WWII Europe: Small, Fast & Beautiful for IV - Discussion & Creation Diary

[DarthCycle]

Paasky, what map are we going to use? And where is the link for it?

We could probably start asking for help in (country) border design and city locations.

Also, what's the current list of countries we're going to have?

 

[Paasky]

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[Paasky]

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*Triple post (pressed the button only once though...) *

 

[Paasky]

It's a map made by me, I can give you a few screenshots tomorrow. Size is 104x64, which is Normal or Medium by civ4 standards. Preview

Situating the cities is fairly simple, I just need a map & time
But what about city size/improvement amount?

Civlist:
0. Germany (T0)
1. Britain (T1)
2. France (T1)
3. USSR (T2)
4. Italy (T3)
5. Poland (T4)
6. hung (T5)
7. Roma (T6)
8. bulg (T7)
9. turk (T8)
10 greece (T9)
11 baltic (T10)
12 yugos (T11)
13 fin (T12)
14 nor&den (T13)
15 swe (T14)
16 spa & port (T15)
17 benelux (T16)

Part of my notes, should be understandable

Oh, here is a new combat model addition that might be possible:

Each square represents a square in civ. The amount of units per square doesn't matter, as each stack causes the same 15% bonus.

This means that if you (attacker) have 1 stack of 10 units, and the has 3 stacks of 2 units, in a line, you have a disadvantage (+15% or +30% for the defender) because they are more scatterd (ie: can surround you). And before you say: "A larger force can't be surrounded!", go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae

Simple, yet very effective.

 

[Shylock]

It stores the Gold, so why not Oil, Food & Ammunition reserves aswell? A "If OilReserve =< 0 Then Do FreezeAllOilUnits" perhaps? And add: "If AmmoReserve =< 0 Then Do StopAllFighting" and of course "If FoodReserve =< 0 Then Do KillAllUnits " OK, maybe the last two are not options... But FreezeProduction & maybe FreezeAllOilUnits should happen. The thing with that is that I don't want to make it too complicated. KISS my friends...

Ammo reserves could affect defence and attack values, and food reserves could affect hit points.

 

[Paasky]

They are the same thing in civ4. Which is actally a good thing: the more the unit has suffered in battle, the worse it's AD values are.

Perhaps this: without food, cities starve & production is /2; without ammo, units strenght is /2; without oil, oil units can't move.

 

[NKVD]

They are the same thing in civ4. Which is actally a good thing: the more the unit has suffered in battle, the worse it's AD values are.

Perhaps this: without food, cities starve & production is /2; without ammo, units strenght is /2; without oil, oil units can't move.

totally that! what would be good too is that units can use ennemy roads...I mean why cant you use the roads of a foreign territory ? I mean if you look at the german invading France, Poland or russia....maybe a fog of war but you should definately be able to use roads... I mean Tar doesnt have a nationality..

 

[jbfballrb]

let em all start with a promotion that allows that

 

[Nuh Uh]

Oh, here is a new combat model addition that might be possible:

Each square represents a square in civ. The amount of units per square doesn't matter, as each stack causes the same 15% bonus.

This means that if you (attacker) have 1 stack of 10 units, and the (defender) has 3 stacks of 2 units, in a line, you have a disadvantage (+15% or +30% for the defender) because they are more scatterd (ie: can surround you). And before you say: "A larger force can't be surrounded!", go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae

Simple, yet very effective.

Very, very good. I think that, given the system at hand, its the best solution. Thanks Paasky!

 

[Nuh Uh]

The idea of STACKED combat, is another issue. Unless I'm missing something, I can't attack a defender with more than 1 unit at a time. That's a problem too. Even if 'stacking enabled' is used, the system still faces the units off at one unit vs. one unit, am I right there Paasky? If so, is there a way to mod it such that all of the units in 'a stack' are counted as ONE unit, both for offense and defense? IOW, if I have 5 warriors in a stack, and I attack a defending warrior, my combat odds are in fact 5:1, instead of the 1:1 x 5? Likewise, if I attack a stack of units, I get to attack the WHOLE stack as compared to attacking them unit by unit. This system is more realistic, the reason being that the defender couldn't just hold me off simply because I can't attack all of his units in one turn. Also, this raises the problem inherent of NO STACKING LIMITS, and stacking limitation is something which would need to be in effect at some level.

Also, another thought on your combat modifier system (quite ingenius): Given its mechanics, is it possible to commence the combat bonus on the 3rd unit and double it for every unit there after? Or is that too difficult? (That would be better, but I imagine it involves an entirely new system of programming, such that it could be abandoned for something better). The idea being, once I have a 3rd unit, I have a lot of weight on the defender's flanks tot. +30%. With the 4th, I've started to turn the defender's flank tot. +60%. The 5th means I've outflanked them tot. +120%. The 6th means I've definatively surrounded them tot. +240%. With the 7th the enemy is engulfed tot. +480%. With the 8th unit the enemy is KYAG-ed (kiss your *ss good bye) tot. +960%.

If not, the system you have as shown is also very good, IMO. Given either scenario, the need to develop the HedgeHog Promotion for the Pikeman and armor/infantry would be great. Pikemen (with the possible exception of combat vs. Musketmen) should be naturally resistant to this combat modifier of encirclement as discussed; and while infantry/armor could, with the proper experience, better fortify themselves against being surrounded/flanked.

 

[Nuh Uh]

Another thought for what I'm looking at here:

Let's say I have 6 units surrounding your unit. With the current combat system in mind, if this system does what I (hopefully) think your are saying, it will assign a +90% attack modifier to each one of my units that attacks yours, correct? So, basically, I would have 6 units each with a +90% attack modifier, yes? If so, the system is very good in my view, as stated.

 

[Paasky]

let em all start with a promotion that allows that

I remember someone saying that those are in icv4 in a pre-realease film, but I haven't seen a promo like that... Oh wait, is it Commando? If so, then it's just changeing a number. I'll make all of the antihealths give that ability, to make my life simpler.

The idea of STACKED combat, is another issue. Unless I'm missing something, I can't attack a defender with more than 1 unit at a time. That's a problem too. Even if 'stacking enabled' is used, the system still faces the units off at one unit vs. one unit, am I right there Paasky? If so, is there a way to mod it such that all of the units in 'a stack' are counted as ONE unit, both for offense and defense? IOW, if I have 5 warriors in a stack, and I attack a defending warrior, my combat odds are in fact 5:1, instead of the 1:1 x 5? Likewise, if I attack a stack of units, I get to attack the WHOLE stack as compared to attacking them unit by unit. This system is more realistic, the reason being that the defender couldn't just hold me off simply because I can't attack all of his units in one turn. Also, this raises the problem inherent of NO STACKING LIMITS, and stacking limitation is something which would need to be in effect at some level.

Well, civ has, for over 10 years now, used signle combat vs single combat. Although stacked attacks are now possible, it still uses 1 unit vs 1 unit. So why start changeing that? It's a big part of how combat is done in civ. Otherwise we could all just be playing Rome: Total War, right?

Also, another thought on your combat modifier system (quite ingenius): Given its mechanics, is it possible to commence the combat bonus on the 3rd unit and double it for every unit there after? Or is that too difficult? (That would be better, but I imagine it involves an entirely new system of programming, such that it could be abandoned for something better). The idea being, once I have a 3rd unit, I have a lot of weight on the defender's flanks tot. +30%. With the 4th, I've started to turn the defender's flank tot. +60%. The 5th means I've outflanked them tot. +120%. The 6th means I've definatively surrounded them tot. +240%. With the 7th the enemy is engulfed tot. +480%. With the 8th unit the enemy is KYAG-ed (kiss your *ss good bye) tot. +960%.

Again, civ is 1 unit vs 1 unit. So why bother with bringing all units at once, when they can't.

If not, the system you have as shown is also very good, IMO. Given either scenario, the need to develop the HedgeHog Promotion for the Pikeman and armor/infantry would be great. Pikemen (with the possible exception of combat vs. Musketmen) should be naturally resistant to this combat modifier of encirclement as discussed; and while infantry/armor could, with the proper experience, better fortify themselves against being surrounded/flanked.

I think this is too deep, for now atleast.

Another thought for what I'm looking at here:
Let's say I have 6 units surrounding your unit. With the current combat system in mind, if this system does what I (hopefully) think your are saying, it will assign a +90% attack modifier to each one of my units that attacks yours, correct? So, basically, I would have 6 units each with a +90% attack modifier, yes? If so, the system is very good in my view, as stated.

Yes: the system counts all stacks in the combat zone (1 square into every direction from the defender) and adds a 15% bonus per stack. What I like especially is that if a completely surrounded unit is attacked, the attacker gets a 105% bonus, but if the surrounded troops try to break free, the defender only gets a 30-60% bonus.


Again, hopefully this can be done. And what about the AI... We'll have to give it unit production bonuses (depending on the difficulty level) to counter the human knowledge of this new way of fighting.

And, I think that I can reveal the secret identity behind the python: Snarko.

 

[DarthCycle]

Paasky,

your grid combat system is an interesting concept to say the least, but how will you "teach" the AI to use such tactics with its units?

 

[Nuh Uh]

Again, civ is 1 unit vs 1 unit. So why bother with bringing all units at once, when they can't.

No, this reference on my part has no bearing upon true-stacked combat, unit vs. unit or what not, but rather is simply a combat modifier system that is more specialized, such that #1 - it targets the issue of flanking better virtue of delayed combat modifier with a higher degree of impact. #2 - it doesn't give the defender a combat modifier for its tile.

This last point brings me to a question about what you just posted, saying that the defender that was surrounded would get a +30% modifier of more when attempting to break out... Why is that? Ideally, the defender shouldn't have a modifier, but if its entrenched in the system as presented (IOW the modification to the system that I have suggested is not possible) then wouldn't it only be a +15%?

 

[Paasky]

DarthCycle: I'm not going to, until the AI SDK comes out (and even then after I find myself an AI coder )

Nuh Uh: Per'aps, but it would start going RTW'ish, as civ doesn't care one otters flipper about other units except the 2 fighting. I see that the bonuses don't neccessarily mean that those units are fighting, but rather that the enemy can't fight at full strength as it has to be worried about those flanks all the time.

you mixed up the defender/attacker thing: If the surrounded unit tries to break free, IT is the attacker. And even if you have completely surrounded someone in civ, the area (3x3 squares) is so huge you can't expect units to start fighting a battle which is 2 squares away.

 

[DarthCycle]

Paasky, ah ok, I was wondering how you were going to approach that.

However, for version 1 of the scenario/mod, perhaps we should focus on things that are doable: the maps, the units, the technology, the factions and so forth.

From a designing perspective, it is better to concentrate our energy on a few things at a time. We develop them, release them for beta testing, make corrections based on feedback, repeat until satisfied. Then move on the new features to develop. It seems to me we are trying to do too much things at the same time.

 

[Paasky]

That's actually how I do stuff, although I'm not the one doing the python, I'm just doing units/buildings/map/huge amount of rule changeing.

Bad News Everybody:
The medics (& therefore antihealths) are NOT cumulative. That means that the highest (prob being -10% = antihealth 1) will be the only one working in a stack. Now the good news is that the units can start loseing strength if they don't have oil/ammo/munitions.

More to come as it unfolds

 

[DarthCycle]

After much brainstorming, I have refined my ground unit model. The focus is on tanks for now but the infantry model will be incorporated pretty soon.

About the files:

1) WWII Europe - SFB - Global Ground Unit Tech path v1.12

This is the technology tree and model for tank and gun. Square represents technology that can be researched. Balloon represents also a technology that can be researched but it will also unlock units. What units are unlocked depends on what technologies you have and what units are enabled for your country (see next point for more info on this).



2) Grid - Germany - Tank vs Gun caliber

The grid shows all possible combination of tank + unit type + gun caliber but the 'X' shows specifically which ones are enabled for Germany.

With this grid, we can then modelize every country units.

For example, in order to get Medium tank variant II with Basic medium gun; you'll need the following technologies: Medium Tank variant II (and its predecessor Medium Tank variant I + Medium Tank Design + Light Tank Design) and Basic Medium gun.

To get Heavy tank destroyer variant I with Advanced Heavy gun, you'll need: Heavy tank variant I (and its predecessor Light tank design + medium tank design + heavy tank design), Heavy tank destroyer design (and its predecessor Light TD design + Medium TD design) and Advanced Heavy Gun (and its predecessor basic heavy gun + improved heavy gun)



3) Grid - Definition - Gun caliber effect

This grid shows the modifier that each gun caliber gives. Gun caliber has an impact against infantry and/or tank.



4) Grid - Germany - Units stats example

This is an example of what germany ground units will look like with this system. Base strength values will need some fine tuning, just consider them as a starting value in order to be able to make some comparison between the various units.

The column Gun effect shows the impact of the gun caliber on the unit performance against tank/infantry unit. Type effect shows the impact of the unit type (Tank Destroyer,Anti-tank,Assault-Gun) on the unit performance against tank/infantry unit. The column Final strenght gives the strength values against tank and and against infantry (prior to defenders bonuses due to terrain, forts, cities and such).



Comments and feedback appreciated and required

 

[luciferius]

About the baltic states... The unique unit for them should be forest brothers/ bushwhackers, who are basicly guerilla fighters, who hid themselves in forests from the soviet power. One possibility is that they could be hidden from the enemys in their territory, but they could not be trained, they'd only appear, if a city was captured. I think they should get Woodsman II, Combat I and maybe Shock promotions.
The victory condition for the neutrals could be making a defencive pact with eachother and not losing a single city to either axis or allies.

 

[Paasky]

Comments and feedback appreciated and required

Brilliant! And I understood it

When you first look at it, the system seems huge, but actually it's quite simple Now just start pondering on how to get those promotions working properly with your system.

Btw, how are units made civ-specific? In civ3 it was simple: just select what civs could build it. I'm going to use the Trade-Resources again, but this time only German, British, Soviet, French & Italian. Other national units are only buildable by one civ.

Luciferius: Long time lurker, first time poster I see
Thanks for the idea, They'll be under the category of:
Domain: Land, Combat: Infantry, Class: Resistance, Civ: Baltic
and although not buildable, they'll appear in two different ways: when an enemy comes near a city (like in the American Revolution) & randomly if the civ has ceased to exist. Actually every nation will pop up resistance if they are occupied.