WWII Europe: Small, Fast & Beautiful for IV - Discussion & Creation Diary

[Asmodeous]

Hey, Ive been reading this and it caused me to register. I think you all are doing a great job here. as far as russian winters you could write a script based on the current month. Ussing this script you could have only certain units, technology's, or even civ's be able to have full movement or heal. I am not sure how workable this is, but it's some food for thought.

 

[NP300]

Paasky,

You said you couldn't just add more "SeeInvisible" tags for different invisible units. Did you try to add another "InvisibleInfos" in the XML/BasicInfos/CIV4BasicInfos.xml ?

I'm guessing that to create another different invisible unit, say an electroboat, you'd create a new "InvisibleInfo" with TYPE=Invisible_Eleektroboot and Description=TXT_KEY_INVISIBLE_ELEKTROBOOT

Then you may be able to add another SeeInvisible line.

I haven't tried this but it ocurred to me after snooping in the basicinfos file, as I was trying to mod in a nuclear sub unit. Have you tried this?

 

[sgrig]

I thought about how to mod weather into Civ4 - the easiest seems to give "anti-promotions" to units - so for example from Nov to March German units get a -25% strength "bonus" (possibly only against Russian units), but Finnish units get a +25% strength bonus in winter.

Possibly it could also be possible to introduce random events such as "bad weather" which grounds aircraft (or reduces their range). After discovering "meteorology" or something, the human player would get a warning of bad weather a turn in advance.

Also possibly during winter, resources such as wheat are removed from the map, so that the cities' health suffers during winter.

 

[Paasky]

That depends upon what you call playable. If you can't simulate the battle environment, call it whatever you like, but I wouldn't call it playable nor would I ascribe it to history. Otherwise, its all pretense and no substance.

How about those RISK style WWII games which have different areas or provinces to hold. They don't have any fancy attack models (not that I know of) but they are known to be ultra-realistic, often even too hard to play.

How does it work?

All military units have either Antihealth 1, except for tanks which have antihealth 2 (light & medium + also jet aircraft) or 3 (heavy & very heavy). Antihealth 1 reduces the healing speed of all units on the square by 10%, and all on the adjecent squares 5%. Antihealth 2 doubles those numbers, antihealth 3 triples them (-30% & -15%). I don't know yet if units start to actually lose health, probably not.
So if a stack has 5 infantry, 2 arty & 1 very heavy tank, the units won't heal at all. This represents the hardness of logistics & supply (& the breakdowns for the more advanced vehicles)

The Troop Supplies improvement makes the healing speed of all units on that square jump by 100%, but as the units still decrease it, the more units you have on the same square, the harder it's to heal. And again, haveing enough units will stop it alltogether.

So there's yet another reason to not attack in stacks.

Then you may be able to add another SeeInvisible line.

I haven't tried this but it ocurred to me after snooping in the basicinfos file, as I was trying to mod in a nuclear sub unit. Have you tried this?

Can't be done, the more than one SeeVisible that is: In the CIV4UnitSchemas.xml, there's a

<ElementType name="SeeInvisible" content="textOnly"/>

line. I don't know if the schema is editable though, hopefully. I'll try it soon(ish). I'll try to change it into

<ElementType name="SeeInvisibles" content="eltOnly">
<element type="SeeInvisible" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>

which hopefully would resolve that.

Winter? !!!

Yes, I intend to make winter change the terrains. BUT, I believe that it will be difficult. I'll probably change all of the terrain from the northern area into snow, and give the Soviets, Finnish, Swedish & Norway-Denmark the ability to get a free "Winter Combat" promotion (which the others can get through combat experience though) for all of their units. The promotion will give a +20% bonus in snow & tundra.

I will need help coding that, like all of the python stuff, as I have no knowledge of it. For example, I need a code that will give the conqueror of a city immediately 1000 culture (ie remain culture on capture) but hopefully only after the initial resistance has ended (1-10 turns).

 

[Asmodeous]

That seems like a good way of resolving it.
I was wondering if oyu would like some help with the more mundane tasks such as adding more civ's, as I would be more than happy to help.
I may not be the most skilled modder, but I'll do whatever you need me to do.

 

[NKVD]

The Troop Supplies improvement makes the healing speed of all units on that square jump by 100%, but as the units still decrease it, the more units you have on the same square, the harder it's to heal. And again, haveing enough units will stop it alltogether.

So there's yet another reason to not attack in stacks.


Yes, I intend to make winter change the terrains. BUT, I believe that it will be difficult. I'll probably change all of the terrain from the northern area into snow, and give the Soviets, Finnish, Swedish & Norway-Denmark the ability to get a free "Winter Combat" promotion (which the others can get through combat experience though) for all of their units. The promotion will give a +20% bonus in snow & tundra.

you are genius... I also like the idea of anti-promotion from months to months...

 

[Red Door]

If you do do anti-promotions, then Russians should get Winter bonus also.
Troop supplies are essntial. I was hoping they'd be in regular game.

 

[Paasky]

That seems like a good way of resolving it.
I was wondering if oyu would like some help with the more mundane tasks such as adding more civ's, as I would be more than happy to help.
I may not be the most skilled modder, but I'll do whatever you need me to do.

The most needed thing will be civilopedia, Sid's (renamed into Paasky's ) Tip's & all of the small 2d build images. They are not difficult, I can even change them into .dds, just send me the images as .png.

Also, as I don't plan on translations (unless someone wants to...), the Civilopedias can be simply written on the UnitInfos.xml itself, as well as the Strategy (which I prob should write myself, or someone else after playing a bit) texts.

You can see the unit/building list from the .html in the first post, and I can send you the original Civilopedia.txt from the civ3 version, so you can copy-paste some texts. PM/IM/E-mail me for more info.

 

[Imperator666]

The Walt Disney World diversity of Germany's war engine was partially its downfall. The Ruskis on the other hand, they made one kind of superior weapon and stuck to it - the T-34c for example.

true, the germans had a wider variety in armor units but how does that become a disadvantage? they had some very unreliable models but they also created very efficient ones. the downfall of the german army was the lack of resources and the overwhelming power of the enemies. also the russians had many different armor units, even some very heavy tanks comparable to german tiger tanks. the "walt disney variety" in armor units had to be because of the very different roles a tank in that epoch of warfare had to fulfill (tank destroyer, battle tank, assault gun, mobile artillery, mobile air defense, armored recon vehicle, mechanized infantry vehicle). a wider variety also makes the enemy never know what to expect .
i´d love to see many many different armor units, jsut because of the fact that their development had a huge impact on how the war was fought at that time, and having a superior unit for some time gave you a real edge.

 

[Nuh Uh]

How about those RISK style WWII games which have different areas or provinces to hold. They don't have any fancy attack models (not that I know of) but they are known to be ultra-realistic, often even too hard to play.

World at War? At that scale, not unlike what a high level military leader would use to direct his commanders. Its a wargame but in its own dimension, and acceptable as a wargame because, although one can't simulate combat field tactics, it has comprehensible supply system. Is that what you are modeling after? I wouldn't. Civ is better designed for division-regiment level. Corps would be really stretching it, yet alone Armies (groups of corps), IMO.

Axis and Allies/Risk? Toys for Tots.

All military units have either Antihealth 1, except for tanks which have antihealth 2 (light & medium + also jet aircraft) or 3 (heavy & very heavy). Antihealth 1 reduces the healing speed of all units on the square by 10%, and all on the adjecent squares 5%. Antihealth 2 doubles those numbers, antihealth 3 triples them (-30% & -15%). I don't know yet if units start to actually lose health, probably not.
So if a stack has 5 infantry, 2 arty & 1 very heavy tank, the units won't heal at all. This represents the hardness of logistics & supply (& the breakdowns for the more advanced vehicles)

The Troop Supplies improvement makes the healing speed of all units on that square jump by 100%, but as the units still decrease it, the more units you have on the same square, the harder it's to heal. And again, haveing enough units will stop it alltogether.

So there's yet another reason to not attack in stacks.

Okay, now you lost me. Are you programming this Paasky? Because its detail and ingenuity is laudable. If you are programming this (and, I am not a programmer, unfortunately - at least not yet), hats off to you. But, if you can do this - then why not make it such that the heal promotion exists automatically and is only activated if you can trace a path of tiles free of enemy troops/obstruction back to a friendly city, and design a unit called a BridgeHead for amphibious invasions that acts like a friendly city until you are able to acquire one? That would be a comprehensible and realistic supply system, and although you still can't simulate battlefield tactics, you have entered the realm of 'playable simulation'.

 

[Nuh Uh]

Paasky can you mod this: Heal and Anti-heal only exists within your units based upon the ability to trace a path back to a friendly city, then triple the current anti-heal for ground and double the anti-heal for armor? Even if its cumulative as you say, or otherwise not cumulative. Heal would reinstate what is already the normal healing system. That would be a great supply system! Perhaps the best one yet.

 

[Asmodeous]

Sure thing, I can get on compiling some german history and info on civ's related to it, or get started on making 2d tech images, just tell me what a few of them are and if you have a specific style in mind.

 

[Paasky]

Well, most of them (techs, units, buildings, promotions) are available from this thread. Techs = page 7, Promos = page 5, Rest = page 1.

Style... Dunno. For the guns: Guns 1 = image of a short barrelled (tank) gun, Guns 2 = image of a long barreled (tank) gun, etc. I will post what the techs allow today.

NuhUh: Actually, it's very simple: Every unit automatically get's one of the antihealth promotions, this can be given straight from the UnitInfos.xml (like the Blitz for tanks). The Troop Supplies building can be uilt in a city, and will raise the healing for all units on the square by 100%.

Yes, I intend to make units that can heal others (Great General perhaps?).

But I can't code at all, so the traceing can't be done, by me atleast. But it's a great, yet simple, way of doing it

 

[Paasky]

Good news everyone!


It looks like editing the Schemas in .xml's is possible, as I just added a few things into the promotions without any errors! But there's a but: The new, added things (like a UnitClassMod) won't work. We'll probably have to wait for the unit SDK for that. I'll keep on testing, trying to find a loop-hole

But haveing more than one SeeInvisible might be possible!

Meanwhile, have a look at the different models/scales I'm going to use, although I'll adjust the scales.

 

[Nuh Uh]

Wow - looks great (find someone who can script tracing and you'll have a winner...).

 

[Paasky]

I actually sent 11 PM's about Python help and one said that it might be possible

 

[Nuh Uh]

oooo - man - look-out That'd be AWESOME - the real enchilada (I feel dizzy).

 

[Paasky]

Paasky has changed his image!

And made yet another post headed for that 1000 mark

 

[wotan321]

Is there any word if Firaxis is releasing new mesh's for units, or some program to create/edit them?

 

[DarthCycle]

true, the germans had a wider variety in armor units but how does that become a disadvantage? they had some very unreliable models but they also created very efficient ones.

Think of it in term of logistics. When you have a wider variety in unit types, here armor, you have a greater need in parts, ammunition and not the least, making sure personnel is properly trained to handle maintenance and repair on all the different units.

the downfall of the german army was the lack of resources and the overwhelming power of the enemies. also the russians had many different armor units, even some very heavy tanks comparable to german tiger tanks. the "walt disney variety" in armor units had to be because of the very different roles a tank in that epoch of warfare had to fulfill (tank destroyer, battle tank, assault gun, mobile artillery, mobile air defense, armored recon vehicle, mechanized infantry vehicle). a wider variety also makes the enemy never know what to expect .

This is debatable. The walt disney variety was a direct result in the many industrial manufacturer that was supplying the german army. Each of them had different manufacturing standards, parts, design, ... You can make a parrallel with GM, Ford and Chrysler in the US today for car and trucks.

i´d love to see many many different armor units, jsut because of the fact that their development had a huge impact on how the war was fought at that time, and having a superior unit for some time gave you a real edge.

You're partly right. Variety is fun from a gameplay perspective. But the development of all those units was more the result of adapting the fighting doctrine to the ever changing battlefield. Meaning, tank destroyers, anti-tank doctrine, assault gun and the like were developped when the "regular" tank couldn't properly handle enemy tanks and when you couldn't build enough of the regular tank. It was cheaper to install a Pak40 gun on a Panzer 38 chassis and thus create the Marder III tank destroyer. Both were proven technology so they could manufacture those easily. Designing a new tank design from scratch, then build a prototype, then conduct trials for reliably and capability, then finally releasing the new model takes a long time. Time you might now have when the enemy introduce a new unit that you are not adapted to fight against effectively. Germany certainly didn't have it when the Russian T34 appeared.