"You are a bad Belgian and you have signed your own death warrant."

[Stapel]

Probably a few of the VB members want an ethically pure Flanders,

There will aalways be nutaces indeed. and yes, they are indeed more likely to be found in the VB than in other parties.

but their official stance is to crack down on illegal immigrants, the ones that aren't Belgian or that became Belgian through illegal ways.

It is also this stance that attracts so many voters (and members). And not the ethnic purity bogus.

An interesting thing about splitting Belgium is that there's more Walloons in favour of it then Flemish people, and yet there's 2 Billion Euros flowing from Flanders to the Walloons.

The same applies to England and Scotland or England and Wales. It's a matter of emotion, not of money. (in these cases)

I for one don't want it to split.

This more or less entitles you to answer this question:
Where exactly do Belgian nationalistic feelings come from?

 

[Zeekater]

This more or less entitles you to answer this question:
Where exactly do Belgian nationalistic feelings come from?

From:

"I don't really care either way, so let's keep it the way it is"

 

[Goonie]

For instance, the American culture needs some development towards freedom, before I can regard it as healthy .

Listening to Stapel claim that the United States needs lessons in Freedom is like hearing Hitler preach religious tolerenace.

God bless America!

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Uhh, what was the name of that theory about internet arguements again?
"Once someone starts to compare the other side with Hitler or Nazis, he has automatically lost."


You're out, Goonie.

 

[Stapel]

Listening to Stapel claim that the United States needs lessons in Freedom is like hearing Hitler preach religious tolerenace.

God bless America!

The US and its drugs ban, its attitude on gay-marriage, its 21-alcohol craphola, its prohibition of prostituation, its lack of proper euthanaesia laws?
Sorry, but I don't think that's freedom!

You may think these freedoms harm society (they don't), but they are FREEDOMS nevertheless, and the US lacks them.
So yes, the US needs some lessons in Freedom.

And you comparing it with Hitler preaching about religious tolerance is of rather bad taste, apart from being totally ridiculous.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Ah, "Godwin's Law".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

 

[punkbass2000]

Oh crap, DocT lost.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I'd forgotten the second part when I made the first post, and then it was too late.
Obviously, the discussion is over as well now.

 

[Goonie]

The US and its drugs ban, its attitude on gay-marriage, its 21-alcohol craphola, its prohibition of prostituation, its lack of proper euthanaesia laws?
Sorry, but I don't think that's freedom!

Let us address some key things here.
1)Other than Marijuana, which drugs has the United States outlawed that Holland has not? This is a sticky issue and legalization of Marijuana is not neccesarily the ideal course. While it is a restriction on freedom, is it not for the betterment of society? I know many people who are quite fond of their weed. For most, I do not see it as a problem, but like any drug, there are those that abuse it. Do I think the United States is abhorring freedom by having drug laws? No, I believe it is a minor restriction on freedom with the well being of society en tête.

Do I think the United States Justice System handles the drug problem adequately? No, I do not. I believe less money should be spent on punishing drug abuser and more should be spent on treatment. If we accept Alcholism as a disease, the same should be done for drug addiction. In my eyes, lenghty jail terms are not going to solve the essence of the problem. Treatement of the disease will.

2)I disagree with their policy on gay marriage. This is where I find the United States to be hypocritical in terms of their policies.

3)Scientific studies have shown that Alcohol has a negative impact on the developping brain. That law is in placee to ensure that American children reach their full potential.

I also recently saw a study which showed that Alcoholism is a bigger problem in Europe than it is in North America and they linked this to the drinking age.

Regardless of what the age is, both do indeed have drinking ages. Your point is moot.

4)You say the veil is a symbol of female oppression, yet you think Prostitution should be legalised? 'Nuff said.

5)If someone wants to die, they don't need assistance. They can do it themselves. Having a second person involved in a death will do nothing but create ambiguity which is problematic in the eyes of the court. Euthanasia does happen though. It is called ending life support.

All of these minor restrictions on freedom don't even affect la vie quotidienne and all have their basis in protecting society as a whole.

Now lets look at Europe.
You talk about American drug laws, well what about your Trans-Fat laws?
What about a schoolchild who cannot even wear his cross to school?

My original statement however, was not founded in laws or governments. It was based on how I would feel living in both societies. In the United States I do not see or notice the same amount of hate, xenophobia or religious tension as I have in Europe. If I were a Muslim women, I would much rather live in a tolerant, open society who will judge me based on who I am rather than what I wear on my head. In the United States I would be a person. In Europe I would be the brunt of all the hate and ignorance. For that reason, Europe is not free. It is bounded and restricted by hatred. Blinded by its fear and arrogance.

God Bless America.

And you comparing it with Hitler preaching about religious tolerance is of rather bad taste, apart from being totally ridiculous.

Is it really? I can see the parallels quite easily. Can't you?

 

[Goonie]

Oh,

Nevertheless, there is also a widely-recognized codicil that any intentional invocation of Godwin's law for its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

The UK's BNP, France and LePen, Austrias Freedom party, and others. Looks like Europe has a growing problem on its hands. I did a little reading up on these far right European parties, I reccomend to Americans to do some google research on the far right movement in Europe. Its actually scary. Stapel, the fact that you dont see the growing right wing influence in Europe as a problem is, I think, part of the problem itself. Instead of looking down on the U.S. maybe you should look to the beam in thine own eye first

 

[Stapel]

The UK's BNP, France and LePen, Austrias Freedom party, and others. Looks like Europe has a growing problem on its hands. I did a little reading up on these far right European parties, I reccomend to Americans to do some google research on the far right movement in Europe. Its actually scary. Stapel, the fact that you dont see the growing right wing influence in Europe as a problem is, I think, part of the problem itself. Instead of looking down on the U.S. maybe you should look to the beam in thine own eye first

Well, those are 2 different discussions.

Of course I see the growing right wing influence. I also see it can be a problem.
But, it's a reaction on growing problems with immigrants. I think it is just plain stupid to act like these problems will go away just like that. It's annoying that everyone who notices facts, gets autoblamed for being racist.....
That's really wrong.

 

[Stapel]

Let us address some key things here.
1)Other than Marijuana, which drugs has the United States outlawed that Holland has not? This is a sticky issue and legalization of Marijuana is not neccesarily the ideal course. While it is a restriction on freedom, is it not for the betterment of society? I know many people who are quite fond of their weed. For most, I do not see it as a problem, but like any drug, there are those that abuse it. Do I think the United States is abhorring freedom by having drug laws? No, I believe it is a minor restriction on freedom with the well being of society en tête.

Nonsense, We have less drugs problems here. The restriction actually jeapardises the well being of society.

3)Scientific studies have shown that Alcohol has a negative impact on the developping brain. That law is in placee to ensure that American children reach their full potential.

I also recently saw a study which showed that Alcoholism is a bigger problem in Europe than it is in North America and they linked this to the drinking age.

Regardless of what the age is, both do indeed have drinking ages. Your point is moot.

We have no drinking age. We only have one for buying (16).

4)You say the veil is a symbol of female oppression, yet you think Prostitution should be legalised? 'Nuff said.

I have used many words to explain the symbolic value of a veil is a complicated matter.
I don't really see how prostitution is linked to female oppression. I think both men and women have a right to give sexaul services in return for money.
Anyway:
Restrictions are restrictions. And legalising prostitution has actually decreased the number of women that are victims of abuse in the sex industry.

5)If someone wants to die, they don't need assistance. They can do it themselves. Having a second person involved in a death will do nothing but create ambiguity which is problematic in the eyes of the court. Euthanasia does happen though. It is called ending life support.

By making proper laws, the ambiguity will end. These laws do not only tell what is legal, but also in what circumstances.

All of these minor restrictions on freedom don't even affect la vie quotidienne and all have their basis in protecting society as a whole.

Though they have a basis in protecting society, they do not always succeed.

Now lets look at Europe.

Europeans usually do not claim they are 'the land of the free'......
I realise we have many flaws.

You talk about American drug laws, well what about your Trans-Fat laws?

I don't even know what that could possibly mean. A trans-fat law?

What about a schoolchild who cannot even wear his cross to school?.

He can. I am puzzled where you obtain your false information.

My original statement however, was not founded in laws or governments. It was based on how I would feel living in both societies. In the United States I do not see or notice the same amount of hate, xenophobia or religious tension as I have in Europe.

You can't possibly be serious about this. I guess your opinion is based on discussions like these.

If I were a Muslim women, I would much rather live in a tolerant, open society who will judge me based on who I am rather than what I wear on my head. In the United States I would be a person. In Europe I would be the brunt of all the hate and ignorance. For that reason, Europe is not free. It is bounded and restricted by hatred. Blinded by its fear and arrogance.

Yeah right.
Come on. The Dutch society is still tolerant and open.
What we do not tolerate, is intolerance. That is truely the basis of my point in this thread. Should we tolerate a culture that regards homosexuals as the devil's off spring and regards women as lesser people?
I won't do that!

 

[IglooDame]

Am I the only one who feels some understanding for her crying when she dropped the veil? I don't usually think of myself as the most empathic person here ...

For what it's worth, I empathize with her as well - whatever our feelings on wearing a veil, clearly it was important to her.

And lord knows empathy is the last thing I'm accused of having by fellow OTers...

 

[Goonie]

This is the only statement I have time to speak about.

What we do not tolerate, is intolerance. That is truely the basis of my point in this thread. Should we tolerate a culture that regards homosexuals as the devil's off spring and regards women as lesser people?
I won't do that!

You just said the magic words.

You view Islam - or Islamic culture - as intolerant, and since the veil is a symbol of Islam, you view it as a symbol of intolerance. I guarantee that whenever you are out and about and you see a woman wearing a veil, the first thing you think about is Islam and its "intolerance". You don't see her as a person. You see her as an object for you to bear your frustration upon. It would appear that my original statment is indeed quite applicable : "If I were a Muslim women, I would much rather live in a tolerant, open society who will judge me based on who I am rather than what I wear on my head. In the United States I would be a person. In Europe I would be the brunt of all the hate and ignorance. For that reason, Europe is not free. It is bounded and restricted by hatred. Blinded by its fear and arrogance."

In striving towards your ideal of tolerance, you have become the very thing you are trying to stop.

 

[Stapel]

This is the only statement I have time to speak about.



You just said the magic words.

You view Islam - or Islamic culture - as intolerant, and since the veil is a symbol of Islam, you view it as a symbol of intolerance.

No, no, no and no!
Please stop making up my opinion. It's insulting!
There is a delicate, but important, difference between my opinion and your interpretation of it.

I guarantee that whenever you are out and about and you see a woman wearing a veil, the first thing you think about is Islam and its "intolerance". You don't see her as a person. You see her as an object for you to bear your frustration upon.

Yeah right, you of course know what I think........
I ask you to apologise for this ridiculous insult. You WANT to think that is my opinion. you coulnd't be further from the truth. Why is it that you insist on thinking so bad of me????
I see women with headscarves daily (living in a muslim neighbourhood, that's not too weird, is it?). And I guess many do so voluntarily.
Yet, I can't help thinking many of them are persons, that are victims of oppression. Not per se, but many are.
A cousin of mine married to a woman of muslim origin. I have had a good idea of how stuff really works there. It's not really too pleasant.

It would appear that my original statement is indeed quite applicable : "If I were a Muslim women, I would much rather live in a tolerant, open society who will judge me based on who I am rather than what I wear on my head. In the United States I would be a person. In Europe I would be the brunt of all the hate and ignorance. For that reason, Europe is not free. It is bounded and restricted by hatred. Blinded by its fear and arrogance."

your statement I, or other Europeans, are not regarding women with veils as person is not only untrue. It's very insulting. And so is your remark about hate and ignorance. It's quite unfair. Your original statement is a ridiculous insulting lie. And nothing but that.
I can't help but suspect you are blinded by a belief your side of the Atlantic pond is more tolerant.

In striving towards your ideal of tolerance, you have become the very thing you are trying to stop.

I have given that a thought (long ago). And I must admit it has something to it.
I'm indeed intolerant towards intolerance.

 

[Goonie]

How can you be insulted when you said it yourself?

Should we tolerate a culture that regards homosexuals as the devil's off spring and regards women as lesser people?

All I did was simply put a name to the culture that you cannot tolerate.

 

[Stapel]

How can you be insulted when you said it yourself?



All I did was simply put a name to the culture that you cannot tolerate.

You accused me of not regarding some people as persons. A pretty low act of yours.

 

[Goonie]

Hate blinds people.

I believe that your hate of the veil makes you blind of the people that wear them.

EDIT: Your pejorative one liners aren't accomplishing anything useful. Enough of that thanks.

 

[mrtn]

...Your pejorative one liners aren't accomplishing anything useful. Enough of that thanks.

That's a pretty high horse, you wanna step down from it?

There is a difference between disliking a symbol and disliking the people who wear it.