Yomiuri opposes Yasukuni Shrine visits

GrandAdmiral said:
^


As prime minister, he is in charge of sending Japanese troops to fight and die if needed and they have to do so regardless of their beliefs. So he is somewhat obligated to honor war dead because they have to die based on the decisions of someone in his position. If he didn't visit the shrine it would probably be only because he let China and Korea interfere with its domestic affairs and that would be turning his back on past and present troops.

You do understand that Japan has practically no military whatsoever? They disarmed after WWII. IIRC, the first Japanese military action since WWII was to send a couple hundred men to Iraq to serve in non-combat roles.

Having spent 6 weeks in Japan last summer, I can say that anyone who thinks that the majority of the Japanese are militaristic is clearly off his rocker. They're basically just like Americans. However, every country attracts its share of nutjobs.

Though, really, something just occured to me. In the South, many people still take a largely pro-Confederacy view of the Civil War. While I do not know of anything that Southern soldiers did that is comparable to such things as the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking, there was the little issue of human slavery.

Isn't this sort of similar? In fact, didn't the South Carolina state assembly fly the Confederate flag up until recently under the pretext of acknowledging their history? Just putting questions out there.
 
Source: miltary spending
World TOP 10 - MILITARY SPENDING COUNTRIES
Country In Billion Dollars
United States 335.7
Japan 46.7
United Kingdom 36
France 33.6
China 31.1
Germany 27.7
Saudi Arabia 21.6
Italy 21.1
Iran 17.5
South Korea 13.5
Japan has the 2nd largest military expenditure of the whole world. While I admit that Japanese as people does not seems to be militaristic, it is a worrying trend nevertheless.
 
Hmm. Never knew that. I suppose they're worried about China and North Korea.
 
Also, DragonRunner, Japan has a small Army but its Navy is pretty impressive. 2nd largest in the world behind the US Navy.
 
Well, you learn something new every day.
 
Uiler said:
Through this all you have refused to address the most direct and obvious comparison - the German President worshipping at a shrine devoted to the German war dead, but which is neo-Nazi and denies the Holocaust.

This is the most direct comparison, not the US war memorial. Why would the German case be unacceptable but Yasukuni OK?

Stop beating around the bush and address this issue directly.

No-one has ever suggested pulling down Yasukuni. Yasukuni will still be there if people want to go there. Yasukuni is hardly equivalent to a US war memorial. Yasukuni is the equivalent of a neo-Nazi shrine glorifying Adolf Hitler and denying the Holocaust and run by neo-Nazis that do the Hitler salute every morning and run by people who admire people who committed some of the most brutal atrocities in human history and believe in the "superior race". If you believe that a US war memorial is the same as a neo-Nazi shrine, then I think you just greatly insulted the US. So was the US actions in WWII equivalent to the Nazis? I mean they both believed in patriotism and both fought in the same war and both suffered a lot of dead. Or are you saying, they're both birds so the chicken and the hawk are the same animals?

Also the secular war shrine has appeal amongst the Japanese themselves.

I was trying to make the comparison that if Bush ever associated with the head of the KKK, people would consider him tactictly approving of their racist ideals.

You know why Koizumi visits Yasukuni? It was an election promise. Prior to that he showed no real interest in the subject. At the election he tried to win votes by saying he will visit yasukuni every year. Basically he went to Yasukuni and why LDP politicians go there is the same reason why the Republican party caters to fundamentalist Christians - the war shrine supporters form a small but influential group that raises a lot of funds and organises votes.


Once again you completely dodge the issue by using a comparison that makes no sense.

Please address the comparisons I raised directly. You keep on avoiding them and raising up comparisons which make no sense as they rely on equating US actions in WWII with Japanese (the Japanese were no worse than the US you are saying) instead of addressing the comparisons *I* made. In fact I noticed that you have managed to avoid mentioning at all the Nazi shrine comparison. In arguments I ususally find people do this when they simply have no reply and thus need to quickly switch the argument to ground better for them.

First of I all think I need to make it clear that unlike you I'm not arguing my preferences.

I didn't refuse to do anything. I did mention the Germans in my 3rd paragraph and how their situation is different. I think the American comparison is better because American leaders act more like the Koizumi in regards to their war memorials. But if the German leader did do the same thing as the Koizumi you could make the same argument I did. I don't agree with the messages at Yasukini shrine that downplay Japanese attrocities and I wouldn't agree with a message that downplays the holocaust, but I would still ask the same question I did of opposition to the Koizumi visits.

Would I condider all these visits to all these shrines and memorials to be the same? No but its mainly because of personal preference, bias and the fact that my my country has never been occupied. The US didn't loose a world war and get occupied by any major powers and that is the sole reason we are not accepting shame based on war crimes. But I know arguments could be made otherwise and many people think we are war criminals because of our current actions. Like I said I'm not making points based on my personal preference, if they are insults to my country I could care less and maybe we deserve it.

What direct American comparison?

Nuking the Japanese and being proud of it. Anyone else do that?

Did America ever have a racist ideology that believed in the master race?

Jim Crow laws and slavery ring a bell?

Did America ever invade other countries, putting tens of millions (most civilians) to the sword?

We aren't old enough for swords but our body count is pretty high and we have invaded more nations that Japan and Germany. By the way, we aren't done yet.

Did America ever perform live vivisections on people because they believed they were "inferior"?

No we aren't that weird.

Did America enslave the other countries, working them to death?

Not the entire country but yes before WWII.

The most direct equivalent would be an American shrine *glorifying slavery* or glorifying a particularly henious massacre of innocent native Indian women and childeren. And how long do you think *that* would last in America?

Who do you think owned slaves? The guys on our money did. And to make matters more similar we honor them not because they owned slaves but for other reasons. Its a bad argument your trying to make as we are the masters at honoring things and people when they have blood on their hands.

Do you believe that Bush going to worship at a church with a big monument in front glorifying slavery in the US (slaves loved their masters. They lived in harmony - in fact slaves *chose* to serve their masters because they were so wonderful. It was only when the evil North invaded out of greed that things went wrong with a big picture of a Negro slave happily worshipping at the feet of a white man) would be wrong?

Comparisons that don't make sense? Your loosing focus but I think Bush and his vice president eat babies for breakfast and I wouldn't be suprised if they did such a thing. If I don't respond to anything its because its too long and I lost track. Comparing domestic racism to war crimes is not a good comparison.

You know why Koizumi visits Yasukuni? It was an election promise. Prior to that he showed no real interest in the subject. At the election he tried to win votes by saying he will visit yasukuni every year. Basically he went to Yasukuni and why LDP politicians go there is the same reason why the Republican party caters to fundamentalist Christians - the war shrine supporters form a small but influential group that raises a lot of funds and organises votes.

Thats the really the best part of your post. A lot of the other stuff was very redundant.
 
DragonRunner said:
Hmm. Never knew that. I suppose they're worried about China and North Korea.

Yeah he beat me to it but Japan has an impressive navy. 2nd largest fleet of Aegis warships whith their own upgraded version of Aegis that would be superior if it weren't for the lack of Tomohawks. Their army and air force isn't a joke either, well equipped, Apaches, American hardware and domestic versions of it, F-15 and F-16 variants like the Israelis. They just don't have power projection, not even ballistic missiles. But I don't consider them to be militaristic. The do have the 2nd most powerfull economy in the world right after the US. The fear comes from China, North Korea and before the Soviets.
 
Bugfatty300 said:
Also, DragonRunner, Japan has a small Army but its Navy is pretty impressive. 2nd largest in the world behind the US Navy.

Really? Wow. Where did you hear that?:confused:

I had always known that they were in the top tier of military spenders, but I had never known they had that large of a navy.
 
Uiler said:
...live vivisections...

Trust me, thats not the worst of what they did.
 
Dawgphood001 said:
Really? Wow. Where did you hear that?:confused:

I had always known that they were in the top tier of military spenders, but I had never known they had that large of a navy.

Various sources. Though the UK may be 2nd and Japan 3rd, China has more ships by defacto but they're mostly old subs and smaller brown water ships.
 
Dawgphood001 said:
Really? Wow. Where did you hear that?:confused:

I had always known that they were in the top tier of military spenders, but I had never known they had that large of a navy.

Every source I have seen that list military spending puts them at about 40billion USD.
 
Uiler said:
...The Phillipines - I'm not sure. They made their peace with America too and the Americans were pretty brutal as well. I do know though that Japan is a very popular place for Phillipines to go to work and the Phillipines have been trying to get agreements from japan to allow more of their citizens in...
The Philippines is too poor to afford such luxuries like historical gripes. It needs all the tricklings of trade and investment that it can attract in the region.

Plus, as a race we have notoriously short memories. Marcos's wife and children are now not only back in the coiuntry, they've been elected to government posts! :crazyeye:

Here's a joke about our relationship with Japan:
The year is 1942. The scene is a small village somewhere in Luzon. A man is running along the dirt road leading to the village, screaming at the top of his lungs: "The Japanese are coming! The Japanese are coming! Everyone hurry and hide your daughters!!!"
The year is 1987. The scene is the same village. A man is once again running along the dirt road leading to the village, screaming at the top of his lungs: "The Japanese are coming! The Japanese are coming! Everyone hurry and bring out your daughters!!!"
 
Dann said:
The Philippines is too poor to afford such luxuries like historical gripes. It needs all the tricklings of trade and investment that it can attract in the region.

Plus, as a race we have notoriously short memories. Marcos's wife and children are now not only back in the coiuntry, they've been elected to government posts! :crazyeye:

Here's a joke about our relationship with Japan:
The year is 1942. The scene is a small village somewhere in Luzon. A man is running along the dirt road leading to the village, screaming at the top of his lungs: "The Japanese are coming! The Japanese are coming! Everyone hurry and hide your daughters!!!"
The year is 1987. The scene is the same village. A man is once again running along the dirt road leading to the village, screaming at the top of his lungs: "The Japanese are coming! The Japanese are coming! Everyone hurry and bring out your daughters!!!"

Lolol. Ya, same situation with the Malays in Singapore. As they were not brutally prosecuted, they has not much bad impression of the Japanese invasion. Same goes with Malaysia, Thailand and Vietnam. I think.

@uiler - good post there, i agreed with what u said. The japanese must learned from their mistake or else we are afraid that they might repeat it again.
 
One thing I want to make clear is I don't hate the Japanese. I dislike their government, esp. the right-wingers but I have plenty of Japanese friends and I know full well that not everyone thinks like the right-wingers do. Also, as I said I admire the current Emperor who unlike the ones acting in his name, acknowledges history. Also in the court cases by victims they are often supported by groups of Japanese people. Japanese historians have also done a lot to dig up the truth. For example, the government continued to deny deny the existence of comfort women for decades until a Japanese historian dug up proof of their existence and the army's direct role in the horrible events.

However, Japan as a country is torn. It is not like Germany where 99% of people fully accept history and Nazi atrocities are internalised. It is torn between those who accept history and those who don't. And unfortunately it seems that those who don't - as personified by Yasukuni are winning. Those who are prone to revisionism are in the positions of power (e.g. Aso's - our colonialisation of Taiwan was good for Taiwan! The next PM and current Foreign Minister). One of my Japanese friends told me that those who don't support this sort of stuff have fallen in power over the last decade (well a lot of them fell to corruption scandals unfortunately...) and the ones who are militaristic have risen to the top.

This is an important time for Japan. As the article says, soon all the survivors of WWII will be dead. There will be no more old men to stand up to the revisionists, to say, that "I was there. I fought. And what you are saying are lies. It wasn't glorious. It wasn't a victory." There will be no more old Japanese soldiers to insist that the Rape of Nanking took place - because they participated in it and saw it happen with their own eyes. There will be no more old Japanese men to admit that they cut Chinese and Korean prisoners open alive, to be testament to the brainwashing and extremism and racism of the time. It is these old men who keep the revisionists in check. Because they can say, "I was there. I suffered. I know the truth. I saw it with my own eyes." When they are gone, who will there be to oppose the Yasukunis, which already have government approval? If it was Germany I would not be worried as 99% of the people there accept history. They may feel that they shouldn't be blamed but they do not try to deny history. Acceptance of history is internalised in modern Germany.

However in Japan, even the official government war shrine is revisionist and refuses to accept history. With their mouths they say "Japan did wrong" to English speaking audiences but let us look at their actions not their words. It took decades for the Japanese government to even acknowledge the comfort women existed and they still refuse to pay any compensation. It took decades and court cases for them to even admit that they performed experiments on live human beings. Korean and Chinese men who were forced to go to Japan as slaves in WWII and who survived the atomic bombs were not until recently invited to any memorials or offered government assistance for their health. Non-Japanese who were forcibly conscripted into the Japanese army and were enshrined in Yasukuni - their families have been trying for decades to get the government to unenshrine them but they refuse. It is clear that the Japanese government is revisionist and only grudgingly accepts tibits of history if you push long enough (decades) and quite literally drag them kicking and screaming into the light. And then they will only admit the barest minimum that they can get away with. And forget about any compensation. Remember, barest minimum that they can get away with. When the old soldiers are gone and all the old victims are dead, what will be the force be that will spend decades to drive the Japanese govenrnment to admit to something, anything? What will stop backsliding? Western nations show barely any interest as it is now. The American government might be embarassed by revelations they helped cover up crimes after WWII so I doubt there will be much pressure from the West. The Japanese people, especially the young ones have not internalised history so I doubt that there will be substantial domestic pressure. What will stop the revisionism once the victims are dead and the court cases stop? There will be no international pressure because the West doesn't care. Only Asians will care and the Japanese like giving the finger to other Asians anyway. Domestic pressure will obviously not exist in substantial amounts, esp. since the revisionists are in power.

So it is important for changes to occur now, when the victims are still alive and the old Japanese soldiers are still alive to bear witness. Even now, the truth is barely holding on in Japan, mainly through the efforts of the old Japanese soldiers and the victims who spend decades fighting the government just to extract the bare minimum of acknowledgments. When they are gone, I don't see much hope. If Japan doesn't internalise the past now, it will never happen in the future once all the witnesses are dead.

Another thing is, if Americans think it has only to do with Chinese and Koreans, think again. If you read the Yasukuni shrine propaganda and you listen to right-wingers like the mayor of Tokyo you will see that America is as much the enemy as China or Korea. America is the evil enemy that conspired to bring Japan to war, dropped atom bombs on Japan, and executed its best and brightest in sham trials. America is evil. Americans throw Japanese babies into fires as a sacrifice to the God (well, not really, but you get the idea). Then America spent decades humilating Japan by ruling it under military oppression. For example an article from the mayor of Tokyo on the Asian Financial Crisis:

http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Concourse/8751/riwa/aw101001.htm (this was original from Time Magazine - I trust that this is an accurate copy...)

LOOKING BACK ON THE panic triggered by the currency crisis in Thailand and the inroads made by the International Monetary Fund (IMF), we can see the subtle strategy America is employing to dominate the world. And we can discern the pathetic role that Japan is made to play. If things continue as they are, Japan and the other nations of East Asia will be nothing more than financial slaves to the U.S. The problem is, most are unaware of it.

Once America had overwhelmed its Soviet rival in the arms race, it came up with a plan to supplement military superiority with control of energy resources. This involved singling out Saddam Hussein of Iraq as the fall guy to win control over the world's largest oil reserves. The U.S. lured him into making a conquest of Kuwait, crushed the invasion and succeeded in its real objective - stationing over 100,000 U.S. troops in the region, mainly in Saudi Arabia.

Now America is embarking on a new phase of its conquest, this time by financial means. Besides its overseas ambitions, there is an important consideration which prompted the U.S. to come up with this step - the crisis in its economy. This was demonstrated a couple of years ago when then Japanese prime minister Hashimoto Ryutaro stated that Japan wished to sell off its U.S. treasury bonds. The next day Wall Street stocks went down on the news. But rather than follow up [its advantage], Japan deferred to its rival. Experts calculated that if Japan sold its entire T-bond portfolio, the dollar could plummet to a mere 50 yen.

http://www.ezipangu.org/english/contents/news/naname/ishihara/ishihara2.html

On why he hates America:

“The Americans could see that we were kids, but they would strafe us anyway, for fun. One day I had to throw myself into a barley field. As I lay there, the Grummans and P-51s came roaring over me, flying low, and I could see that they had pictures of naked women and Mickey Mouse painted on the fuselage. I couldn't believe my eyes! I was scared to death, and angry but I was also thinking what a place America must be, what a culture, and how different from Japan. Then I heard other planes but no machine guns this time; they were Zeros in pursuit, and their insignia was the Japanese flag. I felt like reaching up to embrace that rising sun.”

Oh and this guy has a 70% approval rating in Tokyo.

The rise of the militarism and nationalism in Japan will inevitably coincide with the rise of hatred to America. So don't be surprised if one day, America will once again ask itself as it does now with Muslims, "Why do they hate us? I never saw this coming."
 
Ramius75 said:
Lolol. Ya, same situation with the Malays in Singapore. As they were not brutally prosecuted, they has not much bad impression of the Japanese invasion. Same goes with Malaysia, Thailand and Vietnam. I think.
Actually Filipinos had it worse than the other Southeast Asians during WW2. That's because they were probably the only ones in the region who remained loyal to their colonial masters. Sure a puppet regime was set up in Manila but the countryside was crawling with guerillas. The ethnic Chinese in the Philippines had it easier compared to other places because the Japanese Army was too busy chasing guerillas in the villages.

@Uiler
Same here. Personally I even like Japanese food, computer games and anime. I admire their work ethic, dedication, and even their more open attitude towards sex. If it weren't for the potential danger posed I'd even admire their nationalism.
 
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