WW2-Global

[oljb007]

One other thing Rocoteh, did you ever give Germany some option to build heavy bombers at some point? I am a little jealous of Italy's big boys that I see in the pedia. Longer range bombers is actualy what I was wanting.

I been out a while on this thread but am trying to keep some tabs on it. I figure I'll start here. My few cents worth on heavy bombers for Germany. Germany didn't have a "heavy bomber", there strategy was based around medium bombers and fighter/bombers, dual purpose aircraft if you will.

As I recall, germany didn't have anything close to what the allieds fielded in terms of a traditional heavy bomber! As for long range, well I dont know anything about that!

I maybe out of date a little in regards to the history of this topic and possibly what is meant by "heavy bomber"

 

[Hornblower]

Germany didn't have a "heavy bomber", there strategy was based around medium bombers and fighter/bombers, dual purpose aircraft if you will.

As I recall, germany didn't have anything close to what the allieds fielded in terms of a traditional heavy bomber! As for long range, well I dont know anything about that! "

That is true but I have found in my research that there was an obscure German program for a long range "Amerika" bomber. There were various designs ranging from a 4 engined (two engines per engine mount) bomber to a flying boat/bomber to a later jet engined (8 on the back) flying wing. It was to take the fight to the US mainland once the UK had been conquered. Naturally other circumstances intervened as well as the politics in the German aircraft industry that you mentioned.
But as Rocoteh has mentioned we can't really restrict development of later techs to just the allies since the whole scenario is a what if from the first turn. If the Germans did astoundingly well and actually achieved the success that they hoped for with Barbarossa, Battle of Britain etc then I think ultimately we would have seen the things that were on the drawing board come to fruition.
I think that if there was a good possibility of the science being implemented by the country being played it is just a question of where you place it in the tech tree.

 

[Adler17]

When the Luftwaffe was newly formed, General Wever initiated a program called Ural- Bomber. Heavy bomber for strategical purpose. But Wever died by an air crash soon after and the whole program was halted. Only one plane of it was so innovative that it was kept and became reality: The 4 engined, although only 2 propellers, He 177 Greif (Griffon). It came to the troops in 1942/ 43 and had many "childhood" problems. But when solved it was a good bomber. But this plane showed little use as strategic bomber. But in one of that attacks, the operation Steinbock (Capricorn), an attack on London, it had the lowest number of losses. However the plane was more used in the anti ship role with guided missiles.
Another heavy bomber was the Do 217, although also basing on a medium bomber. But this plane was able to launch the heaviest bombs Germany had. Still too few. Also this plane was used in the west mostly against ships. This plane sunk for instance the Italian BB Roma.
Another bombers from the Amerika program are the Me 264 and Do 290, although latter was basing on a bomber of the Ural program. Also the Do 290 came in low numbers to the troops, while the Me 264 had a test voyage 30 km away from New York! I think the morale victory would have been tremendous if the Germans were able to bomb New York only once with only a few planes.
At last there was also the FW 200 Condor, a converted civil plane, which was used as long range sea reconnaissance and attack plane. Churchill called this plane the scourge of the Atlantic.
Most of these planes were kept out of the fightings after D- Day. Then there were no conditions to fulfil a task as the odds because of the allied air superirity were too low. Also the losses could not replaced as fighters were now needed more.
The German strategic bombers were too few to be effective. The factories behind the Ural were secure and also the BoB showed the neccessarity of a strategic bomber. But unlike the British, the German strategy was to use more planes but in a tactical role. The strategic component was not seen by Udet, who followed Wever. So tactical bombers had to fulfil the task of strategic bombers. In the Vietnam war BTW, the US used strategic bomber for tactical purpose and tactical bomber for strategic tasks. A friend of mine would say nobody ever learnt from history...
However even these few bombers could have crippled the Russian economy very drastical: The main energy source of Russia were three great turbines in hydropower stations. These turbines were made by AEG. A single strike on them in 1941, 1942 or at last 1943 would have lead to a significant reduction of Russian production. I do not think the Russians could have replaced that turbines so fast since I have severe doubts that AEG delivered new turbines so fast... The Russian would have been able to stop the Germans but not to repush them so fast. Surprisingly this was not considered by the Germans before the end of 1944! But not surprising if you consider it was a junkie leading the luftwaffe (Göring was on Opium since the time of ww1).

Adler

 

[Rocoteh]

Yes, I am afraid you have a lot more editing to do to add wonders.
The German AI at demi-god level, maximum aggression, just finished razing EVERY French city in mainland Europe, except for Lyon.
Add to that a couple Spanish cities and some Italian cities that were recaptured from the French, and the Germans are so far razing about 85% of all cities they capture.

On a different tack in the game, the Japanese position has been most interesting from a naval perspective. The US keep sending vast quantities of destroyers and subs, which I keep destroying, but the Japanese navy is slowly being weakened.
Add to that the carrier based planes the U.S. are using, and it is most interesting.

Unfortunately, the Chinese, British, French have been extremely timid in mainland Asia.
I have encountered very little resistance capturing Chinese cities, and the Brits have sent no armour into my territory.

I am massing for an attack against British held Mandalay, so that may tweak the AI into some tougher action.

I_batman,

I regard city-razing as a severe problem and I will give it first priority.

Its possible that the British forces in India are to weak now.
Looking forward to follow how this playtest turns out.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Sasebo,

"Rocoteh: Not sure how well it helps the AI to not raze cities, but the "retain culture on capture" seems to help somewhat, though I don't have any hard numbers for you. The cities down in africa don't have any wonders, but they do get captured instead of razed 50-60% of the time that I've seen"
Sasebo

Yes I use "retain culture on capture" in version 1.8. It does have impact.
I think AI abstain from city-razing in Africa because the cities are much
more spread out there compared to Europe.

"Rocoteh, I've noticed in several earlier version games that China seems to go after Thailand early in the game, and I bet they lose significant ground troops to take 1-3 cities down there. That is probably a big reason why some people's playtests as Japan seem like China puts up weak resistance. Any chance of using weak little garrisons like you do in russia to prevent them from squandering their troops on those silly offensives? Now the garrisons would have to be allied troops, so I don't know if you can set them up that way."
Sasebo

Its one way to go. Another way is to make Thailand neutral from start.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

I been out a while on this thread but am trying to keep some tabs on it. I figure I'll start here. My few cents worth on heavy bombers for Germany. Germany didn't have a "heavy bomber", there strategy was based around medium bombers and fighter/bombers, dual purpose aircraft if you will.

As I recall, germany didn't have anything close to what the allieds fielded in terms of a traditional heavy bomber! As for long range, well I dont know anything about that!

I maybe out of date a little in regards to the history of this topic and possibly what is meant by "heavy bomber"

oljb007,

I think a German heavy bomber can be interesting as a what-if option.
There were after all several such projects.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

That is true but I have found in my research that there was an obscure German program for a long range "Amerika" bomber. There were various designs ranging from a 4 engined (two engines per engine mount) bomber to a flying boat/bomber to a later jet engined (8 on the back) flying wing. It was to take the fight to the US mainland once the UK had been conquered. Naturally other circumstances intervened as well as the politics in the German aircraft industry that you mentioned.
But as Rocoteh has mentioned we can't really restrict development of later techs to just the allies since the whole scenario is a what if from the first turn. If the Germans did astoundingly well and actually achieved the success that they hoped for with Barbarossa, Battle of Britain etc then I think ultimately we would have seen the things that were on the drawing board come to fruition.
I think that if there was a good possibility of the science being implemented by the country being played it is just a question of where you place it in the tech tree.

Hornblower,

Yes I want to keep history as open as possible.

I mean: Given a German victory in Barbarossa and a later Sealion
there is nothing with regard to industrial capacity and technical "know how"
that could have prevented Germany to build a large force of
heavy bombers.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Adler,

Thank you for the very interesting comment on Germany and heavy bombers.

With regard to Göring: One must say that the whole bombing campaign
against Britain was a bad idea in most aspects.
(Military, economical and political.)

Rocoteh

 

[riley555]

How do I make it so that I can sign mutual protection pacts with neutral countries?

 

[IarnGreiper]

I think the Me264 would fit best in the scenario. I am still unsure of the required tech. The 43 modell has been only a prototype however it seemed to perform well lacking only the strategic scenario and industrial production. So Air 43 would propably fit best. The range stat would be truely outstanding given the fact that it was supposed to bombard New York from Brest! The resource cost should be as high a SS43 tank unit.

Speaking of know-how:
I was lucky enough to have been within the last round of students who happed to attend a university class on problems of military aircraft designs by Gero Madelung, son of Georg Madelung and nephew and assistant of Willy Messerschmidt. While maybe he was a little exagerating on their efforts he draw he clear picture on how advanced the German aircraft designers have been and how they have been hindered by the lack of resources.
In a fictional scenario in where the Reich had plenty of resources available for the aircraft industry many existing planes would have entered service earlier or semi-completed planes would have seen active service.

Speaking of Thailand, I would condider a neutral Thailand the best option. In my games the war between the British Empire and China against Thailand was key to east asia, not the advance of the Japanese troops.

 

[Hornblower]

Speaking of Thailand, I would condider a neutral Thailand the best option. In my games the war between the British Empire and China against Thailand was key to east asia, not the advance of the Japanese troops.

Yes I recently travelled to the the river Kwai in Thailand and to listen to the Thais tell the history of WW2 they were neutral. They feel that they allowed the Japanese into their country purely for economic reasons. IMHO I think they decided to allow the Japanese into their country to do as they wished so that the Thais could preserve as much of their country and culture as possible. If they resisted I don't think it would have been much of a fight. There doesn't seem to be much ill will from either the allies or Japanese over this decision. In this scenario perhaps neutral would make sense.

Germans - Beta1.8 - Diety
I have played this one very conservatively. Once I realised that it was going to take on average 27 turns to research a tech I knew that I couldn't rely on the old strategy of superior units but in smaller amounts. I have to make sure I don't throw away what I have and carefully stockpile. A two front war would be folly so I am being very careful appeasing the Soviets. Fortunately they are playing it quiet too.
I have progressively heavily fortified the eastern borders with 88's and Security Divisions whilst dealing with the French.
I have also decided to avoid conventional history and not go through the Low Countries. It always leads to destructive bombardment from air and sea. This time I placed all naval units in the seamine square northeast of Bremen and snipe at anything in range. It paid off and eventually all naval units that could have bombarded the French coast were taken out.
At the same time I concentrated on artillery and going through the Maginot Line. The French AI obviously didn't consider my tactic a threat and went at the Italians. They took the Italians east to Venice and all the way down the boot to Taranto. By this time I had built up three stacks of 25 PzIIIe's each. One stack (the 1st Panzer Div) went through Strasbourg. The second (the 2nd Panzer Div) went through Venice and down the boot. The third (the 3rd Panzer Div) took Yugoslavia and Greece and was then kept in reserve near Warsaw just in case the Soviets got beligerent.
It has been slow going but the Frence are ejected from their homeland and I now control all of Italy except Palermo. They won't get it back. Unfortunately it is week 29 of 1940 and I have only now got PzIIIg's. I fear the Soviets so I now have 4 divisions of 25 PzIIIg's on the eastern border (the 2nd thru 5th). A fifth division (the 1st Panzer Div) will shape up and take Spain once I have the cities in France under control and productive.
British air power is quite good and has Brest and Amsterdam under constant bombardment. It is hard to keep the Me109's functional there so I have CAP airfields near each city doing the hard work of shooting down the bomber streams. Not really as effective as I had hoped but once production ramps up all will be well and I may consider "Sealion". Scandinavia is more tempting though. We shall see.

 

[Rocoteh]

How do I make it so that I can sign mutual protection pacts with neutral countries?

riley555,

Its not possible now.

I will consider it for version 2.1.

Rocoteh

 

[riley555]

riley555,

Its not possible now.

I will consider it for version 2.1.

Rocoteh

Isn't it possible if I edit the map? I'll just edit it for myself, I won't distribute it.

 

[Rocoteh]

I think the Me264 would fit best in the scenario. I am still unsure of the required tech. The 43 modell has been only a prototype however it seemed to perform well lacking only the strategic scenario and industrial production. So Air 43 would propably fit best. The range stat would be truely outstanding given the fact that it was supposed to bombard New York from Brest! The resource cost should be as high a SS43 tank unit.

Speaking of know-how:
I was lucky enough to have been within the last round of students who happed to attend a university class on problems of military aircraft designs by Gero Madelung, son of Georg Madelung and nephew and assistant of Willy Messerschmidt. While maybe he was a little exagerating on their efforts he draw he clear picture on how advanced the German aircraft designers have been and how they have been hindered by the lack of resources.
In a fictional scenario in where the Reich had plenty of resources available for the aircraft industry many existing planes would have entered service earlier or semi-completed planes would have seen active service.

Speaking of Thailand, I would condider a neutral Thailand the best option. In my games the war between the British Empire and China against Thailand was key to east asia, not the advance of the Japanese troops.

IarnGreiper,

Yes its possible I will include Me264.
It will have a high price tag.

What you mention concerning Gero Madelung is interesting.
Its supports what have been said of this what if unit:
The inclusion of it is in no way unrealistic.

On Thailand:

It will probably start neutral in version 2.1.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Hornblower,

Thank you for the report.

"Yes I recently travelled to the the river Kwai in Thailand and to listen to the Thais tell the history of WW2 they were neutral. They feel that they allowed the Japanese into their country purely for economic reasons. IMHO I think they decided to allow the Japanese into their country to do as they wished so that the Thais could preserve as much of their country and culture as possible. If they resisted I don't think it would have been much of a fight. There doesn't seem to be much ill will from either the allies or Japanese over this decision. In this scenario perhaps neutral would make sense"
Hornblower

I agree. The reason to why Thailand starts as allied with the Axis
is that they declared war on Britain and US 1942 and then send troops
to support Japan fighting the British forces in Burma.
However as you say the alternative would have been a Japanse occupation.
All things considered I think its better that Thailand starts as a neutral.
That will probably also mean there will not be any pointless Chinese
offensive in the South.

"Germans - Beta1.8 - Diety
I have played this one very conservatively. Once I realised that it was going to take on average 27 turns to research a tech I knew that I couldn't rely on the old strategy of superior units but in smaller amounts. I have to make sure I don't throw away what I have and carefully stockpile. A two front war would be folly so I am being very careful appeasing the Soviets. Fortunately they are playing it quiet too.
I have progressively heavily fortified the eastern borders with 88's and Security Divisions whilst dealing with the French."
Hornblower

A sound strategy!

"I have also decided to avoid conventional history and not go through the Low Countries. It always leads to destructive bombardment from air and sea. This time I placed all naval units in the seamine square northeast of Bremen and snipe at anything in range. It paid off and eventually all naval units that could have bombarded the French coast were taken out."
Hornblower

That is an interesting alternative way.

"At the same time I concentrated on artillery and going through the Maginot Line. The French AI obviously didn't consider my tactic a threat and went at the Italians. They took the Italians east to Venice and all the way down the boot to Taranto. By this time I had built up three stacks of 25 PzIIIe's each. One stack (the 1st Panzer Div) went through Strasbourg. The second (the 2nd Panzer Div) went through Venice and down the boot. The third (the 3rd Panzer Div) took Yugoslavia and Greece and was then kept in reserve near Warsaw just in case the Soviets got beligerent."
Hornblower

It seems like France-AI always will attack Italy. I doubt many human
players controlling France would do that.

"It has been slow going but the Frence are ejected from their homeland and I now control all of Italy except Palermo. They won't get it back. Unfortunately it is week 29 of 1940 and I have only now got PzIIIg's. I fear the Soviets so I now have 4 divisions of 25 PzIIIg's on the eastern border (the 2nd thru 5th). A fifth division (the 1st Panzer Div) will shape up and take Spain once I have the cities in France under control and productive."
Hornblower

Yes Soviet can strike any time.

"British air power is quite good and has Brest and Amsterdam under constant bombardment. It is hard to keep the Me109's functional there so I have CAP airfields near each city doing the hard work of shooting down the bomber streams. Not really as effective as I had hoped but once production ramps up all will be well and I may consider "Sealion". Scandinavia is more tempting though. We shall see."
Hornblower

Here one must say AI handles it air-units rather well.

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Isn't it possible if I edit the map? I'll just edit it for myself, I won't distribute it.

riley555,

Yes its possible:
Just flag a Civ advance that all civs have with
"Enables Mutual Protection Pacts."
The main reason to why I left it out was to hold down diplomacy-time
between turns.
However since so many nations starts as either Axis or Allies
its possible I will include this option in version 2.1.

Rocoteh

 

[oljb007]

That is true but I have found in my research that there was an obscure German program for a long range "Amerika" bomber. There were various designs ranging from a 4 engined (two engines per engine mount) bomber to a flying boat/bomber to a later jet engined (8 on the back) flying wing. It was to take the fight to the US mainland once the UK had been conquered. Naturally other circumstances intervened as well as the politics in the German aircraft industry that you mentioned.
But as Rocoteh has mentioned we can't really restrict development of later techs to just the allies since the whole scenario is a what if from the first turn. If the Germans did astoundingly well and actually achieved the success that they hoped for with Barbarossa, Battle of Britain etc then I think ultimately we would have seen the things that were on the drawing board come to fruition.
I think that if there was a good possibility of the science being implemented by the country being played it is just a question of where you place it in the tech tree.

good point. So much so I would have to agree with your analysis and solutions. I would like to emphasize on the proper placement in the tech tree though.

Rocoteh, in regards to this what is the current situation with the speed at which the Germans can research in the huge map. this could all be a mute point if the science is still so slow that you would never get to a '43-'44 tech level!

 

[oljb007]

oljb007,

I think a German heavy bomber can be interesting as a what-if option.
There were after all several such projects.

Rocoteh

I hear ya.

 

[Rocoteh]

good point. So much so I would have to agree with your analysis and solutions. I would like to emphasize on the proper placement in the tech tree though.

Rocoteh, in regards to this what is the current situation with the speed at which the Germans can research in the huge map. this could all be a mute point if the science is still so slow that you would never get to a '43-'44 tech level!

oljb007,

That is for sure a major problem!

At which level does this problem appear?

Rocoteh

 

[oljb007]

oljb007,

That is for sure a major problem!

At which level does this problem appear?

Rocoteh

On the huge map at the toughest level, Diety I believe the research for the germans is unbelievably slow. I recall this being brought up at one point early in the thread. I built heavy research infastructure and was still in the 20+ weeks for techs.
:S