. I usually play Continent maps, but barbs have been ripping me apart, slowing me way down, so I decided to try a more packed map. I see a lot of Pangaea games on these boards, and it looks like barbs are never a problem. I figured it was easier this way, and it is, lots, with an aggressive start and a good UU, especially.

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

If this is BtS you can be 99% sure that Izzy will keep all her units in one stack, so they should enter your territory before attacking the city. Next turn you can hit them with the catapults.

EDIT: didn't see that Louis's borders encroached on Paris so much. Retreat the catapults and use them later.

 

[DaveMcW]

You get to keep your government civic even if you lose the Pyramids.

 

[tycoonist]

You get to keep your government civic even if you lose the Pyramids.

now that i didn't know, that is incredible

 

[Cookie Crumbs]

You get to keep your government civic even if you lose the Pyramids.

Which version(s) is this? I've done several tests and in BtS at least, this is not the case.

 

[Silence101]

Paris is a minor setback. This looks like a great opportunity to increase your territory.

 

[Bleys]

OK, for the record, in the actual game, I ended up moving my units out, giving up Paris to Izzy, making peace after switching to FR, and building a superior army over the next 30 or 40 turns or so, once the Universities were finished, since Oxford was a priority. I rolled right through Hattys southern lands, and re-took Paris, gaining another Holy City in the process (that makes 3 conquered religion-founding cities, heh). I consolidated that position easily and didnt grind it out, my tech was flying and they kept fighting each other. I have since played another couple half-games. I am really working on Pangaea starts, so I practice them, through around Lib, usually, actually, by then you kinda "know" IMHO.

However, after reading the Pyramids thing, and truly not being able to remember, I checked for a save. I found one right before I took Paris. So I replayed it as before. See, I never did switch to Rep when I took Paris, thinking I had to wait until the city came out of unrest for the effect to be usable. So my next civic move was Free Religion after Lib, and that was the turn after I lost Paris, I think.

Final verdict, yes, I stayed in Rep after losing the Pyramids in Vanilla.

 

[Bleys]

Now wait a sec, I played a couple more turns, and went into anarchy for FR and it was gone, and I was back to the basic first one. I would check it again, and delay Lib a few turns, see if it stays or just poofs after one turn, but its late, and I just got whupped up on my MM on Emp, so maybe tomorrow.