WTP 4.0.2 Published - Community Feedback

[raystuttgart]

I do agree with Link that sometimes "more" is "too much"

Modding just like playing to a huge degree is simply personal taste.
So sorry if not everything is as you like it - but others seem to like it a lot.

Also about stuff like "fieldworker tools" or "artisan goods":
They were actually intended to also serve a purpose, which is simply not implemented yet:

City Worker Professions also requiring Equipment [OPEN]

Hi guys, I had once considered to have city worker professions also require equipment. This equipment has now also been implemented as goods. ---- We now have e.g. Tools Fieldworker Tools Household Goods Thus e.g. Profession Miner could require (20) Tools Profession Tool Smith could...

forums.civfanatics.com

See, WTP 4.0 is not a "final mod", it will still "in development".
Many of these goods were introduced because I still have ideas / concepts for them.

-------

But again, modding is personal taste.
And since it is a mod everybody can create his own personal version.

 

[Cacaso]

First the WTP4.0.2 MOD is great. It's really, really cool, I really enjoyed playing it.

Now I'd like to discuss a few points about game balancing.

- While Coca leaves are in demand in the internal market, other products such as maple sirup and rubber (which are the middle income direct cash crop), there is no internal demand in the market. I think they should have.

- I think that the milk product should be demanded in the internal market, with a price of around 4 or even 5, while selling milk in Europe/Africa should have a value of zero or just 1.
because I think it's kind of ahistorical, that milk was transported from the new world at that time, there was no refrigeration technology.

- Still in relation to milk, I think it would be interesting if the Master Cheesemaker could stop working in the stable, so that there would be 4 slots available for the expert milkmaid to work producing milk. So cheese production could move to another existing building (as there are no spaces available on the city screen to create new buildings). I think the Master Cheesemaker could be put to work in the "Vintage house" building that currently produces wines, so the building could be renamed "Fromagerie and Vintager house" and then produce wines and cheeses in that same building.

- I think that the tier 3 product "Chocolate" has a low value, because it usually costs around 16, I think this value is very low because Cocoa can usually be sold in Europe for around 10/9/11 (usually 9 or 10) and sugar can be sold in europe for about 3/4 (usually it is 4), as the chocolate to be produced consumes 1 Cocoa + 1 sugar which together could be sold for 9+4=13 (when Cocoa is at a low price) or even 10+4=14, while chocolate is sold in Europe for 16. So you need to build a building, bring a master confectioner to have an additional profit of just 2, and if the player chose to take that same sugar and transform it
in rum the profit would be greater because cocoa could be sold in europe for about 10 and rum for about 10.
I think that the low price of chocolate is something unbalanced that needed to be increased so that it could go back to being an interesting product to produce. I think it could sell for 20/21 or even 22 to be more interesting than producing Cocoa+RUM.

- Regarding the Lined Goathide boots, I think the idea of using Goatskin+Wild bird feathers, very good because in the current way it is Goatskin+wool is a NOGO for me. I think the price of lined Goathide boats should be increased a lot, because it is a product that consumes two resources to produce. at the current price which is 8/9 (usually 9) it has the same price as pig leather aprons and leather goods which are produced consuming only one resource.
I think Lined goathide boots need to cost about 14/15 to 16 for it to be interesting to produce, otherwise many players will prefer to choose other production chains than Goat/gostskin/Lined Goathide boots. I think that if it follows a price close to Lined leather Coats, maybe it will become interesting to produce. because currently I prefer to raise pigs/cow and their chains and also lined leather coats, to produce lined goathide boots, I think the price is very low and not worth the investment, it is preferable to invest in another production chain.

- Clay is a bit rare in the current game. it is very necessary but only available in marshland hills and wetland hills. I think one way to try to solve this issue is to differentiate the Peak according to the base terrains under it. because currently all Peak (whether in grassland, plains, prairie, tundra, ice, desert ...) always produce Ore/Coal/stone.
I think we could give peaks a different distribution of resources according to the base tarrain, my initial suggestion would be:

Peak base terrain ice, tundra, taiga = produces Ore/Coal/stone and also peat/clay/mapple sirup
Peak base terrain grassland/wetland = produces coal/stone and also grape
Peak base terrain savanna/marshland = produces Ore/stone and also Coca leaves
Peak base terrain plains/praire = produces Ore/Coal/stone and also clay
Peak base terrain desert/shurubland = produces Ore/Coal and also salt/clay


- if the suggestion to add different goods based on peak's base terrain is accepted. I think Coca leaves should leave the savanna hills and be exclusive to the savanna/marshland peak, as coca is grown at high altitudes and with humidity. then something else could be put in its place in the savannas hills.


- I think the building market could have 4 jobs where it would be possible to produce Household goods and Fieldworker tools using more combinations of Hardwood, exotic wood, pigskin, goathide. to make the production of these goods easier, to smoothen the eventual future addition of the need to use such goods so that the units can work on the tiles/buildings part of the concept "City Worker Professions also requiring Equipment "

at the moment
Hardwood + pigskin > Fieldworker tools
exotic wood + goathide > Household goods

So it would change to:
Hardwood + pigskin > Fieldworker tools
Hardwood + goathide > Household goods
exotic wood + pigskin > Fieldworker tools
exotic wood + goathide > Household goods

That way it would be more accessible, since Hardwood is a little rarer than exotic wood.

 

[raystuttgart]

... there is no internal demand in the market.

There actually is by e.g. Indentured Servants, Slaves, Criminals, ...
Which is more or less also historically correct since it was not widely used by common people but mostly by Natives and Slaves.

- I think that the milk product should be demanded in the internal market,

That has already happened internally for upcoming WTP 4.0.3.
There was a long discussion about it in discord.

- I think that the tier 3 product "Chocolate" has a low value

I will check it.
Edit: Increased the price a bit.

Regarding the Lined Goathide boots, I think the idea of using Goatskin+Wild bird feathers

Already implemented internally.
Just not yet published.

Clay is a bit rare in the current game

It is actually an issue of the Maps, for some reason they lack Hills for Marsh and Wetlands ...
It was discussed several times, but maps have simply not yet been adjusted accordingly.

- if the suggestion to add different goods based on peak's base terrain is accepted.

No it is not.
I really do not like it.

----------

So it would change to:
Hardwood + pigskin > Fieldworker tools
Hardwood + goathide > Household goods
exotic wood + pigskin > Fieldworker tools
exotic wood + goathide > Household goods

Once the concept for City Worker Equipment will get implemented I will consider it.
Currently however we are doing mostly just a bit of maintenance and bugfixing - so no big feature development.

Most of us more or less currently take it slow with modding - maybe in a few months full scale development will start again.
Personally for example I am currently taking a bit of time for actually playing games again.

 

[Nightinggale]

I'm really just overwhelmed by the huge number of extra goods and professions to a point that I find them detrimental to gameplay, for a variety of reasons:

This was my biggest concern when releasing 4.0. I feared new players getting overwhelmed and while I did some upgrades to colopedia, they most certainly aren't enough. I did the changes, which could easily be added while I skipped the parts, which would require code rewrites (hence take much longer).

See, WTP 4.0 is not a "final mod", it will still "in development".

This is what made us decide to release despite imperfections. It had been almost two years since the last release and at some point we have to release even with imperfections or we will never release. A combination of our own assumptions and feedback will give us insights to what needs to be improved. A thread like this one does indeed give some insights to what might need more improving than we realize.

Most of us more or less currently take it slow with modding - maybe in a few months full scale development will start again.
Personally for example I am currently taking a bit of time for actually playing games again.

Same here. As such as I would like to complete a whole bunch of stuff ASAP, for at least a month prior to 4.0 I was in crunch mode fixing all the "must have this" issues (ok, I wouldn't say I did it all alone, but). After the release I jumped on all the reports and in particular the crash reports have been hard. Tracking down the cause of a crash can be like looking for a needle in a haystack and it's even harder if the crash can't be reproduced reliably. The crash fix in 4.0.2 was the game assuming all terrain features to be forests and then it crashed when it tried to play the bird animation on a storm (at least it was a storm in my test case). That took ages to figure out due to being that random and it was mentally draining to think that hard about the problem. In the end I found it because the pattern of the reports was random crashes while moving and I started wondering what could be completely random while moving: bird animation. It seems obvious in retrospect, but it wasn't at the time, particularly because the crashing savegame I tested on crashed when founding a colony.

I need to mentally recharge before being that productive again. I haven't done anything today and I don't think I really did anything yesterday either (sorry to say that). However my mind still works and today I realized the code I'm currently writing needs to be split up more as that makes testing it easier. We don't want code, which can't be tested. Sometimes it is healthy to take a break and look at the problem from a distance rather than staying in the middle of it the entire time.

Despite all this talk about relaxing, we will get back to modding a lot again. It's just... we can't do that 365 days a year.

 

[Jaded1]

I'm seeing a lot of negative comments. I honestly love it. I took me a few goes to get comfortable with the new goods, terrain and professionals. But I've come to realize the value of bringing goods from Europe. Sure you'll make little profit but by fulfilling a cities demands you can support a larger population. And as you expand and begin to make the goods yourself you can move away from a European reliance.(As happened in our actual history) Yes you may get a bunch of useless people showing up on your docks.. But you're making so much more money you can afford to order exactly what you need for your cities. And then just send the superfluous professionals to another town to act like a regular colonist till you have use for them in the future. And lastly this game is not Civ. You can use money to pay for what goods you're missing so you can complete a building. You don't need to spend 100 turns looking for clay when you can just pay the difference. And if needed you can always order a shipment from Europe.

I do look forward to future updates as always. But I'm far from disappointed with the current build. Once again thank you Mod team for all your work.

 

[Cacaso]

I will check it.
Edit: Increased the price a bit.

This is great if the chocolate reaches a price higher than 19 it will be very interesting to produce, as it will have a fair price when compared to Cocoa+Rum and will still supply internal market.

Already implemented internally.
Just not yet published.

and the question of price? will it grow a lot? for something around 14 to 16, if not hardly any player will be interested in getting this chain from Goat>Goatskin+wild bird feathers>Lined Goathide boots. because you could get other chains that don't use two resources or similar prices.

Ray later I ask you to analyze this again, I'm just reinforcing because this is a chain that has more or less the same prices as other chains like cow>cowhide>leather or pig>pigskin>leather aprons. but spending two resources to form one. so the goat chain is disadvantaged.

Once the concept for City Worker Equipment will get implemented I will consider it.

this is great, thanks ray.


Something I had forgotten to write about in the post above about balances, is in relation to Charcoal/powder building.

Since this building (powder make house and evolutions) only has 3 tiers, I would suggest increasing the current number of slots in the third tier of this building from 4 slots to 5 slots. As the building has a +50% charcoal effect, if the player chooses to have 2 master charcoal burners, with this +50% effect they will produce enough to support the work of 3 master powder makers within the same building, within the same city. I think this would be good because it would simplify the use of this building, in addition to what would be very intuitive for the player to arrive at this 2:3 ratio, so that all the charcoal would be transformed.

 

[dirle]

I looked at the complexity introduced as a stepping stone towards even a more refined and fulfilling gaming experience and the modders have notified that this was a release that was not really planned, as they worked for a long time and still have more work to do. This is a gift to us, to start enjoying the fruits of their labor and to see where this mod is going.

I honestly think the current path this project is on is an amazing one, from ship overhauling system that makes pretty much every ship count, to amazing terrain/sea features, along with more intricate settlement management, all that makes for far more interesting and fun playing sessions, even when you have to dig for info in Colopedia and get accustomed to the newly introduced mechanics and so on. (edit) And the music is fantastic!

Sure, there are some rough spots, that may seem too much, but the work is still in progress and I am mighty glad they are willing to give their time towards creating this amazing mod. If you look over the forum, you can see the team involved in all the aspects that people bring feedback on. This is a very important aspect, that the modders are involved and keep working on this.
I believe that what looks to be negative feedback is more of an inquiry on what is going on as it looks rough in certain places. And if I'm wrong and they don't like it, then that's on them and they can choose not to play it.

I love it! I love what they are doing and want to do and can't wait for the even more features that will be brought over ... in time, as they are people with lives and this is their passion project and not their livelihood.

 

[Link Gaetz]

I'm seeing a lot of negative comments. I honestly love it. I took me a few goes to get comfortable with the new goods, terrain and professionals. But I've come to realize the value of bringing goods from Europe. Sure you'll make little profit but by fulfilling a cities demands you can support a larger population. And as you expand and begin to make the goods yourself you can move away from a European reliance.(As happened in our actual history) Yes you may get a bunch of useless people showing up on your docks.. But you're making so much more money you can afford to order exactly what you need for your cities. And then just send the superfluous professionals to another town to act like a regular colonist till you have use for them in the future. And lastly this game is not Civ. You can use money to pay for what goods you're missing so you can complete a building. You don't need to spend 100 turns looking for clay when you can just pay the difference. And if needed you can always order a shipment from Europe.

I do look forward to future updates as always. But I'm far from disappointed with the current build. Once again thank you Mod team for all your work.

I'm aware of this. Many games I played (had a bunch of early ones I gave up on) I ended up sending my first privateer to Port Royal to buy 200 clay, which is a bit silly when you think about it. And even in v3 I would often reset colonist specialties and send them to school, so that's nothing new.

 

[raystuttgart]

I looked at the complexity introduced as a stepping stone towards even a more refined and fulfilling gaming experience ...

Basically that is what WTP 4.0 was about: Create the base for more interesting trade and economy management.
E.g. for future concepts like "Actual Triangle Trade" or "City Workers require Equipment" or "Foreign Market Events".

Also I still believe that WTP 4.0.x generally is the best release we ever had considering gameplay.
However it was simply too big for a single release - a mistake we will hopefully not repeat again.

-------------

To explain:
For almost 2 years we were simply not able to release due to lack fo resources to e.g. fix bugs or finish implementations.

After WTP 3.0.1 the team had fallen apart again, like with every previous release ... people disappeared for months or even years or even forever.
Corona and private situations of team members had not neccessarily made things easy either. There was a lot of private challenge in these 2 years ...

It was harder than most players may realize to actually finish and publish this release successfully.
Thus I am really proud that in the end we came together again and worked hard as a team to achieve this.

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... the modders have notified that this was a release that was not really planned, ...

It was planned as such, but it was not fully finished. We knew about e.g. Colopedia not being finished and were fully aware of possible community complaints ...
But pressure from community had become so high that we decided to give it a try: Also motviation internally had really suffered without a release.

I stil think it was simply the best choice for the mod and prevented a lot of frustration.
The alternative would have been to risk the death of the project.

------------

So yeah, it may be hard for some player so understand that a mod is simply "never done" and sometimes things may not go smoothly so compromises may need to be made.
In modding there is always still something to improve and always still some concepts that are not yet implemented ... and there is not enough time and motivation for all of it.

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This is a very important aspect, that the modders are involved and keep working on this.

Our energy and motivation has run dry. My own motivation to mod and even to read in the forum is extremely low.
I definitely do not want to mod anything big for the next months - at most some bugfixing and small balancing corrections or small improvements.

Throwing more work and complaints on people that are currently wasted does not really help much. All it may do is to have them quit or at best take long time outs.
What might help though is to start contributing in a self responsible way e.g. creating a branch of "develop" and becomming a modder / supporter yourself.

--------------

We are again in a typical after release phase, where the only thing that matters is to keep the team together and letting it recover again.
Team is wasted from "crunch time" the weeks before release and community has endless questions, bug reports, complaints, suggestions, ...

Most of the team members feel like we achieved a milestone now and actually now also deserve a break.
Community however somehow seems to believe that we were just lazy for not having finished e.g. Colopedia.

All of the team members are aware that the mod is not yet finished and we still have to keep developing maybe for years.
Community sometimes seems to believe that this was now the "final release" and everything needs to be discussed, added or changed now ...

Modding is a marathon, it is not a sprint.
And right now we simply have to slow down the pace.

---------------

Feedback we can use to make the mod better is useful, do not misunderstand me.
We are also working internally already on WTP 4.0.3 and improved a lot of already.

If you have constructive critism bringing actual realistic suggestions or even offer to help, great.
But complaining about things not yet finished or not yet perfectly balanced is currently not helping.

---------------

Hopefully we may have WTP 4.0.3 out in a few weeks - so please have a bit of patience.
Many things that community repeatedly complains about are already fixed there.

With WTP 4.0 we published a beta that still requires work to be invested .
Thus we will keep publising updates for it. - It is kind fo the nature of modding to keep improving.

 

[raystuttgart]

and the question of price?

I checked and improved Yield price balancing again today.
Since many of the concepts had changed a lot over the last 2 years it was not up to date.

It is simply something that also requires a bit of time and patience - which I did not have the last 2 years.
I was too busy with implementing / fixing stuff to really concentrate on balancing details.

Since I have stopped implementing new features (for now) I may check balancing a bit here and there.
It will also make it a bit easier for the rest of the team to e.g. work on Colopedia and fixes.

 

[Jaded1]

I'm aware of this. Many games I played (had a bunch of early ones I gave up on) I ended up sending my first privateer to Port Royal to buy 200 clay, which is a bit silly when you think about it. And even in v3 I would often reset colonist specialties and send them to school, so that's nothing new.

You lost me. Why were you waiting for a Privateer to buy 200 clay from Port Royal for the same price as Europe, when you can get it cheaper in Africa with a regular transport ? I mean I could understand if you bought it and then shipped back Pottery making 10 gold profit(11 if your Clay was from Africa). But if your buying it to build, because you don't have any nearby, you may as well just have payed the difference to complete the building in the queue. It would have been way less hassle.

And lastly I don't understand how you're getting so many unwanted workers. ( That for some reason you're resetting the professions of.) You get a selection of 4 people waiting on the docks.. Unless you're just letting your religious points fill up to give you a random choice all the time. You should be picking whomever serves you best, by selecting them 1 turn before the bar fills.

 

[Link Gaetz]

You lost me. Why were you waiting for a Privateer to buy 200 clay from Port Royal for the same price as Europe, when you can get it cheaper in Africa with a regular transport ? I mean I could understand if you bought it and then shipped back Pottery making 10 gold profit(11 if your Clay was from Africa). But if your buying it to build, because you don't have any nearby, you may as well just have payed the difference to complete the building in the queue. It would have been way less hassle.

And lastly I don't understand how you're getting so many unwanted workers. ( That for some reason you're resetting the professions of.) You get a selection of 4 people waiting on the docks.. Unless you're just letting your religious points fill up to give you a random choice all the time. You should be picking whomever serves you best, by selecting them 1 turn before the bar fills.

I didn't say I wait until I get a privateer to buy clay (for buildings, not pottery), but that's what I ended up using it for, typically having sent it to Port Royal to sell anything that has a significant price difference wrt Europe/Africa (like fur) and/or to buy a pirate frigate before going off to do real piracy. The point is that shipping over boatloads of clay (and stone if needed, although less so now with rock steppes and mountains not being that rare anyway) because there's none to be found in the new world feels silly, regardless of where you buy it from.

I am also aware that you can rush immigration but do you really never get to the stage of not having an immediate use for any of the four immigrants on the docks? That was my point, it's more common now with so many different professions. In the early game you're better off resetting a specialty you don't need given that the mean time for free colonists to learn on the job is ~25 turns or so, rather than waiting for a job to open up some day in a production chain you weren't planning to set up. In the late game they're better off going to college to become gunsmiths/soldiers/statesmen/whatever else. And now when you rush an immigrant they're more likely to be replaced by a new one with an unneeded specialty. Of course this depends on how much you spread out your colonies over different biomes and how many terrain types you have available, etc.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

other products such as maple sirup ... the milk product ... there is no internal demand in the market. I think they should have.

i plan to do it. I hope I will have time before the publication of 4.0.3. but this will depend on the amount of free time, which I have much less in summer than in winter.

 

[canexpthat]

Should native settlements have finite harbor space as well? Currently, they seem to have infinite harbor space.

 

[Nightinggale]

Should native settlements have finite harbor space as well? Currently, they seem to have infinite harbor space.

They do indeed have infinite space right. The reason is that so far nobody taught the AI to plan for such a restriction so for the time being it's allowed to ignore it in order to not mess up really badly.

 

[raystuttgart]

Currently, they seem to have infinite harbor space.

That was done on purpose to avod issues with gameplay and AI.

 

[Jaded1]

Okay, so I let one of my frigates get borrowed by the Royal Navy for a while. When it left it had an Able Captain attached plus experience, but on it's return it was a new unit with no experience or Captain.

 

[HolyHubris]

Huge thanks to the team and all contributors! There are so many new features since I was last playing (3.0.2 release) it's like learning a whole new game. I'm really impressed with the ongoing dedication to this project and the ways it continues to evolve.

 

[Vorpal+5]

I have installed the mod, but I'm not yet playing it, I'm taking my time.
Is it possible to have Steam directly load it, given it is not in the location of a regular mod?

FOUNDING_FAHTER_POINTS_FESTIVITIES_HAPPINESS
is this a "known" typo or can it be a problem? (in GlobalDefinesAlt)

 

[raystuttgart]

is this a "known" typo or can it be a problem? (in GlobalDefinesAlt)

It can not be a problem, because it is also referenced like this in DLL.

Edit:
I corrected the typo both in XML and DLL.
(But as I said, it was completely harmless.)