XCOM 2

Guerilla ops centre should be first pick. Then resistance com, then you should be digging for your power core. Proving ground should be high on the list after that.

Thanks. Your order is what I thought was the best one.

Staffing one engineer gets you two gremlins which can then staff rooms. So by the end game you can have 4 gremlins with upgraded workshop which is 2 free engineers. This is a good investment in my opinion, as it saves you from recruiting engineers every month from the start, which is when money is more tight. You should always try to have all staff in all facilities in my opinion.

That is good to know. I feel like I am actually pretty good at the tactical combat part. I win every single mission with only a few losses from time to time. But I really need to get better at managing the strategic layer and the Avenger in particular. That is my weakness. I often don't have enough engineers so I am short staffed and/or not excavating or building as quickly as I should. And the avatar counter seems to run away from me. I get 3 regions and magnetic weapons and predator armor, but then the avatar counter only has 2-4 pips left. That just feels like I am behind. So, I know I could do better managing that part of the game.

I think the awc is a luxury item. In fact, in my game it actually gave me a perk I don't want. It gave my sniper phantom. He also has kill zone. So that is not so good. If you retrain them can you get rid of a perk?

wow. AWC might give you a great perk but it seems like most times than not, it would be a complete waste.
 
That is good to know. I feel like I am actually pretty good at the tactical combat part. I win every single mission with only a few losses from time to time. But I really need to get better at managing the strategic layer and the Avenger in particular. That is my weakness. I often don't have enough engineers so I am short staffed and/or not excavating or building as quickly as I should. And the avatar counter seems to run away from me. I get 3 regions and magnetic weapons and predator armor, but then the avatar counter only has 2-4 pips left. That just feels like I am behind. So, I know I could do better managing that part of the game.

Even 2 pips takes a while to fill, and the Avatar clock stops being a clock and turns back into a pip counter if you do anything to delay the project - the Avatar counter isn't something to worry unduly about, I don't think.

I think in my playthrough I only bought one engineer - most come as mission rewards. And I don't bother digging for a relay since you don't need to - there aren't enough facilities to fill the available slots, so if you eventually need a second relay (and mine appeared to be bugged as I wasn't able to upgrade it to an elerium version even when I had the resources) you can just build one. You don't need a laboratory particularly and don't need more than one workshop.

wow. AWC might give you a great perk but it seems like most times than not, it would be a complete waste.

It's true that it should do more, since the free bonuses are rare and its sole ability not very useful but I default to building it just because at that stage in the game I don't have anything I'd rather be building and it does give you free perks. Ever Vigilant on a Grenadier and Covering Fire on my Sharpshooter were both useful bonuses. I had useless ones as well - Deadeye on a Ranger (which taught me that you can't use Deadeye as a second action). I didn't think to try retraining it.
 
What do you guys think about the different facilities?
You can skip laboratory. i have one in my current game and it has little impact (you can staff two scientist in there for a little research bonus). usually you are hindered by supplies/elerium/alloys to upgrade your gear than by actual research time.
you can also skip defence matrix (i still build one later since it is cheap) as it is only of minor help in a very rare mission.
you could also skip the psi labs, but i would heavily advice against it. the rest of the facilities you need
the workshop can be skipped as well, but it is quite good in the early game as you basically trade one engineer for two gremlins. make sure to build important facilities that always need to be staffed next to it (like resistance communications or power relays)


Tactical progression generally seems better in the broadest sense than in XCOM (or X-COM), with difficulty actually becoming greater towards the late game after a mid-game lull into complacency
On higher difficulties (having played through commander and now finishing legendary) i have to say the game starts out ridiculously hard and becomes easy in the mid game and slightly challenging in the late game with the exception of the very last mission which comes closes in difficulty to the first few missions.

For me difficulty is determined in 2 ways:
1) The game throws more at you at once than you can handle, e.g. in the early game you have 4 soldiers with barely any abilities, that can't reliably hit enemies that are exposed (only 70% chance to hit) but can be critted through high cover. in such an environment the game becomes a very frustrating bad luck simulator. you simply have too little tools and number of dice rolls on your side to feel in command.

2) The game always throws situation at you that can be handled but ultimately lead to attrition. this is implemented through cooldowns and item usage limitations, e.g. i can grenade myself through any pack but i do not have enough grenades for the whole mission or i could blow a lot of cooldows to get rid of this pack but then i can't use my abilities for the next few rounds and i have to advance to make it in time to the objective. such a type of difficulty is rewarding because you always feel in command but have to make calculated risks. the last mission is a decent example of this type of difficulty as you simply run out of all usable items by the end.


Strategy

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i agree with most of your points and will add a few of my own:
1) you can't reliably stall the avatar project: in my legendary playthrough i let the avatar project complete and then raided the black site and 3 alien facilities as well as skulljacked an advent officer reducing the avatar project to 3 pips. it stayed at three pips for a long time and suddenly increased by 3 pips a month later on for no reason. i can't even counter the dark events that increase the avatar project as this event always happens and i can only choose to counter the other two dark events. i am basically forced to do the story missions. this is very sad because i wanted to have a game with 6 fully trained psi ops.

2) there is little connection between the strategy layer and the tactical layer which seems like a waste. i would prefer a setup where one mission would logically lead to connected missions, e.g.:
mission 1) you start by kidnapping an advent vip. the vip tells you about a train
mission 2a) sabotage the train and get lots of loot
mission 2b) infiltrate and hack the train, here you don't get loot but you know where the train is going
mission 3) you followed the train to a facility which you can blow up reducing the aliens progress

such little mini campaigns would make the strategy layer much more involved and also convey the setting of a resistance movement much better than the current strategy layer.


Top priority for DLC and patches, I'd suggest, would be adding a variety of set maps for things like alien facility missions
i disagree on handcrafted maps they hamper replayability a lot imho and the current system is pretty decent at creating good memorable maps like the black site or gateway story mission. i would prefer a focus on a bigger variety of mission types and map types (e.g. maps with alien flora like we encountered in the alien gate mission) and more variability in the number of alien pods and map sizes. however the biggest problem with the current game is strategic layer imho.
 
On higher difficulties (having played through commander and now finishing legendary) i have to say the game starts out ridiculously hard and becomes easy in the mid game and slightly challenging in the late game with the exception of the very last mission which comes closes in difficulty to the first few missions.

I can definitely see that - I hadn't allowed for the difference the spike in early-game difficulty makes (despite dropping down to Normal in the first place to complete the campaign since I was dying too often and too early on Classic).

2) The game always throws situation at you that can be handled but ultimately lead to attrition. this is implemented through cooldowns and item usage limitations, e.g. i can grenade myself through any pack but i do not have enough grenades for the whole mission or i could blow a lot of cooldows to get rid of this pack but then i can't use my abilities for the next few rounds and i have to advance to make it in time to the objective.

That's one reason I dislike overreliance on grenades and associated abilities - Volatile Mix, for instance, gets you perhaps 6 extra damage per use, as you'll typically only have around 3 targets simply because that's the number in a mob and mobs don't often cluster. Chain Shot gets you that extra damage or more per use, though only on isolated targets.

such a type of difficulty is rewarding because you always feel in command but have to make calculated risks. the last mission is a decent example of this type of difficulty as you simply run out of all usable items by the end.

Well, on the final mission you have rechargable vortex abilities, of which you probably have at least two (one or more psi-operatives, plus the Avatar), and you also have options like Kill Zone, Serial and Hail of Bullets that only require reloading. Plus you have reusable 5-turn mind control, which is long enough per activation to use an Andromedon's acid bomb twice. Running out of ordnance was not one of my difficulties with that mission (and I'd probably rather have had extra Chain Shots to take down the Avatars, since you don't even need to finish off their supporting units). That was of course at a lower difficulty level, but unless the earlier parts of that mission are more challenging at higher difficulties I'd expect the same to apply.

i agree with most of your points and will add a few of my own:
1) you can't reliably stall the avatar project: in my legendary playthrough i let the avatar project complete and then raided the black site and 3 alien facilities as well as skulljacked an advent officer reducing the avatar project to 3 pips. it stayed at three pips for a long time and suddenly increased by 3 pips a month later on for no reason. i can't even counter the dark events that increase the avatar project as this event always happens and i can only choose to counter the other two dark events. i am basically forced to do the story missions. this is very sad because i wanted to have a game with 6 fully trained psi ops.

Really? Why? You'd get wrecked by the first Sectopod you ran across - Psi Operatives are great, but they're essentially support soldiers and do almost nothing to mechs (only Null Lance can harm them - though Fuse can blow up MECs' grenades). I only trained up one and it was more than sufficient - a second may have been useful on higher difficulties, but going beyond that seems likely to harm more than it would help. My final mission roster had three Grenadiers, a Sharpshooter, a Specialist and a Psi Operative (the Operative was a Magus, all the soldiers bar a Captain Grenadier were Colonels). I was missing a Ranger only because my last high-ranking one had been killed a little earlier and it didn't seem effective enough in the late game to replace. Possibly on higher difficulties it will be more important to have that extra single-target damage, but I didn't feel the lack in the late game here - half the time when I had the Ranger along it was just a scout and never broke concealment.

2) there is little connection between the strategy layer and the tactical layer which seems like a waste. i would prefer a setup where one mission would logically lead to connected missions, e.g.:
mission 1) you start by kidnapping an advent vip. the vip tells you about a train
mission 2a) sabotage the train and get lots of loot
mission 2b) infiltrate and hack the train, here you don't get loot but you know where the train is going
mission 3) you followed the train to a facility which you can blow up reducing the aliens progress

To be honest I think the way these missions is presented in the game works better with the setting, where the idea is that you collaborate with resistance groups - for which you're the coordinating hub - rather than - as in the last one - being the only one doing anything useful (what were all the national armies doing in the last game, again, aside from supplying burning tanks for one of the terror maps?) Though I would have liked something closer to this in the last game's Council missions, where each of the VIPs had a specific backstory and dialogue but the mission played out identically - what did the scientist learn other than the astonishing fact that the aliens came from outer space? What did the engineer find out about the treatment works, and could a follow up mission sabotage these to prevent the aliens' plan? Could rescuing van Dorn lead to some game advantage that represents UN support?

i disagree on handcrafted maps they hamper replayability a lot imho and the current system is pretty decent at creating good memorable maps like the black site or gateway story mission.

But the black site and gateway (the latter I disagree was memorable, other than cosmetically) are specific tilesets that are added to the procedural maps - much as in UFO each UFO had its own tileset. It's precisely those fixed tilesets that make the maps play differently, which is my point.

Fixed maps don't hamper replayability if used sparingly and if there are multiple options that can show up for any given retaliation or facility mission. I prefer any of the terror maps in XCOM to the retaliation maps I've seen.

The fixed base assault maps were ultimately a weakness in UFO/TftD, but that was down to the fact that (a) base assaults - both on alien bases and on X-COM - were much more frequent than in XCOM 2 and there was only a single design for each, (b) they were two-level maps and so took an excessively long time to complete, and (c) they simply weren't very well-designed. Even so there were tenser, more tactical fights in the corridors around the central room of the alien base, or in the corridors of the larger ships than on almost any of the procedural elements of the maps. While terror maps - which were either handcrafted or had a larger number of complex tilesets than other procedural maps - made for far more memorable missions than UFO missions.

i would prefer a focus on a bigger variety of mission types and map types (e.g. maps with alien flora like we encountered in the alien gate mission) and more variability in the number of alien pods and map sizes. however the biggest problem with the current game is strategic layer imho.

Map size I agree is an issue with variety. I'm happy enough with the strategic layer - anything much beyond what we have would probably seem bloated. Instead it could benefit from balancing tweaks and changes to the structure of the tech tree. I'd certainly give priority to maps, and after that to filling the mid-game 'gap' - bringing Chryssalids or other late-game aliens in to this point to increase the difficulty, adding Heavy aliens and more relevant psionics (maybe the Leader DLC promised will add some of this).
 
I just saw a post from a player on the 2K forum that there are 1-3 pips under the advent black sites on the strategic map which indicate how many pips the avatar project will lose if you sabotage that site. The longer the black site has been in operation, the more pips it will have. I did not know that. That is a very cool tip.
 
Really? Why? You'd get wrecked by the first Sectopod you ran across - Psi Operatives are great, but they're essentially support soldiers and do almost nothing to mechs (only Null Lance can harm them - though Fuse can blow up MECs' grenades).
6 psi ops = a 12 men/alien squad. your psi ops may have problems with the sectopod, but your little alien army won't :)
my plan for the psi ops was to equip them with A.P. Rounds (ignores 5 points of armor). you can simply shoot the sectopod to death without any risk: shoot 5 times point blank then stasis rinse and repeat.

That's one reason I dislike overreliance on grenades and associated abilities - Volatile Mix, for instance, gets you perhaps 6 extra damage per use, as you'll typically only have around 3 targets simply because that's the number in a mob and mobs don't often cluster. Chain Shot gets you that extra damage or more per shot per use, though only on isolated targets.
i am not sure about this, but i think volatile mix grants you far more damage because it also amplifies the dot of experimental grenades, e.g. my acid grenades have a dot of 5+ i.e. an acid bomb does 10+ damage (7-8 from the explosion + 5 from the dot at the beginning of the enemies turn). that means that 1 acid bomb can kill an entire squad in one action (salvo does not end your turn). the biggest problem i have with chain shot is the aim penalty. also i usually never have problems with mecs or sectopods. either i kill them outright with ruptures or if i can't kill them in one turn i throw down a mimic beacon, stun or stasis them.

Well, on the final mission you have rechargable vortex abilities
the regular (i.e. non avatar) version of vortex is rather bad damage wise. keep in mind that on higher difficulties enemies also have more hit points.

half the time when I had the Ranger along it was just a scout and never broke concealment.
that is my experience as well. however when i do need the damage i have it(also it is very reliable) and the scouting is very important on it's own. e.g. you can use heavy weapons on un-triggered pods.

But the black site and gateway (the latter I disagree was memorable, other than cosmetically) are specific tilesets that are added to the procedural maps - much as in UFO each UFO had its own tileset. It's precisely those fixed tilesets that make the maps play differently, which is my point.
i thought that map generation works like lego blocks, each block is hand crafted but the assembly of the blocks is done via an algorithm. in that sense the gateway is just another larger lego block, but the map on the whole is procedural generated. in that sense i have no disagreement with you.

To be honest I think the way these missions is presented in the game works better with the setting
imho currently the missions just pop up without any coherence with the strategic layer. suddenly a train can be raided, suddenly a vip needs rescue, suddenly a ufo lands and so on. outside the story line there is no narrative on the campaign map and tying missions together could provide this. it could also force difficult decisions on the player, e.g. one team sneaks a transmitter on a train, while another team executes the ambush. or one team get's one the train, the train moves to a black site and the same team has to destroy the black site, i.e. any items spend or soldiers lost will not be available in the second mission.

Fixed maps don't hamper replayability if used sparingly and if there are multiple options that can show up for any given retaliation or facility mission
i don't mind unique tilesets or larger unique areas in an overall procedural generated map. but i would dislike the static maps from xcom1. another reason xcom1 maps sucked was that enemy placement was fixed as well as xcom starting position. long war fixed that.

I prefer any of the terror maps in XCOM to the retaliation maps I've seen.
well the problem is rather that the retaliation missions are mechanically not the best design. it does not help that bradford constantly yells at you either.

The fixed base assault maps were ultimately a weakness in UFO/TftD
if i remember correctly the base assaults in UFO depended on your base layout.

I'm happy enough with the strategic layer - anything much beyond what we have would probably seem bloated
my main problem with the strategic layer (not speaking of avenger base management, research etc., but the map interactions) is that it is very simplistic, has no real connection to the missions which just pop out of nowhere and has little strategy involved. i agree with the rest of your sentiments though.
 
i am not sure about this, but i think volatile mix grants you far more damage because it also amplifies the dot of experimental grenades, e.g. my acid grenades have a dot of 5+ i.e. an acid bomb does 10+ damage (7-8 from the explosion + 5 from the dot at the beginning of the enemies turn). that means that 1 acid bomb can kill an entire squad in one action (salvo does not end your turn). the biggest problem i have with chain shot is the aim penalty.

There are lots of ways to mitigate aim penalties, and the way Chain Shot works is that the second shot benefits from the fact that the first one marks the target if (as is probable) you have holo-targeting.

the regular (i.e. non avatar) version of vortex is rather bad damage wise. keep in mind that on higher difficulties enemies also have more hit points.

At least on Normal, it seems that the associated free insanity effect almost always triggers, and this deals extra damage plus rupture. I routinely kill one or more enemies with the vortex.

i thought that map generation works like lego blocks, each block is hand crafted but the assembly of the blocks is done via an algorithm. in that sense the gateway is just another larger lego block, but the map on the whole is procedural generated. in that sense i have no disagreement with you.

That's how I understand it as well, but I didn't find the gateway block very interesting - just another open area. I happened to have a map with cliffs surrounding it, so I got to hit everything from higher elevation. And I understand that it's typical of procedurally generated maps that - as happens in X-COM 2 - the generation algorithms are biased in favour more open blocks because this assists pathing, and also leads to more naturalistic arrangements than buildings spawning everywhere without gaps.

imho currently the missions just pop up without any coherence with the strategic layer. suddenly a train can be raided, suddenly a vip needs rescue, suddenly a ufo lands and so on.

Surely that's very much in keeping with the setting's nature casting you as a resistance hub - you aren't in charge of organising, you're just the strike team others call on when they have an opportunity for you.

outside the story line there is no narrative on the campaign map and tying missions together could provide this. it could also force difficult decisions on the player, e.g. one team sneaks a transmitter on a train, while another team executes the ambush. or one team get's one the train, the train moves to a black site and the same team has to destroy the black site, i.e. any items spend or soldiers lost will not be available in the second mission.

A linked mission like the latter would be an interesting twist, certainly, but feels more like a story mission than the typical course of events (also, if you have a team blowing up aliens around a train, it's a bit far-fetched to think that the aliens would just set the train on its way without checking for stowaways. Though that does raise the alternative possibility of missions where you have to go in dark - and so can't use explosives or have other kit restrictions).

One thing that does limit the need to make hard choices is the long times between missions - in XCOM it was quite common that wounds would force you to use a secondary squad, and it was very important to keep everyone healthy. With Guerrilla Tactics and a long time between missions, it's rare for me to have more than one or occasionally two soldiers out of action by the time a mission comes around.

i don't mind unique tilesets or larger unique areas in an overall procedural generated map. but i would dislike the static maps from xcom1. another reason xcom1 maps sucked was that enemy placement was fixed as well as xcom starting position. long war fixed that.

The fact that the mod could fix the starting position issue shows that it's not a fundamental problem for fully-crafted maps. But there are plenty of good XCOM maps that would be welcome as one-off maps and that I prefer to anything I've seen in the sequel - the train and battleship maps from Slingshot, the observatory, the paper factory, the terror maps, the fiendishly hard construction site map, the Chryssalid fishing port map, the base defence map, and others.

well the problem is rather that the retaliation missions are mechanically not the best design. it does not help that bradford constantly yells at you either.

My point is that the 'civilian counter' is a large part of what makes them a fairly bad design. The fact that they're just terror missions transferred to a new setting where they aren't all that appropriate doesn't really help. The sort of map restrictions a resistance camp demands (at least as portrayed here) don't really suit the needs of a terror mission tactically, never mind the excessive numbers of civilians randomly standing around - while I can accept that most resistance groups are involved in clandestine activities like hacking, sabotage and laying mines - and so wouldn't be armed or able to defend themselves against direct attack - these would be people primed to hide from aliens, so standing around doing nothing makes less sense than for civilians subjected to an unexpected attack (and it's never been that plausible there). Also, as a very minor point, it's a nice touch that civilians now have names, but they should be drawn from region-specific pools rather than having the same mix of nationalities wherever in the world the mission takes place.

if i remember correctly the base assaults in UFO depended on your base layout.

You had a lift and corridors leading from it in exactly the same way, facilities leading off it in exactly the same way, and every facility was the same shape or size except for hangers. To all intents and purposes the map was the same every time.

my main problem with the strategic layer (not speaking of avenger base management, research etc., but the map interactions) is that it is very simplistic, has no real connection to the missions which just pop out of nowhere and has little strategy involved. i agree with the rest of your sentiments though.

The map has never had any real connection to missions in X-COM games beyond providing mission targets - in the original two they didn't even allow you to adjust your income through such things as resistance contacts/satellites, nor did the original games have anything equivalent to an intel resource. There was no connection between missions more complex than "you shot down a UFO, now you can send troops to that UFO".

The only way the tactical layer was linked to the strategic layer was through equipment/bodies used for research and alloys/elerium used in construction - exactly as now. Where the current game falls is in these two areas - alloys etc. are too abundant to be a limiting factor, to the extent that I can just pass up alloy resistance leads, and tech isn't linked to battlefield artefacts. With the possible exception of Apocalypse, XCOM2 has the most sophisticated strategy map layer in the series.

I'd still like a way to get UFO missions back if one can be found that's in keeping with the game's theme, but given that the resistance can't plausibly have aircraft and the aliens don't need to use UFOs when they have terrestrial and airborne transports, it's not clear how to do this. A facility that gives the Avenger weapons and lets it attack transports, maybe? Not very fulfilling when transports contain only one mob each, though.
 
There are lots of ways to mitigate aim penalties, and the way Chain Shot works is that the second shot benefits from the fact that the first one marks the target if (as is probable) you have holo-targeting.
afaik the first shot needs to hit in the first place, else you won't even get the second one. aim is usually the stat that i boost the most on my grenadiers (superior scopes and perception for 100+ aim), but for single target rupture is more than enough (especially if you bring 3 grenadiers per mission).

The map has never had any real connection to missions in X-COM games beyond providing mission targets - in the original two they didn't even allow you to adjust your income through such things as resistance contacts/satellites
1) where you shoot down a ufo determines the map, i.e. shoot down a ufo in the arctic and you get snowy landscape. it did not have much of a gameplay impact but it was noticeable.
2) where you placed your base matters for income as countries would defect if aliens did infiltration mission. having radar coverage over rich countries was important
3) base managment and ufo interception were not as shallow as in xcom1. i always enjoyed gathering up my interceptors for a multi-interceptor shootdown.
4) also damaged ufos tended to land for repairs, triggering ufo assault missions.
5) you could patrol interceptors over areas to find ufos or alien bases
while many of the points are minor the overall strategic layer was a bit more involved and was fun on it's own. compare that to xcom1 where you had a button "wait for next event" or xcom2 "choose your waiting location until next event". in ufo defense you were proactive, but maybe this is me remembering things with rose-coloured glasses.


I'd still like a way to get UFO missions back if one can be found that's in keeping with the game's theme, but given that the resistance can't plausibly have aircraft and the aliens don't need to use UFOs when they have terrestrial and airborne transports, it's not clear how to do this. A facility that gives the Avenger weapons and lets it attack transports, maybe? Not very fulfilling when transports contain only one mob each, though.
easy:
mission 1a) raid an advent supply station for loot
mission 1b) place x4 detonator inside supply of the supply station (no loot)

mission 2) ufo picks up loot and explodes during flight -> ufo raiding mission (loot + facility build time setback)

there are other means of bringing down ufos:
-advent signal forgeries that call for ufo support (after hacking an advent emitter)
-intel (interrogate advent vip) that reveals ufo flight path so you can setup a makeshift anti ufo missile


At least on Normal, it seems that the associated free insanity effect almost always triggers, and this deals extra damage plus rupture. I routinely kill one or more enemies with the vortex
on commander i never killed anything that was undamaged by vortex alone. the insanity also does not always trigger, e.g. if line of sight is blocked. imho there are quite a few abilities that i would rate far higher than vortex, i.e. stasis, domination and null lance.


Surely that's very much in keeping with the setting's nature casting you as a resistance hub - you aren't in charge of organising, you're just the strike team others call on when they have an opportunity for you.
i disagree to the extend that you actually gather intel on the avenger itself, e.g. if you capture a vip, he/she will be interrogated on the avenger. if you hack a workstation it is your soldier and not some resistance fighter out in the woods that gathers the information. there is currently only one interaction between missions and the strategic layer and that is that you can free your own soldiers that you have abandoned in the field on earlier mission. i would love to greatly expand that, i.e. the way you approach mission leads to other missions and a changed strategic layer, e.g. kill a vip and it shortens the retaliation counter, capture the vip and you get some sabotage mission etc.

all in all i would really like the aliens to actually have an economy/game of their own that you could sabotage. the long war mod did this to some extend where the aliens would trigger different missions depending on how dangerous they viewed xcom (the amount of successful missions, especially alien base assaults) and how much resources they had (based on how many supply ships you raid or bases you destroy).


My point is that the 'civilian counter' is a large part of what makes them a fairly bad design. The fact that they're just terror missions transferred to a new setting where they aren't all that appropriate doesn't really help. The sort of map restrictions a resistance camp demands (at least as portrayed here) don't really suit the needs of a terror mission tactically, never mind the excessive numbers of civilians randomly standing around - while I can accept that most resistance groups are involved in clandestine activities like hacking, sabotage and laying mines - and so wouldn't be armed or able to defend themselves against direct attack - these would be people primed to hide from aliens, so standing around doing nothing makes less sense than for civilians subjected to an unexpected attack (and it's never been that plausible there).
i agree with you there. what would be cool would be a mission type to hold a position for a few turns from alien assault together with some resistance rookies until the resistance can evacuate and relocate inside the region. also the retaliation counter seems unfitting narratively. i am sure the aliens would strike at every opportunity at xcom and not just every x weeks.

One thing that does limit the need to make hard choices is the long times between missions - in XCOM it was quite common that wounds would force you to use a secondary squad, and it was very important to keep everyone healthy. With Guerrilla Tactics and a long time between missions, it's rare for me to have more than one or occasionally two soldiers out of action by the time a mission comes around.
only in long war. i never needed a b-team in vanilla xcom. i think on the tactical layer both games are too volatile which leads to a gameplay where you always end your turn with all activated enemies dead or under heavy control (stasis, stun, suppression, mimic beacon. personally i would like to a shift where it is possible to actually have a standard engagement of one to three rounds. this would require less overall damage, stronger cover (i.e. not as easily destroyable) and crit reduction when in cover.
 
1) where you shoot down a ufo determines the map, i.e. shoot down a ufo in the arctic and you get snowy landscape. it did not have much of a gameplay impact but it was noticeable.

That's true - it didn't have much of a gameplay impact... Cosmetically nice, but in general terms the same applies now save that you only occasionally get to choose which missions you take.

2) where you placed your base matters for income as countries would defect if aliens did infiltration mission. having radar coverage over rich countries was important

So important that I pretty much dismiss that as a strategic consideration - if you're playing UFO and your first base isn't either in Europe, China (with coverage over Canada and the US) or North Africa (with coverage over Egypt and major European states), you're playing the game wrong. Strategically it's on a par with XCOM 1's satellites, only without the Second Wave option to randomise which countries are rich.

I would agree that it's a downside to XCOM 2 in this regard that you can never permanently lose resistance contacts, and can only ever lose income through failed terror missions.

3) base managment and ufo interception were not as shallow as in xcom1. i always enjoyed gathering up my interceptors for a multi-interceptor shootdown.

You could sometimes pull off multi-interceptor attacks in XCOM - not all that often, since UFOs seemed primed to speed away from the second one most of the time - but it was possible. And you already mentioned that you were considering base management (which is generally rose-tinted in the eyes of those who pine for the opportunity to build exactly the same stuff in exactly the same configuration in half a dozen different bases) separately from the map.

4) also damaged ufos tended to land for repairs, triggering ufo assault missions.

True, but you had fairly limited say in just where they'd land, and occasionally they'd return to a base.

5) you could patrol interceptors over areas to find ufos or alien bases

I'd originally thought that if you were at base gathering intel, you'd have a greater chance to detect dark event mission opportunities, which would serve the same basic function, but with more experience that seems not to be the case - these seemed to spawn at predetermined times exactly like the missions in XCOM.

while many of the points are minor the overall strategic layer was a bit more involved and was fun on it's own. compare that to xcom1 where you had a button "wait for next event" or xcom2 "choose your waiting location until next event".

Mechanically I really don't think "wait for next UFO/choose UFO to chase" is strategically any different from the newer games, but I do agree that it had the magical ability of '90s games to make it seem a lot more immersive than just clicking buttons and waiting, even if I was probably fastforwarding on the Geoscape more often in UFO than in XCOM 2. And at least you had different size classes etc. of UFOs and could choose which to engage and which to shoot down over the sea.

easy:
mission 1a) raid an advent supply station for loot
mission 1b) place x4 detonator inside supply of the supply station (no loot)

mission 2) ufo picks up loot and explodes during flight -> ufo raiding mission (loot + facility build time setback)

I like the idea, but I don't get the sense from the narrative that the aliens use UFOs for that sort of thing - they're long-established on Earth and just need railways and transports. The only UFOs that ever appear or are described are ones that actively hunt you.

on commander i never killed anything that was undamaged by vortex alone. the insanity also does not always trigger, e.g. if line of sight is blocked. imho there are quite a few abilities that i would rate far higher than vortex, i.e. stasis, domination and null lance.

A Magus is going to have every ability going anyway, and if it comes to that grenades aren't usually going to kill anything directly either - even acid grenades won't burn down anything tougher than a Chryssalid or ADVENT soldier without help. A grenade with a decent radius, much longer range, unlimited use and a likelihood of killing the same sorts of targets through insanity (usually with a more-or-less valuable side effect like panic or disorientation, while rupturing survivors) is not to be turned down. I'd rank it along with stasis and domination, and situationally it can be better than either.

all in all i would really like the aliens to actually have an economy/game of their own that you could sabotage. the long war mod did this to some extend where the aliens would trigger different missions depending on how dangerous they viewed xcom (the amount of successful missions, especially alien base assaults) and how much resources they had (based on how many supply ships you raid or bases you destroy).

I never played Long War, but I agree with this. The Dark Event system feels gamey and arbitrary to me (and because missions to counter events and the events they counter are randomised, there's no logical relationship between succeeding in the mission and countering that event. Some just don't make sense as events to counter - you can counter ADVENT increasing its vigilance by ... launching additional attacks that should put them on alert?), and isn't really any more than window dressing on exactly the same types of mission choice as in the last game. It was advertised in reviews as making it feel you're facing an enemy with an agenda, but by contrast this feels to me an area where immersion is sorely lacking. The name 'Dark Event' hardly helps - why not something like Security Measures or Counterterrorism Initiative (which would even highlight the police state theme)?

i agree with you there. what would be cool would be a mission type to hold a position for a few turns from alien assault together with some resistance rookies until the resistance can evacuate and relocate inside the region. also the retaliation counter seems unfitting narratively. i am sure the aliens would strike at every opportunity at xcom and not just every x weeks.

Yes, I agree with all of this. The facility and retaliation counters are both troubling - at the very least this should be hidden information that you can acquire through intel leads. How would XCOM have foreknowledge of base construction?

only in long war. i never needed a b-team in vanilla xcom.

Have you ever played it with Marathon enabled?

i think on the tactical layer both games are too volatile which leads to a gameplay where you always end your turn with all activated enemies dead or under heavy control (stasis, stun, suppression, mimic beacon. personally i would like to a shift where it is possible to actually have a standard engagement of one to three rounds. this would require less overall damage, stronger cover (i.e. not as easily destroyable) and crit reduction when in cover.

If anything XCOM 1 seemed better at this, with enemies retreating when outgunned - it does sometimes happen in XCOM 2. And the mimic beacon is just too powerful an effect - all it should do is create a phantom soldier that the AI treats like any other soldier, so that it will be the subject of some enemy fire (and prioritised if left in the open, but with the cost that it will die sooner leaving your forces exposed to any other activated enemies). There's no logic either in its narrative description or in gameplay necessity for it to distract every enemy. Plus psionic enemies should be immune as they'd be able to identify that it isn't real. Also fix the dialogue so that soldiers don't refer to a soldier going down if the mimic beacon is killed before it evaporates.
 
One thing i did just notice - you know when the skyranger says "in the pipe, 5 by 5". That is a blatant nod to aliens right there. As that is what the pilot says in the second film (cant remember her name).
 
i think if you make a game/film with aliens and dropships the quote has to be there :)

The only UFOs that ever appear or are described are ones that actively hunt you.
there are two types of missions involving ufo: one the is the hunter killer, the other is a raid on a landed ufo, however it is not clearly stated why it does land. the mission is rather rare though.

A grenade with a decent radius, much longer range, unlimited use and a likelihood of killing the same sorts of targets through insanity (usually with a more-or-less valuable side effect like panic or disorientation, while rupturing survivors) is not to be turned down. I'd rank it along with stasis and domination, and situationally it can be better than either.
this really depends on the mission type. on missions where there is a limit grenadiers are better because you can use two grenades a turn. with my 3 grenadiers i dispatched 3 pods in one round and another in the next. psi soldiers or soldiers that relied more on cooldowns would have problem with that. on longer missions with more enemies (like the last one) without time limit cooldowns are better.
 
I'm surprised to see people say the AWC is a luxury facility. It is mission critical for me, and is the second facility I build, sometimes even before the Guerilla School. The addition of a few extra perks for characters from the AWC is ancillary to doubling the healing rate.
 
Yeah, for me, the AWC is a top priority behind the GTS. I don't even care about the extra perk (that's just a fun thing on the side, which can give you some more options in combat); it's all about that healing boost.
 
I really hope the expansion expands upon scientists/labs and maybe even tweaks the way we research things. I really like what was done with engineers, but scientists are still so boring compared to them. Maybe once gene mods are reintroduced, they'll do something cool with them too.

I'm still on my first main playthrough on Veteran. My soldiers are equipped with plate/plasma and I haven't lost a soldier yet, haha. Objective-wise, I have to construct the Shadow Chamber, which I keep putting off. I just want to experience the story before I start punishing myself with C/I (hopefully, Firaxis squashes some bugs before I start it too!).

Anyway, are the tech costs much higher on Commander versus Veteran? I hope so. I forget how many scientists I have, but it's not many, and I feel like I don't even really need any more. Engineers, on the other hand... I need more, more, more!
 
Yeah, for me, the AWC is a top priority behind the GTS. I don't even care about the extra perk (that's just a fun thing on the side, which can give you some more options in combat); it's all about that healing boost.

In some ways I actually think the awc is worth avoiding. The healing rate is nice but not crucial. You should have other options to fall back on. But where it really gets let down imo is on the free perk. On the face of it this sounds great. How can it possibly be bad. I don't know the exact chance of gaining a certain perk, or whether some are more likely than others, but the perk I got for my sniper was actually a very bad one. I got given phantom and my sniper had kill zone. The best thing about kill zone is in using it when you break concealment and your sniper shoots all enemies once. He doesn't do that when concealed, which pretty much ruins the perk. They should make phantom specific to the ranger class or freeze it out of the awc altogether. Phantom on a specialist with guardian would also be a bad thing (50% of another over watch shot if the first one hits).
 
In some ways I actually think the awc is worth avoiding. The healing rate is nice but not crucial. You should have other options to fall back on.

That's exactly why I prefer to have it, it gives me more soldier options to fall back on when they're healed-up and ready. I cycle soldiers, but I like to have as many different types as I can healthy and ready for whatever pops up. I slightly favor different classes/abilities for different mission types.

But where it really gets let down imo is on the free perk. On the face of it this sounds great. How can it possibly be bad. I don't know the exact chance of gaining a certain perk, or whether some are more likely than others, but the perk I got for my sniper was actually a very bad one. I got given phantom and my sniper had kill zone. The best thing about kill zone is in using it when you break concealment and your sniper shoots all enemies once. He doesn't do that when concealed, which pretty much ruins the perk. They should make phantom specific to the ranger class or freeze it out of the awc altogether. Phantom on a specialist with guardian would also be a bad thing (50% of another over watch shot if the first one hits).

Yeah, that's a good example of the randomness really screwing things up. Sure, you can change up your playstyle and try to utilize the extra perk, but you're giving up a really potent ambush combo on missions where everybody starts concealed.

I've never used the "Retrain" feature of the AWC, but according to the wiki page below, it looks like you're still stuck with the random perk:

http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Advanced_Warfare_Center

Also, the existing "bug" it describes there is kinda lame. I initially thought it was fine to have the option of delaying the AWC, but apparently not.

Regarding Phantom, maybe they should change it so that you only stay revealed if you're not on overwatch. This way, if you overwatch (or use somewhat similar abilities, such as Kill Zone), then you'll fire and reveal yourself with the others. This, however, messes with other instances you may be going into overwatch just for safety to end your turn while concealed.

Another simpler solution, which may be better, would be to introduce a second button when you have Phantom, called Ambush or something, which is somewhat like an activated ability or toggle. When it's active, your soldier will automatically reveal themselves and overwatch, kill zone, etc. It would be somewhat like the Reaper or Serial buttons, which simply put your soldier into another state and don't cast an action. This ambush button wouldn't need a cooldown or anything, because it's simply lost once you're revealed. This way, if your overwatch or anything else didn't trigger, you'll remain concealed and can try it again.
 
That's exactly why I prefer to have it, it gives me more soldier options to fall back on when they're healed-up and ready. I cycle soldiers, but I like to have as many different types as I can healthy and ready for whatever pops up. I slightly favor different classes/abilities for different mission types.



Yeah, that's a good example of the randomness really screwing things up. Sure, you can change up your playstyle and try to utilize the extra perk, but you're giving up a really potent ambush combo on missions where everybody starts concealed.

I've never used the "Retrain" feature of the AWC, but according to the wiki page below, it looks like you're still stuck with the random perk:

http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Advanced_Warfare_Center

Also, the existing "bug" it describes there is kinda lame. I initially thought it was fine to have the option of delaying the AWC, but apparently not.

Regarding Phantom, maybe they should change it so that you only stay revealed if you're not on overwatch. This way, if you overwatch (or use somewhat similar abilities, such as Kill Zone), then you'll fire and reveal yourself with the others. This, however, messes with other instances you may be going into overwatch just for safety to end your turn while concealed.

Another simpler solution, which may be better, would be to introduce a second button when you have Phantom, called Ambush or something, which is somewhat like an activated ability or toggle. When it's active, your soldier will automatically reveal themselves and overwatch, kill zone, etc. It would be somewhat like the Reaper or Serial buttons, which simply put your soldier into another state and don't cast an action. This ambush button wouldn't need a cooldown or anything, because it's simply lost once you're revealed. This way, if your overwatch or anything else didn't trigger, you'll remain concealed and can try it again.

Yes, that would be a simple solution. I do sometimes think i would like that option on my ranger too, as you dont always want to remain concealed (like if you are facing the last pod of aliens or something). But on a sniper its just plain terrible and woth not building the AWC at all just in case you get it. Same on a specialist or any other overwatch type build. It is a great perk but only in a niche way.
 
Anyway, are the tech costs much higher on Commander versus Veteran? I hope so. I forget how many scientists I have, but it's not many, and I feel like I don't even really need any more. Engineers, on the other hand... I need more, more, more!
on my commander playthrough i got along with 4 scientist and no labs easily. research is really an afterthought especially since you are much more restricted in alloys/elerium/elerium cores/supplies than research time.

on my legendary playthrough i have a laboratory with the continent bonus that boosts laboratories further + 6 scientist + 2 scientists in the laboratory and research is almost as fast as on commander difficulty which is quite a lot since everything on legendary difficulty takes much longer.
 
I can see how Phantom interferes with Kill Zone. Instead, use the AWC to retrain for Faceoff. Phantom plus Faceoff is pretty incredible.
 
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