WTP 4.0.2 Published - Community Feedback

[raystuttgart]

Is there a reason why stagecoach's cargo space was not raised to 2 as it's bit low at 1 for an advanced unit?

It has always been like that in the mod since TAC.
Originally they were basically just added for flavour and to make use of great graphics a team member had created.

At the moment I am not really happy with stagecoaches at all - they are not useful enough considering the investment necessary.
This is why I had come up with this concept to actually make them a bit more interesting by giving them more gameplay: Postal Service

But generally since they can carry only colonists, 2 cargo slots would also be ok for me considering balancing.
On the other side considering immersion Stagecoaches are really small compared to e.g. Wagon Trains or Ships.

Honestly I do not really care about Stagecoaches in my games right now and never use them.
(And even with 2 cargo slots I would not do so ... at least not until they get more gameplay.)

 

[dirle]

But generally since they can carry only colonist

Colopedia says it can carry military units as well

Spoiler Stagecoach :

 

[raystuttgart]

Colopedia says it can carry military units as well

True, should have said "only Human Units".

 

[Brosso B.]

It is not a "vicious cycle" since you can easily end it by producing either Happiness or Law.
Again, it does not keep continously building up / enforcing itself - thus no vicious cycle.

I don't think the definition of a vicious cycle is entirely accurate to this case, but I can't think of a better term to describe the logical conundrum, partly because I think it is so rare. Perhaps a metaphor would be a Perpetual Motion Machine? Closed System of Perpetuity? A system analogous to a circular argument?

Do you understand what I'm trying to say about the strange logic, however?

It's like if you met Tribe A and asked them why they hate Tribe B, they say "because they are our enemy"
Okay... but why are they your enemy?
"Because we hate them"

Or the people of the town are in a panic,
Why are you all panicking?
"Because there is a crisis"
Oh dear, well what is this crisis?
"Can't you see that people are panicking? That is the crisis!"

It's like a comedy skit.

Or imagine two columns connected by a beam, and they are all hanging eerily in the air.
You ask: what is holding up the column on the left?
"It is connected to the right column"
But what is supporting the right column?
"It's supported by being connected to the left column. You've obviously never studied statics."
---

I'd also like to point out that I can't "easily end it" because the city can only support a single citizen atm, and they have to devote their time to catching enough fish to not starve/riot after the slave revolted, which was the whole trigger for them being unhappy to begin with. Considering I've played multiple past iterations of this mod I wasn't expecting 1 slave and 1 freeman to be such a big ask. Hell, I don't even think the first city had negative law or happiness when the 2 slaves revolted in 2 consecutive turns.

People that don't want to learn either by reading in here or Colopedia and expect guides are really not worth your energy.

The entry for African Slave doesn't mention Hunters or Overseers, but it does have a link to servants, criminals and slaves (under game concepts). This entry, however, doesn't mention them either.

e.g. Acquiring slaves may in early game be a bad choice and later in midgame once you are prepared an excellent one.

I suppose so, but it was my King offering this to me, I didn't seek out the slaves. Is my King trolling me?

Posts like this are the reason why I currently stopped modding and take a couple of months time out.

For every bad post you read, make a mental note that there's x10 that of praising posts.

This is the feedback thread. The feedback was a bit frustrated, but that's because that's how I feel about the game situation.
I also had a larger post with feedback, which even included some positives, but oddly that seems to have been ignored.

 

[raystuttgart]

Do you understand what I'm trying to say about the strange logic, however?

It is no "strange logic" actually.
It is maybe just not the logic you may apply.

But it is fact that Crime and Dissatisfaction in a society or City are extremely closely linked.
Crime in cities causes its popuation to become dissatisfied and angry.
But also dissatisfaction in cities causes the crime rate to go up.

Maybe for you this is strange.
For me it is just immersive ...

Is my King trolling me?

The game is simply offering choices thar are not always good to make ... it is just not holding your hand.
So sometimes it is better to refuse choices ... e.g. also when being asked to declare a war or to end a war.

Again, you seem to expect that everything the game gives you is always good and always exactly what you need ....
This is just not the way this mod is designed ... every decision in this mod comes at a price ... good and bad are always balanced.

The mod is designed to really have you think about every decision you make.
Also the challenge in the mod is to learn and understand the new mechanics ... (e.g. "Crime and Law") ...

Because otherwise you will simply make wrong decisions and fail.
If challenging game mechanics that need time to learn is not fun to you then WTP may be the wrong mod for you.

Also in games like e.g. Frostpunk you may fail the first attempts due to wrong decisions ... that is by design.
You are supposed to learn from that and consider to make your strategy better for the next time.

----------

What you are currently doing however is exactly the contrary:

You refuse to learn. Also it seems seem that you do not have fun learning game mechanics.
Instead you simply complain that the mod`s game mechanics are "wrong" and you are "right".

If that is what you want to do, go ahead.
But is not any base that will really make sense to discuss for me, because it is personal taste discussions.

Please accept that the mod is intended to punish bad decisions just like it awards good decisions.
And please understand that the mod is not going to hold your hand to tell you all the time which decision you should make ...

 

[raystuttgart]

but oddly that seems to have been ignored.

I read it and most of it was just complaints about stuff I had already explained ... in many cases even several times.
At some point I do not feel like repeating myself again and I am not motivated to justify and defend modding decisions over and over.

Also it is not the way what you write, but the way how you formulate it ...
It is from the standpoint "I must be right" ... just because things did not work out as you expected.

You simply write in a very frustrated and annoyed way basically accusing me as game designer to be too stupid to design game features properly.
Not a single minute do you even consider the fact that you may actually not have understood the game mechanics and that is actually the reasons you failed.

This basically tells me that you are not the "core audience" who I designed the mod for because you expect "casual game play" that holds your hand.
This mod however is intended for hardcore strategy players that actually like to play complex systems and also accept that failing and a learning curve is part of the game design.

------

As I said, I am currently not motivated for such discussions that basically just come down to: "I do not like what you did."
The good thing in modding is that everybody can create his own mods and create them as complex or casual as he likes ...

But when playing WTP you simply have to expect some complexity and also failures until you learned the new game mechanics and found the best strategies.
Because that is simply what this mod is built for: the challenge of learning the best strategies. If that is not what you enjoy you better play other mods.

------

On discord we e.g. have players that report to have lost games several times on highest difficulties due to bad decisions and that being a reason why they enjoy the mod.
Because from those runs they learned and figured out how they will do it better the next time and thus be more succssful and possibly win against AI.

 

[Isabelxxx]

A quick note about a specific point... if dozens of users since weeks keep reporting frustration, confusion, the same doubts again and again, and have problems finding how things work, maybe it's time to take note of it and applying a bit of auto-critic. (about the in-game help texts and docs)

Using the positive feedback against the negative one doesn't help either. Neither tone policing.

I mean, I not necessarily fully agree with one side or the other, but it's pretty clear to me, if one follows the logical path of most questions, that the mod at the current state lacks proper UI elements and docs explaining how thing works -for anyone who has not been developing it for a year-. Ignoring that fact and getting angry against users for this doesn't help anyone, even if you are right.

And I would also want to point that everytime a developer has to answer here to questions, it's time and energy spent... so it's a variable to consider against "speding more time" polishing the Colopedia. Just saying, because I'm expecting an answer along the lines of "not having time" or "do it yourself", but if you consider the time spent on forums explaining things against the time writing such answers in the HTML files...

Just my 2 cents. Maybe both sides should apply some empathy with each other.

At the moment I am not really happy with stagecoaches at all - they are not useful enough considering the investment necessary.
This is why I had come up with this concept to actually make them a bit more interesting by giving them more gameplay: Postal Service

Fully agree with your thoughts on this Ray, and hope your concept comes to life. Or something else.

 

[dirle]

Using the positive feedback against the negative one doesn't help either. Neither tone policing.

I beg to differ.

No one has the right to come in here and storm in a fit that the mod has UNFATHOMABLE issues! NO ONE!
You are not forced to play this mod and you did not PAY for it.

Tone policing IS necessary when people want to 'vent' when the issues they complain on are already covered in these threads.
You can search the threads and find answers to how things are implemented and why Colopedia is lacking a better support.

IT DOES TAKE TIME and IT DOES NEED SOMEONE TO DO IT.

So either you like and play the mod and find and read about the issues or ask, in a not so demanding tone! and that is that.

I've learned about the game mechanics by playing, by coming here and use the search function in threads and read LOTS of posts or by asking.
Feedback does not mean you have the right to throw a fit. Need I point where that person goes "is this for real?".

What makes anyone think they have the right to berate the modders! What makes you think YOU are special!

MIND YOUR ATTITUDE AND YOUR TONE!

 

[raystuttgart]

... "speding more time" polishing the Colopedia.

...

... that the mod at the current state lacks proper UI elements ...

What do you think has happened the last 2 months internally?
(And why is it necessary to repeat something again that was already noted and discussed a dozen times the last months ...)

-----------

The team has worked massively on improving Colopedia and UI and fixing bugs !
And we have actually also achieved massive improvements ... still this simply takes time and effort ... thus motivation.

-----------

Of course however it is great that somebody so incredibly smart finally tells us how we should do things correcty !
Do you really think all of us 10 team members were so stupid that we did not realize that and YOU need to tell us again?
I am so thankful that we are being advised by smart people ... because otherwise we surely would never have noticed how stupid we were ...

----------

Again:

We are NOT stupid ! We know that Colopedia, balancing and UI need improvments. And we also knew it when we published and even said so.
Still we made the decision to publish anyways since community had been waiting already for 2 years and a huge part of community was playing internal versions already.
After publishing some of us took it a bit slower since we also have public lives but still we continued working on bugfixes, balancing, Colopedia, UI, translations ...
There will even be a release WTP 4.1 coming soon where we are triyng to publish all these improvements.

----------

Ignoring that fact ....

WHAT are we ignoring please?

We already said a dozen times we work on Colopedia and UI and bugfixes and we also kept our word to do so.
When it comes down to misundersandings about game mechanics we take the time to answer - even when people are impolite.

So WHAT do you want more ?

Should we beg for forgiveness that we worked hard for 2 more years to create another major release?
Should we beg for forgiveness to acually have publish now instead of having waited 6 more months?
Should we beg for forgiveness that we are constantly working on improvements and publishing bugfix releases?
Should we beg for forgiveness that we are actually trying to answer to community feedback - even if it is an impolite tone?
...

Or WHAT is it you actually want?
Annoy and demotivate modders so they work less on the mod?
Congratulations, you achieved that goal !

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Seriously, it is really good that I am taking a time out for a couple of months ... because almost every time I come here to check posts and try to answer I want to stay away from community longer.
I am fed up with smart people trying to advise a complete team of 10 people working hard on the mod how modding should actually be done ...

Just my 2 cents.

Please keep them for yourself ... nobody wants them.
As long as you are not investing your own efforts it is not worth those "2 cents" as you call it ...

The team really has no need to be "advised" ...
And I have no need to discuss with ungrateful people ...

-----------

Once you invested only a tiny bit of the effort the team has invested in this mod the last 15 years you may "advise" ...
Once you are actually involved and informed about what is happening and has happened since last release you may "advise" ...
Once you are actually motivated to constructively support the people doing all the work you may "advise" ...

But as long as all you want is to vent air or complain or act smart and presumptious please restrain from it.
Because I am definitely not motivated to cope with that and my only reaction will be answers like this or ignore posts and disappear ...
I can simply use my spare time in better and more fun ways than modding and creating content for ungrateful people ...

------------

Otherwise I have really nothing more to say right now ...
See you in a couple of months once I may be motivated again to cope with ungrateful people from community ...

 

[Nightinggale]

A quick note about a specific point... if dozens of users since weeks keep reporting frustration, confusion, the same doubts again and again, and have problems finding how things work, maybe it's time to take note of it and applying a bit of auto-critic. (about the in-game help texts and docs)

Numbers of people online is not automatically a qualifier in itself. If it was, then we would end up with Boaty McBoatface.

There is one comment I see multiple times and I actually predicted it prior to release. New players gets overwhelmed by the amount of cargo types. The counter argument is that it's fine once it has been learned, but I will still argue the current learning curve is too steep. Civilization solved this with a tech tree, which makes the game start simple and then new stuff gets added one by one. It makes the learning curve much more gentle. The issue with this approach is that we asked for tech tree concept ideas and so far nobody have come up with anything where we go "that's it". It's still the plan to do something like that if we can figure out the right gameplay concept. The technical solution is already known (designed for speed).

So if somebody feels overwhelmed by all the various cargo types, the easy solution is to post that half or more should be removed, but that's not a solution we can accept because we wouldn't add something just to remove it.

You can search the threads and find answers to how things are implemented and why Colopedia is lacking a better support.

IT DOES TAKE TIME and IT DOES NEED SOMEONE TO DO IT.

This is the key to many of the "why haven't you done this yet?".

You simply write in a very frustrated and annoyed way basically accusing me as game designer to be too stupid to design game features properly.

This is something I will never understand. The modders work on a mod for 10-15 years and it has been improvements every single time and then when a new feature is added, people assume the modders plan to destroy the mod and make it unplayable. Sure people can provide constructive feedback and it is usually considered if it is provided in a reasonable way.

The biggest problem isn't that somebody wants something altered. The problem is that people want change without knowing what the change should be and/or when told it won't be changed, they continue. Whenever this happens, it somehow ends up as people vs Ray rather than the modding team as a whole. Don't try to single out individual modders like that.

The team has worked on improving Colopedia and UI.
And we have actually also achieved massive improvements ... this simply takes time ...

On top of what has already been done, I'm wondering what to do in the future. I wrote about making the GUI rely more on C++ rather than python. Often when there is a coding issue or limitation in the GUI, it comes down to some limitation related to the python implementation or python interface. Python is an almost 20 year old design, first from the original civ4, then with expansions, colonization and for 15 years various modders. Redoing problem code from scratch will hopefully be able to solve a lot of the known issues. Moving code to C++ rather than python makes it easier to do all sorts of automated testing and analysis to catch bugs.

The main problem here is again time. I'm also looking into redesigning the network interface to try to reduce the risk of OOS issues and I'm fixing issues, which needs to be fixed prior to the next release, among other things. I can't do it all at once. Yes I do try to forward tasks to other people and other people do tasks on their own, but still there are way more tasks than there are people who can receive tasks. As a result we effectively have a queue of "we want to do this" and then it's a question of priority when deciding what to do. Right now I mostly do tasks, which I consider important for the next release, which is mainly bugfixes, changes to the savegame to avoid breaking savegames in the future and other stuff like that.

 

[Jaded1]

Wow, some people need to go back and play the horrid un-modded Civ 4: Colonization. Or just go back to TAC or R&R versions of this mod. Because the rest of us can see that all the new additions have bought balance to the game. No longer do you have to take control of Grassland squares just to build ships and wagons, because now you can use Flax or Hemp at the docks. And Arid/Tundra start locations no longer leave you with cities that have minimal food sources or industries. Thanks to all the new resources you have options which let you stay competitive with players that took over more temperate climate areas. So for majority of us, we love the latest version of the mod and look forward to (But do not need) the next iteration of WTP.
And as far as Python vs C++. This is a mod, not a complete rewrite of the entire game. So if you want to spend the time rebuilding the entire game from scratch, go right ahead. Then you can start your own forum about that game. And leave this one to people sending feedback on gameplay, and not their personal opinions on how this version of the mod should have turned out.

 

[Nightinggale]

And as far as Python vs C++. This is a mod, not a complete rewrite of the entire game. So if you want to spend the time rebuilding the entire game from scratch, go right ahead. Then you can start your own forum about that game. And leave this one to people sending feedback on gameplay, and not their personal opinions on how this version of the mod should have turned out.

The GUI is just a fraction of the python files and the python files are a fraction of the entire codebase. Redoing the GUI is nothing compared to restarting from scratch making a new game. Besides the plan is to redo the screens with known issues and less so redoing every single one of them.

I wouldn't mind if we would make a game from scratch, but if I look at what has happened during the last 10 years since I started modding, if the work from all the groups I have been in is combined, it would still not be enough to make a standalone game on the scale of WTP. In other words restarting from scratch isn't realistic, at least not unless the modding team grows significantly.

As for people providing unconstructive criticism, why bother? It will not get you anywhere. I purposely added a link to the thread about tech tree ideas and so far I have noticed nobody replied to that one yet. Yeah it's a tough one to figure out, which is why we haven't done it yet.

 

[raystuttgart]

To to prevent us from having to repeat it again and again and again ... here I post it once more what was already said several times:

Basically that is what WTP 4.0 was about: Create the base for more interesting trade and economy management.
E.g. for future concepts like "Actual Triangle Trade" or "City Workers require Equipment" or "Foreign Market Events".

Also I still believe that WTP 4.0.x generally is the best release we ever had considering gameplay.
However it was simply too big for a single release - a mistake we will hopefully not repeat again.

-------------

To explain:
For almost 2 years we were simply not able to release due to lack fo resources to e.g. fix bugs or finish implementations.

After WTP 3.0.1 the team had fallen apart again, like with every previous release ... people disappeared for months or even years or even forever.
Corona and private situations of team members had not neccessarily made things easy either. There was a lot of private challenge in these 2 years ...

It was harder than most players may realize to actually finish and publish this release successfully.
Thus I am really proud that in the end we came together again and worked hard as a team to achieve this.

------------


It was planned as such, but it was not fully finished. We knew about e.g. Colopedia not being finished and were fully aware of possible community complaints ...
But pressure from community had become so high that we decided to give it a try: Also motviation internally had really suffered without a release.

I stil think it was simply the best choice for the mod and prevented a lot of frustration.
The alternative would have been to risk the death of the project.

------------

So yeah, it may be hard for some player so understand that a mod is simply "never done" and sometimes things may not go smoothly so compromises may need to be made.
In modding there is always still something to improve and always still some concepts that are not yet implemented ... and there is not enough time and motivation for all of it.

------------


Our energy and motivation has run dry. My own motivation to mod and even to read in the forum is extremely low.
I definitely do not want to mod anything big for the next months - at most some bugfixing and small balancing corrections or small improvements.

Throwing more work and complaints on people that are currently wasted does not really help much. All it may do is to have them quit or at best take long time outs.
What might help though is to start contributing in a self responsible way e.g. creating a branch of "develop" and becomming a modder / supporter yourself.

--------------

We are again in a typical after release phase, where the only thing that matters is to keep the team together and letting it recover again.
Team is wasted from "crunch time" the weeks before release and community has endless questions, bug reports, complaints, suggestions, ...

Most of the team members feel like we achieved a milestone now and actually now also deserve a break.
Community however somehow seems to believe that we were just lazy for not having finished e.g. Colopedia.

All of the team members are aware that the mod is not yet finished and we still have to keep developing maybe for years.
Community sometimes seems to believe that this was now the "final release" and everything needs to be discussed, added or changed now ...

Modding is a marathon, it is not a sprint.
And right now we simply have to slow down the pace.

---------------

Feedback we can use to make the mod better is useful, do not misunderstand me.
We are also working internally already on WTP 4.0.3 and improved a lot of already.

If you have constructive critism bringing actual realistic suggestions or even offer to help, great.
But complaining about things not yet finished or not yet perfectly balanced is currently not helping.

---------------

Hopefully we may have WTP 4.0.3 out in a few weeks - so please have a bit of patience.
Many things that community repeatedly complains about are already fixed there.

With WTP 4.0 we published a beta that still requires work to be invested .
Thus we will keep publising updates for it. - It is kind fo the nature of modding to keep improving.

 

[Vorpal+5]

Minor UI suggestion, would it be possible to output in one of the log (say chat log, it is empty?) all minor events happening, like how much I sold on the market, for each town? I like to know, but I have to wait patiently it is outputted on the screen progressively, with the log one could consult it at his leisure.

 

[Brosso B.]

You can search the threads and find answers to how things are implemented and why Colopedia is lacking a better support.

My point is only that I don't think it's a fair expectation for the average user to go to those lengths to understand your game. Or at least don't be surprised when a lot of people won't. And I didn't complain that the colopedia lacked support, I was using that as a reason for me not knowing about slave Hunters or Overseers. The reason for lacking support is beside the point.

You are not forced to play this mod and you did not PAY for it.

What point is this supposed to be making, though?

Please keep them for yourself ... nobody wants them.

Except the entire reason for this thread is to ask for feedback, and it reads as if isabel is walking on eggshells just to avoid confrontation to boot.

Of course however it is great that somebody so incredibly smart finally tells us how we should do things correcty !
Do you really think all of us 10 team members were so stupid that we did not realize that and YOU need to tell us again?
I am so thankful that we are being advised by smart people ... because otherwise we surely would never have noticed how sutpid we were ...

This is just projection. I've had much more aggression or condescension directed at me than I have at anyone else. Not that I think you should stop if you're enjoying yourself. Knock yourself out.

This is something I will never understand. The modders work on a mod for 10-15 years and it has been improvements every single time and then when a new feature is added, people assume the modders plan to destroy the mod and make it unplayable. Sure people can provide constructive feedback and it is usually considered if it is provided in a reasonable way.

I've made one rude comment about the crime/unhappiness circular argument, which is coincidentally the one thing I think is objectively, logically flawed. But at the end of the day it's not even a big issue. The bigger issue is about fundamentals like settlers and city density or workable tile radius. But I think the team and I flatly disagree. I did give reasoned arguments for my viewpoints, though.

And leave this one to people sending feedback on gameplay, and not their personal opinions on how this version of the mod should have turned out.

Personal opinions on how this version turned out IS feedback.

Wow, some people need to go back and play the horrid un-modded Civ 4: Colonization. Or just go back to TAC or R&R versions of this mod.

That's literally what I was doing before I saw this thread. I only even downloaded this update with the intention of giving feedback on it, otherwise I wouldn't have.

 

[raystuttgart]

@Brosso B.
My reply here was NOT directed to you.

You missed to write in an appropriate and constructive tone ... but I am already used to frustrated and unfriendly posts.
Your posts had been answered and I had / have actually no more reason to talk about those.

I was pissed about the team being "advised" and lectured AGAIN to work on Colopedia and UI. (Although that is exactly what the team did the last 2 months.)
Because it was not the first time the person I replied to tried to "advise" and lecture other people on how they should spend their time and efforts.

Everything else I also already explained many times and can be read again here.
So I stop repeating myself over and over again ... it is just wasted time ... it seems people do not care to read it anyways.

But I think the team and I flatly disagree.

Exactly.

----------

As I said, otherwise I now take a break from modding. The rest of the team is still active though.
Also WPT 4.1 is planned to be released soon which already brings some improvements to Colopedia and UI.

Thus this discussion is more or less over for me, but feel free to continue discussing without me.
I am however just not interested in being "advised" or lectured how I should spend my spare time.

 

[Taerio]

Initially I found this version of WTP a little overwhelming as there's a lot of new mechanics, but it was so worth learning what was added and how to get it all working, my thanks. I wanted to mention that these mechanics are really pulling the mod in a direction I love, even though they seemed a bit frustrating at first.

The new barracks/naval unit limit led to a much, much better and more tactical revolution defense - rather than just blobbing 40+ units in a city or 2 as I'd normally do.
The shallow coast mechanic led to a more immersive & tactical later game, I actually had a reason to use some of my lower tier ships rather than just hiding them/trading with them in a safe corner of the map.
Galleons are no longer a unit that just do everything better then all the other merchant ships, makes it necessary to use other ships, and on that note I'm so happy Man-O-Wars are buildable!!
Buccaneers are so much fun to use. Maybe a little bit too much fun. I kept abducting Wagon Trains and Colonists from an Allied AI which I found quite honestly hilarious


Something I would love to see in a future update is Armed Natives (and maybe just Native Tribes in general) being a little stronger. Hell, I think I'd die of happiness if they were ever playable on that note, but I know that would take an absolutely insane amount of extra work

 

[dirle]

My point is only that I don't think it's a fair expectation for the average user to go to those lengths to understand your game. Or at least don't be surprised when a lot of people won't. And I didn't complain that the colopedia lacked support, I was using that as a reason for me not knowing about slave Hunters or Overseers. The reason for lacking support is beside the point.

What point is this supposed to be making, though?

Except the entire reason for this thread is to ask for feedback, and it reads as if isabel is walking on eggshells just to avoid confrontation to boot.

This is just projection. I've had much more aggression or condescension directed at me than I have at anyone else. Not that I think you should stop if you're enjoying yourself. Knock yourself out.

I've made one rude comment about the crime/unhappiness circular argument, which is coincidentally the one thing I think is objectively, logically flawed. But at the end of the day it's not even a big issue. The bigger issue is about fundamentals like settlers and city density or workable tile radius. But I think the team and I flatly disagree. I did give reasoned arguments for my viewpoints, though.

Personal opinions on how this version turned out IS feedback.

That's literally what I was doing before I saw this thread. I only even downloaded this update with the intention of giving feedback on it, otherwise I wouldn't have.

To all that *roundabout I can say you are a disingenuous person as you always have this *approach of 'giving feedback' as YOU don't like how things are done.

You're not paying for a product is the reason you don't have the reasonable expectation to have documentation available.
Items that need inquired over, need searched for and posts needs to be read.
You did not check Colopedia for all new units and read about them, hence the *slave situation you found yourself into and all your issues were replied to, explained and pointed at in previous discussions that you deemed not to be bothered to search for and read. And on top of all that, you had the nerve to berate and use a condescending tone.

This is you from before at iteration 3.0 and you need to be called out for it as you did the same thing, where you confuse feedback with personal likes

Release 3.0 has been published - Feedback please here

If you expect something like a "Wiki", then sorry. Nobody has time to create and maintain it. The best we can do for game documentation is Colopedia because it has access to the game data. If somebody updates the xml files, Colopedia automatically updates too. The problem is that adding more...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[raystuttgart]

@dirle:
Let us please simply stop it here.
There is really no point to continue this.

As @Nightinggale correcly already pointed out:

As for people providing unconstructive criticism, why bother?

Everything else will just waste the time of the people that actually like the mod and want to be constructive.
Still thanks for trying to support.

 

[raystuttgart]

I explained many times what I try to achieve in game design ... and I still believe in that vision.
I always knew that some would hate it ... but I also knew that others would love it.

So I really care very little about some haters. It actually proves me right.
But what I care about is people being disrespectful to the efforts of the people contributing to this mod.

Feedback itself is not the issue. It mattters how it is voiced.
So ok, go ahead and critizise... but do it respectfully.

A respectful and polite feedback or question will usually also get answered by the team.
On the other hand however also please do not complain if impolite and disrespectful post do not.

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Also for those who forgot what WTP is intended to be, maybe it helps to repeat it.
If that is just not what you like or want, maybe it is better to play something else.

1. A game does not always need to be predictable. Randomness supports challenge as long as "good luck" and "bad luck" are balanced.
2. Decisions have to matter and "wrong" decisions may be painful. Mastering strategies and tactics are part of the challenge.
3. Never offer a "one solution that rules them all". Decisions must have pros and cons, because otherwise they offer no challenge.
4. Never make compromises in game design that players are just "ok" with because then nobody really cares. Players shold rather love or hate it.
5. Never make the player feel "comfortable", because that is just another word for "bored". Keep him fighting and sweating for his success.
6. Never talk about "fair" or "unfair". World is not "fair" either. If in MP games a player wins by finding a Gold Ressource, so be it. You made his day.
7. Never worry too much about "easy to master" because games that have a steep learning curve and may required lots of trials to learn are often the most fun and keep players engaged longer.
8. ...

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Summary:

The mods I would like to make are not like "chess" - same smooth and elegant rules, once you mastered it, you will beat your oponents almost every time.
The mods I would like to make are more like a "rogue like" - rough, unpredictable, sometimes punishing you for bad decisions, sometimes even unfairly rewarding.

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If you expect a mod that

• never experiments with its game design and thus takes no risk,
• never adds new content to become bigger and more complex,
• never puts you in an unfair situation or somtimes even reward you too much,
• never forces you to take time to reconsider and wants your full attention for small details,
• never makes you feel uncomfortable because no decision you could make is perfect,
• ...

then most likely you will not like my understanding of game design.

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The things I often hear in posts that some players are afraid of, is basically what I want.

• Lots of game features to explore and learn for "hardcore players" --> Check
• Many complex options all valid and with no simple right or wrong --> Check
• Decisions that matter and come with consequences or costs --> Check
• Randomness causing risk that your "perfect decision" may still turn out wrong --> Check
• Sometimes having to take your time for details before ending turn --> Check
• Feeling uncomfortable that you may have done everything perfect --> Check
• Raging at the game if something was "unfair" and jumping happily at huge rewards --> Check
• ...

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Summary:

The game or mod I want to create will take you on a rough ride with highs and lows.
The most important thing simply is : It must not get boring.

As long as most players either hate or love the game design or a feature it I am perfectly fine.
Once people do not really care about the game design or a features, I may get worried.

We could discuss 1000 hours what each of us likes and what he does not like.
In the end each of our personal tastes will still be different.