You aren't paranoid when the map generator really is out to get you...

Elandal

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I'm usually playing at Prince level, with some idea about what kind of a game I want to play, some theme, some variant. Every now and then I decide to step it up a bit, and play a "make use of what you're given" game at Monarch (not real monarch thou, I've modified it by taking out the AI starting worker so that I don't need to go into full micromanagement mode - that's just too tedious and not enough fun for me). Continents, large map, epic speed - my standard settings.

I've had my share of less than stellar starts, but for as long as there's food I can just adapt the capitol to the rest of the tiles in the fat cross. However, now I'm facing one of those starts that really makes me want to reroll.. But then again, I had decided to play the hand I'm dealt, so I guess I'll see this one out. At least for a while.
I got Augustus Caesar, which is fine. Creative is nice, Organized is nice. My only fear is that Praetorians will get the better out of me, and everything starts looking like a target when I get them online :)

But onto the start. I seem to have exactly one food-positive tile, the plains cow. When pastured - I start with Fishing and Mining so it's not going to pasture itself anyday soon. Six grasslands (three forested). One-tile lake. The rest is plains or hills - or plains hills. And the hill my settler is standing on is not plains hill, no. THAT hill is a grassland hill, thus not providing the extra hammer..

I haven't moved the warrior yet, but from what I see on the direction at the edge of the fog, there won't be much of interest. SW however might be interesting - maybe that's ocean? If I move the settler there (2 tiles SW, that takes the turn then) I can see better - but that's a turn spent not researching, growing, nor producing. I rarely move from the starting spot, hoping the map generator has given me a good big fat cross to settle into. And as I have exactly one resource here, I'm quite sure I have either horses, copper, or iron in the fat cross. None of the three would be just too cruel, and I don't remember ever having only one resource in the starting location.

Also note that should I move the settler 2 SW to the coast by the river, I will get at least two tundra tiles in the fat cross. Not exactly the tiles I want, but I doubt it could be much worse than my starting location..

So with all this considered, any advice? Settle in place? Move to coast and hope for the best? If settle in place, what can I expect of this capitol?
Not exactly the cottage heaven, and with lack of food I don't think I can run specialists - probably not even whip it (farming the grasses would give me a few more F+1 tiles, but the growth back from the whip would be too slow compared to stagnating working a plains hill mine for example).
Production? Can do, although a bit painful. 2x F+1 -> 1 plains hill, so working eg. plains cow, farmed grass, and two plains hills would stagnate me at size 4 with about a dozen hpt - quite good for the size though. Could stagnate at size 6 if I find happiness (probably furs and/or silver up north) to get there, working yet another farmed grass to cover for the grassland hill mine, but the hammers per citizen is going down fast - those two extra tiles would yield just three extra hammers here.
 

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A slight difference in our starts: you have loads of food. Most of it is swimming though, but three crabs + plains sheep = loads of food. You might have trouble trying to decide where on the ice are you going to settle your second city though :)
While I would *sigh* on that kind of icy start as well, I find low food start even harder.
 
The other thing is that you're almost guaranteed some sort of later-appearing resource. Horses, Copper, Iron. Something like that.

Still, really hard start. I'd probably move towards the river and see what there is down there that would support a decent city.
 
I'd suggest moving one south and founding your city on the river. It can't hurt anything, as far as I can tell, and you could get lucky and get a corn tile along the river down there. The map generator seems to take perverse delight is leaving those good resources one tile outside of the start positions fat cross on Monarchy.

If there's nothing down there, you can bite the bullet, accept that it won't be great until Biology, and in the meantime play on - or hit "Regenerate Map" and try again.

And keep us updated, if you decide to explore a bit more, or play the game!
 
!?!?

How can you call those bad starts?? In both maps there is fresh water from the river or lake. You can't call it bad because you don't get 3 bonus food sources!!! Am I right or what? :confused:

Okay, the Icy place is bad when the city expands later but I don't see anything wrong with the first one.
 
That is not a bad start. It is not the best ever, but it is not even close to being terrible.
 
And so it was proven: it wasn't a stellar start, but it wasn't a losing one either. I'm used to having a reasonable food source in the capitol, and this kind of a low-food start was very hard for me. But, after thinking hard, I decided to settle on place.

Didn't take screenies nor intermediate saves, but maybe a few words will suffice.

Considering that city growth would be very slow, I decided against all my usual strategies, and went for settler first. I've done that exactly once before, and was praying it'd pay off this time. With that in mind, I had to find a city location using my starting warrior. Also, research went for BW as Rome starts with Mining.

Warrior started moving east, circling southwards. I got quite lucky, popping a scout from the first hut I encountered (on third turn even). Scout went for a bit larger circle. Popped Wheel and Pottery in the next few turns, after which the scout had a bearsome encounter, with pretty much expected results.. But two techs - that's a lot.

As the warrior reached the shore south of Rome, I concluded that not moving was just fine. It'd taken at least two turns (depending on how I had moved the settler) to find a food source. Excepting one: just 2N3E of Rome was a plains hill sheep. Missed that when I started exploring with my warrior as I had moved more southwards.

Moving a bit south on the shores I found clam, fish, pig, and floodplains. Decided that somewhere down there would be my second city. But to my surprise, Persepolis was also in that direction. Seeing that I can't really split the resources between two cities (trying to do so would just cause one to be engulfed by Persian culture), decided to grab all that with one city (got three floodplains, one grassland, a few plains, one plains hill, and above mentioned food resources).

It was a bit farther from Rome than I would've liked, but to the hell with it: Augustus is verily creative, so there wouldn't be a gap that would have to be fogbusted.

Rome built a warrior after the settler. And Asoka approached from northeast. The second warrior took up the task of exploring the northern tundra and ice, then eastwards looking for India. Fur was found, and there would be fish to go with it. No silver though. India was found in the eastern shores, with Delhi around the same latitude as Rome (but with nice grass, sheep, crab).

Copper also existed. But as I had determined to expand towards Cyrus, I didn't go for the copper site. Not that the copper site would make for a great city early on either - it would have been low on food as well. Also, this was packed tighter than what I usually see.

My second exploring warrior eventually was eaten by a lion, but first one pretty much mapped the continent, being disbanded on the south shores. Ottomans ruled all the land south of the jungles. So four civs total on this continent - this was the smaller of the two then.

In the meantime techs were reserached, but no wonders built. Simply couldn't find hammers for that. Oh yes, horses in Rome's fat cross. That's good: Chariots are the best BarbWatch units anyway, and with Sentry promotion they can fogbust better than anything. Built some half a dozen, lost some, but eventually the northern tundra and ice was kept clean - Asoka handled the east, I handled the west. Twice I had minor crisis situations, but my archers mopped up. Yes - I had gone archery when I didn't have copper in Rome's fat cross, as I don't like taking too many chances.

Cyrus had founded Hinduism, and that religion pretty much took over the continent (Asoka later got Christianity and switched over). By the time I've played to, those two are still the only religions on the continent. A bit weird - I would've expect Asoka to be Buddhist or Hindu, not Cyrus.. Especially as Buddhism went a bit late (and Hinduism in BC 2600 or so).

I don't remember the exact tech path I took, but IW was earlier than I normally do (this is Rome, IW is priority), religious paths I didn't even look into. In any case, Iron was found - in the northern ice.. Yes, other iron was around on the continent, but the ice iron was the only one I could reach. I had waited on my third city just for the purpose, and so sent a settler there, with worker going to connect the iron. The city would be working a whale and coastal tiles, whipping something every now and then as it grows. It was again farther from Rome than I had hoped for, but whatever - Iron is needed, and it would grab fur as well, and whale when optics would come.

I was surprised that I wasn't losing big time in tech. Whatever I would get, I traded to keep in the game. Also got a third of currency just by asking for it - it was so nice of my happy hindu brothers :) I had started research on currency when it was monopolized by Mehmed, but it spread like wildfire before I was done, being known by all three. Overall I got worse trades than I had hoped for, but if that's all I can get, then I have no choice but to take what I still can get.

In any case, eventually I had iron, and started building praetorians. I had been hemmed by Asoka and Cyrus, with all my expansion potential being ice and tundra. Although Asoka got most of the tundra too, so it was mostly ice :sad:

Now, I'm not a warrior. I'm a builder. I play it way too safe when going to war - I find it hard to declare when I have one praetorian and will get the next in three turns.. So I was in deep trouble here: the tech rate was slowly climbing, and I couldn't keep up. It had taken me too much time to get iron online and praetorian builds started. Not that Antium could build much, except with the whip.. So it was up to Rome to get me an army, and yes - those hills came handy there. And the plains horse.

So... In all my slowness, I ended up getting even construction before going to war, and had three cats with me. Targets were pretty clear: two minor cities on my eastern border, Persepolis itself, and Susa. And the praetorians proved themselves, although I also did get lucky here: lost none until finally Susa claimed three of them (Susa was on a hill, and was the first city that had a longbow defending it). As I had reached my goal in the war (and Cyrus had finally gotten his units from the eastern part of his empire to the battlefield), I sued for peace, getting half of feudalism and a bit of pocket change here. But the real prices were the cities.
Persepolis:
- Hindu holy city (but no shrine - almost whole continent is hindu and there is no shrine?)
- The Great Wall
- The Great Library
- The Great Lighthouse
- The Colossus
Susa had Hanging Gardens even.

So, it's 1214 AD, and while I'm certain the other continent is way more advanced than this one (they got CoL first, Philo first), I now have land, population, and the window for praetorians isn't closed yet - just need cats to go with them when I continue. I'm not much behind Asoka or Mehmed anymore, and Cyrus has been reduced to non-issue: he's got three more cities that I want, one that is simply junk, and one that I won't be able to keep (Mehmed will culturally engulf it the second I take it.

So, I need to replenish my army, fix up a prophet somehow (although with the wonders Perspolis has, I'm probably going to have scientists / merchants / engineers, not prophets) for the shrine, complete the war with Cyrus, then look into the situation again and decide how to proceed after that. I can forget about liberalism race and many other things I would normally go for, but that wasn't what I got this time. This time I got the smaller continent, too few beakers, slow tech rate on the continent, and praetorians.
 
Oh trust me, I know.

:lol:

I would seriously just use the regenerate map right there. My god, one of my last games I played, horrible. I was stuck on this stupid 'island'. It really wasn't an island but had one way out, a strip of land. Needless to say... someone had occupied it. I sent a settler there first thing, but didn't want it to go out too far. It had copper and stuff... but just horrible. Then Kulbai Khan decided to settle there. I declared war. Got the 2 cities... Then it went downhill from there. My 'friend' discovered Christianity *my god...* and I had no way out. He declared war on me and I thought what a horrible start. I could have done good, I know. But it would have taken such a long... long... time to get everything settled out.
 
Masri, I don't expect to have several food bonuses. And in general, plains cow is nice it's FP6 tile, which is very good. But overall, working F3 tiles to feed citizens working hammer tiles is quite inefficient - I need two people to feed one that is bringing home four hammers. 1.3 hammers per citizen - it's really not too good.

Also, early growth is seriously stunted by not having a single high-food tile. Having a single F+1 unimproved (F+2 to F+4 improved) is very different. Eg. for whipping, food surplus of 3 just won't cut it (stagnating with 4 hammers more is more efficient). And specialists are simply out.

I'm guessing the map looks very different for higher level players. I hate running SE (or FE), as that means I'm going to spend my playtime microing stuff. It's then a game of efficient micromanagement, not a game of diplomacy, empire building, strategy. Yes of course all those are done too, but too much microing and I'll probably quit the game as not fun.

I thought about the situation I'm in now a bit more, and I'm not sure how much optimism I should retain.. I'm dead last in tech, way behind what I'm used to being on this date. When the civs on the other continent find me (I've still got ways to optics - I won't be the one finding new worlds) I'll see how much behind I am. I'm probably relying a lot on the fact that in general, when I get the land and peace settles again, my teching rate will take a substantial jump - given time to develop my new land I should be able to get to outtech the AIs.
 
I definitely wouldn't settle in place. 1S might get you something useful. But I'd probably move S-SE planning to settle in one of the adjacent spaces on turn 2. What speed is this?

P.S. With Augustus Caesar at monarch, if you have iron nearby it hardly matters what your capital does. You can figure that you'll add a couple of AI capitals soon enough, and those may be better.
 
I continued the game, and found that my early optimism (resulting from the first war against Cyrus) was indeed unfounded. As I quickly replenished my army, decided on the goal for second war (three cities, maybe if I do well raze the two I'm not going to keep), I also finally got to bulb Philo for trading. It was good since while the other continent had got it long ago, on this continent I still had monopoly. Cyrus was in the trading loop, being still fine with me - hey, what's a war between buddies anyway? So I got to almost tech parity now - I was even with Cyrus, Mehmed had one on me, Asoka two.

So continuing the war, a bit sooner than I would usually do but I had to get onto it fast now while Cyrus still was a bit down. My luck was really down this time, and casualties were heavy. Well, I was facing longbows so it was to be expected, but I got low on cats and for some reason Cyrus' HAs kept eating my spears. Really. I needed two spears per HA.

During the war, Ragnar, Saladin and Mansa came and greeted me. All my hopes went down the drain now - Mansa was tech leader in all accounts - he had everything I could possibly research. Saladin was the same, but I presume Mansa had something on him too. Ragnar was, by the standards of the other continent, a non-issue. Meaning: Only had Engineering on me (I had nothing on him)..
Out of the blue, Asoka declared on me. Well yes, we had some religious issues. But we had been good trading buddies for the time, and I hadn't expected this. As my army had whittled to fairly small in the Persian campaign, this was the final nail in the coffin. I had counted that *IF* I could take out Cyrus fast and continue onto Asoka immediatelly, I might get the momentum needed to race the techtree - although it's damn hard when you're facing Mansa with twice the land..

So, that was it for me. Monarch is a level where I can play when I concentrate on the game, but there's still a lot to learn until I can do that without needing a good start. That's the reason I've modded the level by removing the worker the AI would get in the start - I would prefer a level between Prince and Monarch so I've made myself one. I think I'll try another game with the same objectives, as this did present me with some hope about some day maybe moving to the real Monarch level. That does, afterall, seem to be pretty "standard" here, but still one where people expect to be able to play without all-war game.

Janus: I have the save from the start left, but that's all. I'll attach that if you want to look at it.

DaviddesJ: it's large map, epic speed. On large map, the civ spacing rarely gives me close neighbours, so I wouldn't really count on sacking "an AI capitol or two" anytime soon. In this game Cyrus was a lot closer than my nearest neighbour in most of the games I play. And of course on standard map size the neighbours are usually close enough for the purpose. Due to playing large maps, I rarely use early UUs - the nearest neighbours just aren't there. Praetorian is nice, but most of the time I find the first war to be near the end of praet's lifespan, and favour Berserkers, Samurais, Cho-Ko-Nus and Hwachas more due to their useful lifespan being a bit later (maceman, xbow, and cat -based UUs all will stay in the game until gunpowder era).
 
That start is a bit of a doosey but not unbearably bad. The trick is to do this little thing called "Getting the hell out of there ASAP", go settler first and find an uber site for your second city. That's the theory anyway.

edit:

Spoiler :

Hah! I started playing without first reading any description of the game, noted the tundra to the north and decided to go treking south so my capital will be more central. Towards these ends I move the warrior SE and reveal a plains hill on the river which will still have the cow in radius, I move the settler to that plains hill, getting both Cows and Grassland Corn in radius - plain hill on river with GL corn and Cows - an excellent site.

I then reloaded and settled on the plains flat river instead to actually play with a BAD start.
 
Happy New Year. It's interesting to see different approaches to this start. Here's my save from 1547. I'd appreciate advice if anyone feels like giving some.

Spoiler :
I settled in place and went something like Warrior/Worker/Warrior/Settler. Cyrus beat me to the flood plains and so they're split between Pasargadae and Antium, which is just as well. I had a big Praet war against Cyrus, a buildup phase with Forums and Courthouses, a big Praet/Cat/Mace war against Asoka, and then a buildup phase with Universities etc.

I just switched from OR to Theocracy so that Rome can build some CRIII Maces and upgrade them to Grenadiers with money left over from a trade mission. That money is how I got the five CRIII Grenadiers I have now. Mehmed just started upgrading to Riflemen last turn. I think I should trade away Chemistry for Astronomy and whatever else I can get. That should open up some great trade route commerce and allow me to build Frigates. The Astronomy trade would require all my money, so no more CRIII Grenadiers and no Caravel-to-Frigate upgrades, but it's probably worth it. Mehmed having Grenadiers in addition to Riflemen shouldn't be a big deal. I'm not crazy about him having Frigates, but he already has Galleons.

I'm not sure what cities to attack, with what unit mix, or when. Right now I think I have a short window of opportunity to attack something with slightly superior units. If I attacked right now I could probably clear out my east coast and hold my south, but the economic benefit to me and the economic harm to Mehmed would both be unimpressive. Or I could probably raze Edirne, but I'd have to spread my army out for defense.

I'm also concerned that Mehmed may have a big stack of Knights somewhere I can't see. I'm not sure if I should spread Confucianism to the rest of his cities (and/or mine) before attacking. (It will take a while to get my shrine. After Oxford I should finally get around to building a temple in Pasagardae and running a priest there, so that maybe I'll get a prophet eventually.)

I'm inclined to think that the best choice is to attack either the east coast (probably) or Edirne (maybe) as soon as I can get a few defensive Grenadiers stationed in my southern cities (in fact, maybe I should just rapidly whip some Grenadiers over the next four turns). That would allow me to get some value from suiciding my remaining catapults and melee units before they become obsolete.

Hatshepsut, well, who knows. Might be too late to do anything about that. I'd have to start by going into Free Religion, and then I'd have to score some bribe techs. But Theocracy combined with Confucianism for spying seems more valuable right now.
 
The first pic is fine. Good odds that copper/iron/horses will end up in bfc. Surrounding area looks fine.

The second pic is very very rough. How can you call that good? The capital is ok (capitals always are), but where are you going to build your 2nd/3rd cities, lol?!?! That one is similar to one I had recently, except it was desert not ice. I was like: "Wth is this? I'm restarting!"

My rule is I always reload if: 1) I get a brutal surrounding area like pic 2 and 2) The starting location the rmg gives me is 1 tile away from the coast. I hate situation 2 because if I move toward the coast so as not to have wasted coastal tiles there usually won't be seafood meaning a lot of crap capital tiles PLUS i'll usually lose out on a farmable/herdable that i would've had if i settled in place, but if i move inland i'll usually pick up some desert/tundra squares or else have to lose a precious early turn or two trying to get the best place. sigh, it really sucks :( i'm more of a settle-in-place-or-one-step-away kinda guy.
 
Still lots to learn for me. I couldn't get a position out of the start I had here, but my current game is going well.

Played a few starts after the Augustus one, of which one was with Qin, with stone in capitol. A bit harsh on the food again (but something I could work with), but this time I managed to settle two other cities - both with good production, with gold even. Unfortunatelly managed to go wondernut with industrious and stone, but as I got half a dozen big shiny thingies in my capitol, was leading in GNP, tech, and pretty much everything when I finally found a good time for war, I just quit the game. Not really fun - I was dominating too much there :(

Now I'm playing Napoleon. This time I selected the leader manually as I was getting tired of rerolling (no, I'm not playing Julius now as I just played Augustus - Rome will have to wait until I've played something else in between) and was looking for a leader that wasn't industrious (that means I'm not going wondernut), and a civ that didn't start with mysticism (early religion may or may not work out, but I wasn't in the mood to try it now). Charismatic / Organized means that I'm set with extra early happiness, highly promoted army later on, and will have easier time financing a growing empire (should I last to that point). Not really a fan of Salon nor Musketeer, but UU and UB aren't that critical so whatever. Overall, traits that should direct me towards a bit of war, a bit of building, and even if I won't get early happiness resources I can manage just fine - should be fairly balanced.
I also made one change to my settings: two extra civs. Large map, 11 civs - this should make it feel a bit more like normal map size, with neighbours nearby.

Had to reroll the start once (no, I don't want that stone in capitol - I'm trying to avoid anything that points towards wonders), but second start looked OK. Bad thing: one tile off the coast. Good thing: rice. Took my chances and moved to a plains hill between lake and coast, and saw fish that would be within my fat cross, so congratulated myself for moving to the hill and settled there. Paris eventually got great library (there went the last hammers it had - chopped the remaining forests for that one), and I did build stonehenge as my second city was strong on production. Oh yes - built Great Lighthouse later as nobody else seemed interested, and it was quick build at the time.

Got two warriors and a scout (who didn't last very long) from huts, and a map showing me how blue the ocean is. Met Shaka, Cathy, Hannibal, and Asoka. Smaller continent again... But things are looking quite nice. Played with Shaka a bit (he was easier to bribe to war with Cathy than the other way, and those two were the biggest ones around), later capitulated Cathy (who's now pleased with me), got circumnavigation bonus, won liberalism race (and yes - it was a race. When I got it, there were four civs with edu and philo), and am now just about to start a war with Shaka. Shaka vassalled Asoka (who has one city left) and is somewhat backwards but large and militarily quite strong. But I've got grens, he doesn't - I expect the war to be quite favourable for me. After that, I may need to kill Asoka (one city left, don't want that city, and it won't make for a good vassall), will have to consider Hannibal, but probably will rather consolidate and aim for the space.

Interesting factoids about the game:
- I got Philo, with Taoism being the only religion on this continent. Whee :)
- The other continent has:
-- Confucian Frederick (major power)
-- Judaist Saladin (in the game) - also founded Buddhism
-- Buddhist (but not founder) Alex (in the game)
-- Hindu (not founder) Mao (minor civ)
-- Hindu Julius (minor civ)
-- Christian Ramesses (Alex was picking on the poor guy, so he asked and received protection from Frederick)
- Islam founded by Mao, maybe he'll switch to that some day

As I'm thinking about how to continue the game, there are a few simple issues:
- I've already decided that Shaka has to be kicked a few times, but I don't have anything special against him so I will take capitulation.
- Asoka is a non-issue, maybe I'll set Cathy to finish off the poor sod
- I'm not sure if I can share the continent with Hannibal all the way to the end. Would definitelly feel safe if I kicked him off the map (or took him under my wings by force).
- Unless there are specific reasons to go for intercontinental invasion, I'd rather just go to space. Late game wars are tough on my computer and on my own nerves - they take a lot of management to handle, which means I might quit the game just because I don't find moving stacks of tanks that much fun.
- Frederick will be a contender for space. However, with all the religious problems the other continent has, he just might (whether by suggestions and bribes, or by natural dislikes) spend a lot of time warring.
- Alex is doing just fine - except that nobody likes him. Sounds quite normal, but he's easily strong enough that he should be able to slow down Frederick a lot. Due to Ramesses, the two are fighting already.

Overall, this game feels fun, not too hard but not too easy either, enough diplomatic games to play, some wars, some building. Pretty much the kind of game I usually am looking for :) Had I been playing this on Prince, the liberalims race wouldn't have been a race, and overall I would again be way too strong and thus the game wouldn't be fun enough.
 
I've just had a game where I spawn right next to Montezuma and Mehmed II. I'll upload a pic of it in my next post.
 
Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


Lovely start wouldn't you agree.

(Had to double post to be able to upload the image, I apologise for this :p)
 
I didn't know that kind of sandwitch start was even possible..
With apparently both Monty and Mehmed having capitols on hills, either you find copper on the hill the warrior is standing, take out both of them, or reroll :)
 
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