"Your maps have proven that the world is round"

[r_rolo1]

The funny thing about the "greeks" "proof" of the sphericity of Earth, is that from the same data Eratosthenes calculated a +/- 46600 km perimeter Earth ( assuming a far away and/or flat sun ) and Anaxagoras calculated a Sun with at least a third of the size of Peloponnese ( probably bigger ) (assuming a flat land) ( by the way, he was forced to leave Athens because he was acused of tranforming Helios(one god of sun) in a hot rock, a crime punishable with death ( like Socrates discovered some years in the future...)).
Same data, diferent theoretical results.... Remember me, why are we talking about the "Greeks proof" of Earth sphericity when we should be talking about Eratosthenes calculus of the Earths perimeter assuming that the diferent shade angles were caused by a spherical Earth?

 

[wagboy]

This is a bit of nonsense. The roundness of the earth was never proven by maps, in fact the Greeks proved it mathematically long before the age of exploration.

While the geocentric worldview with a clover-shaped earth with Jerusalem in the middle was the official stance of the church during the middle ages, educated people and scholars knew full well that the world was round. Columbus himself had no doubts about it, even though he misestimated the circumference rather horribly - he believed that the western way to india would be rather short.

In short, while the "You are the first to circumnavigate the earth" message was historical and appropriate, the new one is not. The change seems a bit silly to me.

Just saying.

Actually in 200 BC egyptian philosopher Aristostinies calculated the circumference of world. This was commonly accepted as true from that point on, especially since the judeo/christian bible talks about the world being a circle.

 

[Spearthrower]

The most famous story is that of Eratosthenes who, while travelling in Egypt noticed that he couldnt see his shadow at midday while he could see his shadow at midday when in Athens.....

From this he not only "discovered" (except it was a) both known to other Greeks and b) had been known to previous civilisations) that the world was round, he also managed to calculate it's circumference..... and actually, he was only about 2% out, so one could say that was something more than luck!

 

[Spearthrower]

Wackyduck, while I can always appreciate a relativist argument.... your position is becoming untenable... you are now trying to argue that because the Greeks didn't actually have physical evidence and that the underlying proposition *could* have meant the earth was cylindrical, that this somehow undermines the veracity of the (re)discovery.

No matter whether they could have drawn erroneous suppositions from the data, they didn't.... whether the test was flawed or not, they still "hit the jackpot" and were right.

You can use modern scientific techniques anachronistacally to judge their performance and strength of conjecture if you really want to, but it's about as effective as using modern shopping trends to shed light onto primordial amoebic mating rituals!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

While I'm no bible scholar, I believe most statements in the bible support a flat Earth, and "circles" means a 2-D circle, that or it may even be symbolic language. It's filled with symbolism.

Perfect sphere, approximate sphere... doesn't matter to me. It's the Greek's idea that it was approximately spherical and gave a good approximation of its circumference given what they had that's impressive. Of course they realise it wasn't a perfect sphere: its a Greek idea that everyone knows what "circle" means even though no-body has ever seen a perfect circle. They had an idea of what a sphere was, decided that "sphere" was the best human word available back then to describe the shape, and they were closer to the right idea than a flat world where you could fall off its edges.

Map... I call the globe in my bedroom a map, how's that!!!

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

Even circumnavigation doesn't prove the world was round. It could have been a cylinder. It wasn't proven until we put a man in space and he turned around to look.

Well, if you believe we put a man on the moon.....then I have a bridge I would like to sell you. haha. that's a whole other ball game eh?

Sorry if this is off-topic, but would you believe that some people in our modern society still believe the Earth is flat?

Check out the Flat Earth Society.

Wow. As a physics teacher all I can say is wow. What a load of crap. Pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo. It is truly said that some people in this world do not have a friggin' clue. I won't go into the details of how ******** they are, but I will definitely show this to my grade 11 and 12 classes and have them tell me why these people suck.


Yeah, the whole Eratosthenes thing I have taught in the past to grade 8 (stupid SABIS curriculum, but I digress). There are plenty of sources of error, but for what they had back then, it's pretty impressive. Just because Aristotle had some ideas about the "universe" and the church clung to them, because they revered them. They loved the idea of circles because they were "perfect" and concentric circles around the earth was their stubborn way. It was in the Middle East that all the knowledge, algebra, science and whatnot was taking place while "the church" was getting ready to set back common sense and reasoning for a few centuries. Meh, I am too tired to rant and ramble.

 

[Methos]

@WilliamofOrange: I also recall seeing a site that still believed the Earth was the center of the universe. They even had an explanation of how the planets and sun revolved around the Earth. I'll have to try and find those two sites again.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Personally, I would also like to get a reward for proving that the earth is not round, when a flat civ map is used, or for proving it to be donut-shaped when both x and y wrapping is used (Is that still possible in Civ IV? it was in Civ III)

 

[PieceOfMind]

I have to say I did think twice when I saw the message "Your maps have proven that the world is round."

It seems the argument that arose in this thread was mostly two people wanting to prove themselves. Personally, I stick to the school of thought that requires proof be something of absolute certainty. Using axioms directly and proving a result is pretty much the only way one can really prove something. One who's even more pedantic might decide to start dismantling the very binary logic we use and make proofs even more esoteric.
In any case, the "proofs" that exist in the physical sciences and the "proofs" in mathematics and philosophy are different concepts. Despite what many say, the concept of proof is still useful in physics for example, but you must make certain assumptions which are usually reasonable to make. For example, assuming that conservation of momentum and energy are laws (universally) is common. These are closer to definitions than observations, and without these it is hard to get very far at all in physics. In philosphy, a popular one is Descarte's "Cogito ergo sum", or "Je pense, donc je suis". He assumes thinking is something which only something which exists can do (as a premise), and hence deduces he must exist. This is not really proof in my books because it is somewhat circular, but for its glaring simplicity it is what we can usually call a philosophical proof.

For all intents and purposes it was known in antiquity that the Earth was "round", so I agree it is odd to see that message in civ. Perhaps a more appropriate one would be "your maps have verified (or confirmed) that the Earth is round". But in the end, I just ask myself, "Who cares?"

 

[PieceOfMind]

Wow. As a physics teacher all I can say is wow. What a load of crap. Pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo. It is truly said that some people in this world do not have a friggin' clue. I won't go into the details of how ******** they are, but I will definitely show this to my grade 11 and 12 classes and have them tell me why these people suck.

Seriously, something I find even scarier is Mark McCutcheon's The Final Theory. I felt nothing but horror when reading his first chapter!

 

[Spearthrower]

A brief glance at that site Methos posted the link to leads me to believe that it is a tongue in cheek site...... the theories are meant to be silly, read more of the small print to see the obvious ironic humour!

 

[Kranden]

I beg to differ the world is flat.

This website says so! http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

/bangs his head against the wall.
P.S. I think this site is serious.

 

[frob2900]

Flat-Earthers? I have a really hard time thinking you could fill one single auditorium if you collected all the flat-earthers in the world. I mean, come on, what with all the pictures of earth from space? Satellites?

How can they watch satellite TV in good conscience if they think the earth is flat?

You can even see the curvature of the earth for yourself for the price of one high-altitude balloon ride or commercial airline ticket!

 

[Spearthrower]

Flat-Earthers? I have a really hard time thinking you could fill one single auditorium if you collected all the flat-earthers in the world.

I bet none of the attendees would have a window seat on the plane as they wouldnt want to see the world curve away from them!

P.S. I think this site is serious.

No really.... it isn't.... a reminder to always read the small print.... look at the bottom of the site's front page.

The Flat Earth Society is not in any way responsible for the failure of the French to repel the Germans at the Maginot Line during WWII. Nor is the Flat Earth Society responsible for the recent yeti sightings outside the Vatican, or for the unfortunate enslavement of the Nabisco Inc. factory employees by a rogue hamster insurrectionist group. Furthermore, we are not responsible for the loss of one or more of the following, which may possibly occur as the result of exposing one's self to the dogmatic and dangerously subversive statements made within: life, limb, vision, Francois Mitterand, hearing, taste, smell, touch, thumb, Aunt Mildred, citizenship, spleen, bedrock, cloves, I Love Lucy reruns, toaster, pine derby racer, toy duck, antelope, horseradish, prosthetic ankle, double-cheeseburger, tin foil, limestone, watermelon-scented air freshner, sanity, paprika, German to Pig Latin dictionary, dish towel, pet Chihuahua, pogo stick, Golf Digest subscription, floor tile, upper torso or halibut.

 

[Kranden]

hmm I never noticed that before but man they sure spent a lot of time spewing crap. Just look at this page http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

 

[Spearthrower]

It's just a spoof site.... there are plenty of them and many done much better.... my favourite is:

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

however, there are some sites that should be spoofs and read as such, but who are all too serious and consider themselves valuable sources of true information (laughable as it is)

for example.... http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page

 

[Kranden]

he he that encyclopedia is funny.

The second is quite scary.

Sometimes I'm proud to be an American, but when I think about the fact that about 50% of the US population does not believe in evolution I want to cry a little. Then I remember Americans don't cry and I should be off bashing gay people or whatever the right wing does. /rolls eyes

 

[Shaded]

I personally believe Earth is neither flat nor spherical, it is shaped similar to Jennifer Lopez's butt. And i live on earth. Really.

 

[Kranden]

now thats a faith I can sink my teeth into! Got any pamphlets?

By the Way I LOVE this Quote about George Bush On conservapedia

Economic issues

Though the liberal media continues to disparage Bush's handling of the economy, they often neglect to report the many aspects of the economy that Bush has improved. For example, during his term Exxon Mobil has posted the largest profit of any company in a single year, and executive salaries have greatly increased as well.[5] This is due to changes in the stock market that lead to a record high in 2006. Corporations show profits growing by double digits growth.[6] Even the working class is benefiting from the Bush economy, as unemployment hits an all time low in March 2007.[7] Bush worked with Democrats to raise the minimum wage to a more livable level.[8]

Uh huh... due to stock changes... riiiiight, Nothing to do with tax cuts? Never forget we live in a world where 80% of the wealth is owned by 2% of the population and 50% of the worlds total wealth is owned by 1% of the population. Where a million children die every month due to lack of basic care and where we care more about Clinton getting a . .. .. .. .. .. .. . than Dick cheney shooting another guy in the face and making the victim apologize on TV.

 

[Shaded]

now thats a faith I can sink my teeth into! Got any pamphlets?

Sure, and it also includes nude pictures of lopez that you can use to compare your observations with the real shape of the butt, just for 5 bucks!