"You are a bad Belgian and you have signed your own death warrant."

[The Last Conformist]

@Goonie: You complain that Stapel is intolerant of intolerance. We're to conclude that you're tolerant of intolerance?

 

[Stapel]

Hate blinds people.

I believe that your hate of the veil makes you blind of the people that wear them.

I don't have hate. My hate only exists in your imagination.

EDIT: Your pejorative one liners aren't accomplishing anything useful. Enough of that thanks.

I tried (not saying succeeded) to explain my views in a rather nuancated way. I strongly get the impression, you read them in a very very black-and-white way.
You have been drawing utterly wrong conclusions from my posts.

 

[Goonie]

@Goonie: You complain that Stapel is intolerant of intolerance. We're to conclude that you're tolerant of intolerance?

You are to conclude what you will.

I have made no statements about my own tolerance or intolerance.

 

[Goonie]

I don't have hate. My hate only exists in your imagination.

I am to understand that when you say you "hate" the veil, that you don't really hate the veil? It is all a figment of my imagination?

That's a pretty high horse, you wanna step down from it?

I ride mulls not horses.

In all seriousness though, perhaps what I said went over your head?

There is a difference between disliking a symbol and disliking the people who wear it.

Correct, I never said otherwise. I maintain however that ones hate of the veil will blind them of the person wearing that veil.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

These are the facts:

1. Ever increasing numbers of Muslims are pouring into Europe and not assimilating fast enough or completely enough to render them invisible to the native populations.

2. Europeans are becoming increasingly alarmed at the high numbers of Muslims among them.

3. Racist, right wing nationalist parties all over Europe are capitalizing on this, and are getting increasingly larger percentage of the vote in elections.

 

[Stapel]

I am to understand that when you say you "hate" the veil, that you don't really hate the veil? It is all a figment of my imagination?

Where did I say that?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Bozo, 1) and 2) are surely correct. But 3) is not.
First, why do you think right-extremist parties are getting more and more votes? In Germany, they're getting substantially less than 10 years ago, and much more less than in the late 60ies. The Fench FN gets an oscillating numbers of votes, not correlating with the numbers of Muslim immigrants; in fact, the crucial factor for LePen's popularity is how happy the French are with their current Gov...
The Vlaam's Blok rose because of the economical decline in Wallonia; as long as heavy industries there florished, it was the Flemish parts of Belgium which benefitted from the union. Then, situation reversed, plus the ugly child abuse stories in Charleroi.
Italy - their entire party system collapsed after the Mafia scandals during the 80ies. Surprisingly, this didn't hurt the democracy at all. But, the former Mussolini-adoring Neofascists evolved from a right-extremist to a right-wing party, and even the more 'wacko' Lega Norte starts getting a democratic party. Berlusconi is definitely no Fascist, he'd just prefer a Kleptocracy over a Democracy .
Austria - Haider was thrown out of the FPÖ chairmanship some time ago. The really can't stand him there now (but he still plays an important role in Kärnten). The FPÖ was a Libertarian party before him, and now seems to revert back to that.
Netherlands: The Pim Fortuyn party and the current situation is based on the silly refusal of the traditional parties to admit there is a immigrant/islamistic problem at all.
Poland, Hungary: The rise of clerical 'Agro-parties' is clearly to adress to the uncertainity arond the system changes and joining the EU, and by no means realted to muslimic immigrants.
And so on...
Also, aside from France, Nazi parties tend to get the most votes in exactly that regions with the fewest numbers of immigrants .
For example, the German major city with the highest percentage of immigrants is Frankfurt/ Main, where Nazi parties have zero importance. In Saxony OTOH, the NPD reached a really ugly popularity - but immigrants? You'll hardly find any Ausländer there...

 

[Stapel]

These are the facts:

1. Ever increasing numbers of Muslims are pouring into Europe and not assimilating fast enough or completely enough to render them invisible to the native populations.

More or less. They don't need to be invisible of course. There is nothing wrong with diversity. But when diversity comes in negative things, it becomes alarming. The over-representaion of immigrants (even 2nd and 3rd generations) in crime and social security is an issue.

2. Europeans are becoming increasingly alarmed at the high numbers of Muslims among them.

Well, it's not the being muslim in itself. I don't think Islam is too different in itself from Christianity or any other religion. But, we have managed to drop the burdon of conservative christianity here in 70s. When we see new-comers, that have massively not made this step yet, then it becomes alarming. I don't think I should respect or tolerate opinions that are hatful towards gays or emancipation.
Is that so weird?
I'm absolutely positive Muslim culture here in NL will develop towards a more moderate religion/culture.
I don't think the whole issue would have been any different, would these immigrants have come from a conservative, backward Christian area of the world.
Once, here in NL, women were supposed to wear long skirts. I guess that can be compared with wearing headscarves.

3. Racist, right wing nationalist parties all over Europe are capitalizing on this, and are getting increasingly larger percentage of the vote in elections.

Here comes a better analysis .
Other parties were so affraid of being labelled racist, that the issues linked to immigration were simply declared TABOO!
Right now, there is a development of parties that are NOT racist, or not even nationalistic, that are not affraid of breaking taboos.
It annoys me, these parties are so massively flamed.....

 

[mrtn]

...In all seriousness though, perhaps what I said went over your head?...

In all seriousness, probably everyone that disagrees with you are stupid.

@Doc: Very good analysis. You might add Ny Demokrati to that list, a Swedish party that got up to ten percent of the votes 15 years ago, but is eradicated now. And, for anyone that wonders, yes I think that's good riddance.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Doc & Stapel, you both seem to agree with 1 and 2, but differ with me on 3. Ok maybe whats increasing is my awareness of right wing parties in Europe, and I confused that with their increased influence? But anyway, from an American pov, the extent to which the rightwing parties are mainstream in Europe is startling. The closest we've gotten recently to that sort of thing was David Duke back in 80's who was a KKK racist running as a Republican. But it was so repugnant to have a racist running for major office that the entire country, including the Republican party, recoiled away from him and sent him to the dust bin of history. In the U.S. no rightwing nationalist party would ever get on the ballot, or recieve a significant amount of votes, under any circumstances, and would be buried by the media and the political establishment. The right wing militia groups here are objects of ridicule, outside of the deep South. Strange as it may seem, even to me, the U.S., even under big bad Bush, is more 'politically correct' than Europe

 

[Stapel]

In all seriousness, probably everyone that disagrees with you are stupid.

@Doc: Very good analysis. You might add Ny Demokrati to that list, a Swedish party that got up to ten percent of the votes 15 years ago, but is eradicated now. And, for anyone that wonders, yes I think that's good riddance.

The Dutch racist party that got a good deal of votes in the 80s has vanished too.

Though the party was racist, I'm quite positive many voters were just pissed off by the taboo the established parties had created on issues even vaguely linked to immigrants.

 

[Stapel]

The closest we've gotten recently to that sort of thing was David Duke back in 80's who was a KKK racist running as a Republican.

I have the impression people like Jesse Helms and Pat Buchanan are most defenitely more extreme than the recent new European right wing parties.

 

[jonatas]

Strange as it may seem, even to me, the U.S., even under big bad Bush, is more 'politically correct' than Europe

but don't forget, Turkey is on track to becoming an EU member.... and what about the US's problems with Mexican immigration.... isn't the American public against that in general?

edit: this is in reference to your points about some Europeans being alarmed by immigration of Muslims...

 

[mrtn]

@Bozo: Even if, let's say, 10% of the American voters are racist, your political system with the majority getting all the influence from any town/state leads to a two-party country, your hypothetical racist party would never be able to get 10% of the votes. Just like your green party will never (probably) amount to anything much.

 

[IglooDame]

Doc & Stapel, you both seem to agree with 1 and 2, but differ with me on 3. Ok maybe whats increasing is my awareness of right wing parties in Europe, and I confused that with their increased influence? But anyway, from an American pov, the extent to which the rightwing parties are mainstream in Europe is startling. The closest we've gotten recently to that sort of thing was David Duke back in 80's who was a KKK racist running as a Republican. But it was so repugnant to have a racist running for major office that the entire country, including the Republican party, recoiled away from him and sent him to the dust bin of history. In the U.S. no rightwing nationalist party would ever get on the ballot, or recieve a significant amount of votes, under any circumstances, and would be buried by the media and the political establishment. The right wing militia groups here are objects of ridicule, outside of the deep South. Strange as it may seem, even to me, the U.S., even under big bad Bush, is more 'politically correct' than Europe

And a leftwing outright socialist party (or individual seeking the Democratic Party's acceptance) would be similarly shunned - I suspect it has more to do with the two-major-party winner-take-all construction of US politics more than a greater national tendency to shun whackjobs.

Although Jesse Helms and Robert Byrd are probably examples to the contrary.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

And a leftwing outright socialist party (or individual seeking the Democratic Party's acceptance) would be similarly shunned - I suspect it has more to do with the two-major-party winner-take-all construction of US politics more than a greater national tendency to shun whackjobs.

Although Jesse Helms and Robert Byrd are probably examples to the contrary.

Yes the two party system is what protects us from fringe extremist groups from either side. Jesse Helms and Robert Byrd are literally dinosaurs though and to be fair to Byrd, he renounced the racism of his youth decades ago, and also, Helms retired. Stapel mentioned Buchanon. Nobody pays much attention to him, at all. He's generally percieved to be a bit of a whacko. He cant even get large numbers of Republicans to vote for him.

@jonatas: the Mexican immigration to the U.S. is a perfect analogy to whats happening in Europe with Muslims. Some of the people along the border are very upset with it, and even shoot at Mexicans they catch sneaking around on their land, but by and large, American society is much more welcoming and accepting of immigrants from Latin America than Europeans are of Muslim North Africans and Arabs. So welcoming and accepting that we're well on the way to becoming a Latin American country ourselves

The difference between the U.S. and Europe is that European identity has to do very much with ethnicity, but in America, that was never the case, as we've always been a country made up of immigrants from all over the world.

 

[IglooDame]

Yes the two party system is what protects us from fringe extremist groups from either side. Jesse Helms and Robert Byrd are literally dinosaurs though and to be fair to Byrd, he renounced the racism of his youth decades ago, and also, Helms retired. Stapel mentioned Buchanon. Nobody pays much attention to him, at all. He's generally percieved to be a bit of a whacko. He cant even get large numbers of Republicans to vote for him.

@jonatas: the Mexican immigration to the U.S. is a perfect analogy to whats happening in Europe with Muslims. Some of the people along the border are very upset with it, and even shoot at Mexicans they catch sneaking around on their land, but by and large, American society is much more welcoming and accepting of immigrants from Latin America than Europeans are of Muslim North Africans and Arabs. So welcoming and accepting that we're well on the way to becoming a Latin American country ourselves

The difference between the U.S. and Europe is that European identity has to do very much with ethnicity, but in America, that was never the case, as we've always been a country made up of immigrants from all over the world.

Perhaps Patrick Buchanan is a reasonable equivalence of the various European nationalist parties - he can't get large numbers of Republicans because he can't win a general election, but I suspect that were he to get media coverage similar to what the "big two" always get, he'd have 5-10% of the public ready to vote for him in the absence of the strategic voting realities.

 

[jonatas]

@jonatas: the Mexican immigration to the U.S. is a perfect analogy to whats happening in Europe with Muslims. Some of the people along the border are very upset with it, and even shoot at Mexicans they catch sneaking around on their land, but by and large, American society is much more welcoming and accepting of immigrants from Latin America than Europeans are of Muslim North Africans and Arabs. So welcoming and accepting that we're well on the way to becoming a Latin American country ourselves

actually, i believe the US should adopt Spanish as a second official language, just like Canada has 2 but seriously, i was under the impression that the American public is not so favourable towards the Mexicans... and division according to ethnicity has existed in the US... i mean, if you compare it to a country like Brazil, there was never a comparable interracial mixing....

but i dislike comparing of countries like this.... my point is perhaps both Americans and Europeans share some human traits in common, in spite of the cultural differences.... xenophobia, wherever it occurs, is bad.... but Europe is not a backward society, even though we have our right wing extremists, and i think the whole concept of the EU is to rise above our history and create a new and better society, a new kind of society, which indeed is diverse and unifying.... i mean Europe is diverse by definition, though its diversity is different from the US.... of course, i defend french secularism as well and its ideals, which if properly understood, are not xenophobic but instead combat religious extremism

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Yes the two party system is what protects us from fringe extremist groups from either side.

I wouldn't call the German or French Green parties 'fringe extremists'. Or the Libertarian parties throughout most of Europe.
If a dedicated political program only appeals to about 10% of voters, it doesn't necessarily indicate extremism. Sometimes it just means that only those who are interested in that focus (environment, economy) will vote for them.
The US (and UK) system prevents extremist parties to make it into the parliaments.
But it also prevents IMHO necessary and benefitial new/specialized parties to gain importance.
The shift towards more 'Green' politics in Europe isn't mostly caused by the Green Parties actually ruling, but the fact the estabished parties saw the necessity to adress those problems - otherwise the Greens would get even more votes.

Btw, you're correct in assuming the awareness for the Nazi parties is rising for good reasons. In Germany, we didn't really fear those backwards 3rd Reich admirers; this problem was solved by itself for biologocal reasons. But the rise of smarter Neonazi parties (and the current NPD head is a prime example for this) is a reason to be concerned.

 

[jonatas]

The difference between the U.S. and Europe is that European identity has to do very much with ethnicity, but in America, that was never the case, as we've always been a country made up of immigrants from all over the world.

again, i don't know how accurate this is.... my country, Portugal, has always had strong ties with its old African countries, Morocco, South America and even Asia.... we went through our soft fascism in the 20th Century, but we have a very diverse global history.... Lisbon was always a world center.... and we used to be muslim