WW2: What if Spain had joined the Axis side during the war?

[joespaniel]

The US-UK assault on Italy drew off even more German troops that could have opposed the Red Army. Hardly a waste from the Russian perspective.

Italy was knocked out of the war, effectively closing the Med to the Axis and securing the Russian's southern flank as they swept into the Balkans. The Germans wasted valuable troops when they took over Italy that could have been used elsewhere.

Most importantly, the victories in 1943 were needed at home. The UK and USSR had their winning battles at El Alamein and Stalingrad, the US needed one too for propoganda purposes. A very important factor in world opinion as well.

 

[rilnator]

Italy was knocked out of the war, effectively closing the Med to the Axis and securing the Russian's southern flank as they swept into the Balkans. The Germans wasted valuable troops when they took over Italy that could have been used elsewhere.

The Germans had to occupy Italy, their army, although inefective had to be disarmed and their naval and airbases were useful too.

 

[samildanach]

So it would have been better for the allies to sit on their arses for a year
and let the axis move 1/3 of their air force and another 20 divisons into
the Russian campaign for a whole year?

If the forces deployed in North Africa and Italy been kept in southern Engalnd would the Germans have pushed everything into the East? I doubt it personally. The more they sent the earlier we would have invaded france. Remember we are talking about the hypothetical situation where spain entered WWII. But in any event I would have chosen to go through France and not channelled resources to the med.

 

[joespaniel]

Good thing your name isn't Eisenhower.

 

[Ozz]

If the forces deployed in North Africa and Italy been kept in southern Engalnd would the Germans have pushed everything into the East? I doubt it personally. The more they sent the earlier we would have invaded france. Remember we are talking about the hypothetical situation where spain entered WWII. But in any event I would have chosen to go through France and not channelled resources to the med.

The Germans brought a whole air corps back from Russia to Sicily.

The Allies wouldn't have the LSTs built in the quantities needed
for France until 44. Also more isn't better if you can't supply them,
the allies could barly supply what them did put in until they got
Antwerp.

As to Spain. The only result would have been the lost of Gibr, Spain would
have lost the Carainies and the route to Eqypt would still be secure,
Malta would have been supplied entirely from the east. Spain
would have also lost it's US grain shipments (it only had 9 months food stored) and it's iron ore sales to the UK.

The only neutral countries that could have made a differience would have
been Turkey (geographic) or Sweden (industrial).

 

[Adler17]

How the route would be secure? Around the Cape yes but the Med would soon be controlled by the Axis.

Adler

 

[Ozz]

How the route would be secure? Around the Cape yes but the Med would soon be controlled by the Axis.

Adler

except for a couple of conveys all supplies did go around the cape, except
for aircraft flying from Free French Africa. The axis would have got the
Western Med, The Fall of Gibr doesn't mean the Fall of Malta, Crete, Cyprus
or Eqypt.

 

[joespaniel]

On reflection, I think Ozz may be right about that.

Also, the Spanish fleet was probably even less fearsome than the Italian.

 

[Ace]

except for a couple of conveys all supplies did go around the cape, except
for aircraft flying from Free French Africa. The axis would have got the
Western Med, The Fall of Gibr doesn't mean the Fall of Malta, Crete, Cyprus
or Eqypt.

Crete DID fall. Malta was scheduled to be invaded when Rommel charged off toward Egypt. If Rommel had waited and let Kesslering take malta as planned, Egypt would have been no problem for the Africa Korps. With Malta in German hands, Rommel's supply lines would have be safe and instead of receiving only %20 of the stuff shipped, all of it would have gotten through. Taking Gib would have been nice, but not really necessary in that case. With Gib in German/Spanish hands the Med would have really been an Italian lake. And don't forget, without Gib as a base, Force H, which crippled the Bismarck, would have been homeless and had to run for English bases. The fall of Gib would have basically run the British out of the Med. The Italian Navy was pretty sorry, but with a German air fleet to lead it, and no British surface ships to oppose it, it was strong enough to supply Rommel and put all of North Africa in German hands.

The Spanish navy was in sad shape after the civil war. The only thing Hitler really wanted from Franco was a clear run to Gib. (And as many troops as possible for the Russian Front).

 

[stalin006]

The italian navy was not sorry
Italy had the ships......just noone competent in them.

 

[Ozz]

Taking Gib would have been nice, but not really necessary

With Gib in German/Spanish hands the Med would have really been an Italian lake. And don't forget, without Gib as a base, Force H, which crippled the Bismarck, would have been homeless and had to run for English bases. The fall of Gib would have basically run the British out of the Med.

I agree here.

I don't agree here, the British kept an Invasion force of of 5,000 men ready
for over a year to grab the cairnries if Spain got stupid.

Basically Malta was the prize, but you had to lock BOTH doors to the
Med to keep the island isolated.

 

[Ace]

The Canary Islands were not that important to the German war effort. If the British put 5,000 troops in there, that was just 5,000 less troops Rommel would have had to deal with in Egypt. The Suez Canal was the objective in Rommel's push to Egypt.

Think about this: with Gib, Malta, and Crete in German hands and the Africa Korps closing in on Egypt and the Suez Canal, just what would the British fleet in the Med have done?? It would have been impossible to escape via the canal and slipping past the stukas at Gib (to say nothing of the U Boats based there) would have been very difficult. It could have been a disaster of the first order for the Royal Navy.

 

[Ozz]

The Canary Islands were not that important to the German war effort. If the British put 5,000 troops in there, that was just 5,000 less troops Rommel would have had to deal with in Egypt. The Suez Canal was the objective in Rommel's push to Egypt.

Think about this: with Gib, Malta, and Crete in German hands and the Africa Korps closing in on Egypt and the Suez Canal, just what would the British fleet in the Med have done?? It would have been impossible to escape via the canal and slipping past the stukas at Gib (to say nothing of the U Boats based there) would have been very difficult. It could have been a disaster of the first order for the Royal Navy.

The Canarys were never invaded, and they were'nt important as long as
the UK could refuel and control the Straits from Gibr.

Thinking it wouldn't have happpened without the fall of Malta, and the
Germans busted their only air corps on Crete, Malta would have been
a lot harder than Crete.

 

[Adler17]

Gib was much more important. Even with the canaries lost the loss of Gib would have been much more important.

Adler

 

[Ozz]

Gib was much more important. Even with the canaries lost the loss of Gib would have been much more important.

Adler

I think this is where we disagree, I really don't think Gibr was than important.
It was just a gas station.

 

[Ace]

Malta would have been easier to take than Crete! The German paratroops took serious losses at Crete, but were still a formidable force. And the defenders on Malta were fewer in number, less well equipped, while the Germans had learned the lessons of Crete and were better equipped for Malta.

With Gib in Spanish/German hands, the Royal Navy would be severely limited which would have elavated the status and effectiveness of the Italian Navy.

 

[Ace]

I think this is where we disagree, I really don't think Gibr was than important.
It was just a gas station.

For the British Med strategy, Gib was the centerpost. If it had fallen, the British position in the Med would have been hopeless. Gib was not "just a gas station", it was a "full-service" home away from home that provided a safe haven for the Royal Navy (except for a few Italian Frogmen...).

 

[Ozz]

For the British Med strategy, Gib was the centerpost. If it had fallen, the British position in the Med would have been hopeless. Gib was not "just a gas station", it was a "full-service" home away from home that provided a safe haven for the Royal Navy (except for a few Italian Frogmen...).

Try alexandria for the frogmen, It was a naval station and policed traffic
into vichy. it was not a point of attack or control of any supply line.

 

[Ozz]

Malta would have been easier to take than Crete! The German paratroops took serious losses at Crete, but were still a formidable force. And the defenders on Malta were fewer in number, less well equipped, while the Germans had learned the lessons of Crete and were better equipped for Malta.

With Gib in Spanish/German hands, the Royal Navy would be severely limited which would have elavated the status and effectiveness of the Italian Navy.

Malta was a british fortress since naploeonic times, and was massively fortified by the Knights of Malta, the air was the only door in, and that
why it invasion was never attempted.

Gib would have never hamstung the RN, as for the Italian navy, you can
have the best equipment in the world, but it's useless without the
will to fight.

 

[Ace]

Try alexandria for the frogmen, It was a naval station and policed traffic
into vichy. it was not a point of attack or control of any supply line.

It was just the location from which the Royal Navy controlled one end of the Med. We all know what happened to the Queen Elizibeth and the Valiant. Simaliar things did happan in Gib, only they used delayed fuzes and the ships where thought to have hit mines after leaving harbor.