Youtube maps of the future Balkans...

[NedimNapoleon]

I noticed the lack of greater Croatia in this thread.

 

[Kyriakos]

Is there ever any greater Slovenia?

 

[NedimNapoleon]

You asked for it:

 

[Tee Kay]

Edit: and then there's this

Spoiler :

 

[TheLastOne36]

Would the Albanian sea be freshwater?

 

[Leoreth]

Repatriate the Turks and Azeris to Mongolia

 

[Domen]

"Civic nationalism" means a nationalism based on shared adherence to a certain set of political and ethical principles, rather than a shared culture, ethnicity or religion. One of the most famous projects of civic nationalism was in fact located in Eastern Europe- the Soviet Union, which in at least some periods attempted to constructed a generalised "Soviet" identity based on certain political principles, compatible with various regional and linguistic identities, so that one could be a Russian Soviet, a Lithuanian Soviet or a Georgian Soviet.

Nationalism based on citizenship rather than ethnicity (so long as citizenship itself is not based pretty much solely upon ethnicity of course). The kind of "you're born here, you're from here, no matter where your folks are from" nationalism instead of the "your parents were originally from another land. You too must be from that land not really this" type nationalism.

"Civic nationalism" means a nationalism based on shared adherence to a certain set of political and ethical principles, rather than a shared culture, ethnicity or religion.

All nationalism is based upon a shared culture. It's just that the under civic nationalism, the basis for the groups' belonging isn't due to ethnic or religious membership, but to the culture of ideals.

As an example, I'd count as a civic nationalist: I believe that European culture is based on both ethnic (specifically linguistic) and religious roots to an extent, but no membership in either is a requirement for belonging to the culture or the European nation. The roots of the culture are a guideline; the culture and the nation itself are inclusive not exclusive.

Thanks for 2 contradictory definitions.

But if we accept what Virote Considon wrote, it seems that civic nationalism was a state ideology in Poland between 1926 and at least 1935.

===================================

Regarding Traitorfish' point of view:

"Civic nationalism" means a nationalism based on shared adherence to a certain set of political and ethical principles, rather than a shared culture, ethnicity or religion. One of the most famous projects of civic nationalism was in fact located in Eastern Europe- the Soviet Union, which in at least some periods attempted to constructed a generalised "Soviet" identity based on certain political principles, compatible with various regional and linguistic identities, so that one could be a Russian Soviet, a Lithuanian Soviet or a Georgian Soviet.

Too bad that the Soviet Union was persecuting, imprisoning or killing everyone who was a Russian, a Lithuanian or a Georgian - but not Soviet.

So the "Soviet" identity was "compatible" with regional and linguistic identities, only if they unquestionably believed in "Soviet principles"...

So thank you very much for such "awesome projects"...

In "Soviet edition" this whole "civic nationalism" was simply persecution of everyone who didn't share Soviet political and ethical principles.

Regarding religion, ethnicity, culture:

The Soviets not only didn't bother about Soviet citizens sharing them. They wanted to destroy things like religion, ethnicity & culture... "Homo Sovieticus" was to be a person with no any religious, ethnic or cultural adherence - but OTOH, an ardent follower of Soviet political principles.

So basically the civic nationalism (at least in Soviet edition) is an ideology the main goal of which is to destroy any cultural, religious, political, ethnic or ethical diversity. And to cause everyone to believe in the "only just", state-sponsored set of political and ethical principles.

To be honest, I 100 times more prefer the Virote Condition's definition of civic nationalism, than this Soviet-like madness...

Another thing is that Virote Condition's definition of civic nationalism is very close to my understanding of what patriotism is.

So it seems that simply "Westerners" invented a neologism for "patriotism" - an originally Greek word, which is already thousand years old.

 

[Traitorfish]

Domen, what point do you think that you are actually making? It is very far from obvious.

 

[Turquoiside]

Repatriate the Turks and Azeris to Mongolia

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Need moar Greater Armenia maps!

 

[TheLastOne36]

Need moar Greater Armenia maps!

Armenians have a better shout-out than our Balkan friends in this department.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Armenian_population_map_1896.jpg

and

Also this is cool because this was actually officially used by Armenian officials at the Paris Peace Conference:

Spoiler :

 

[r16]

Wait so you're saying that Bosnians are Turks and that the Serbs bravely defended all of Europe..

actually ı am not .

After the battle of Kosovo the Turks didn't just march into Bosnia. We actually defeated them at the Battle of Bileća and prevented any other invasions during Tvrtko Is rule.

more power to my view .

So your theory is just stupid and you guys think you can argue about our reasons for conflict and war sitting by a computer somewhere else in the world and think to have the answers to all. You haven't lived here, you haven't heard and seen stuff I cant even say here,

though once a fellow student in the university was led to talk about a relative (of that student) who was in the Caucaus at the Chechen war and now possibly a martyr (which was something like in1996) , just to see whether ı would react . You know only because ı would shave once in three weeks .

In our you mean Turkey? Well none really if you would invade N. America or China but if you were invaded thats a different story. I know quite a few

and isn't this the exact reason your neighbours tried to kill you all , so that great plans hatched in dark smoke filled rooms , or maybe brightly lit conference halls could be realised with less trouble ?

this edit on June13 does not exactly add much , but might be useful .

Spoiler :

ı started drafting this after a news bulletin in which the US Defence Secretary was mentioned having a speech on the close relationships between the two countries , in which he had a little trouble spelling the name of the seperatist organization that must have killed something like 23200 people on this side . Considering such things are not an issue for the US , what can one say ? The US Ambrassador to Ankara was shown telling , as far as ı could get from the TV , "only" a new Constitution was being drafted , presumably respecting the redlines around . How nice it comes after the decision taken to paint the US red . This phrase is used under the presumption that painting a place red means having good fun there .

and am sure nobody will bother dusting old stuff , like Turkish newspapers dated October 25th, 1987 . Since even the Turkish journalist who made the interview is not aware that to avoid helping us , in case we wanted it , the Article 5 of the NATO treaty was declared null and void . Help being some assistance against the seperatist camps in Saddam's Iraq . Though as a one way street . We always have a common past and a promising future when it comes to we helping others .

relationships are always about gimme gimme , wouldn't you say ? West wanted this country to be a role model for the Middle East , this country responded by going full tilt , eroding the certainly limited gains of the Republic . All right , so what - if this is what the people want ? Oh no , America needs a break in the op-tempo and sure enough all the journos are on the need for team play -before some accidental combustion burns down the role-model , the sorta Potemkim village - and, across the political spectrum we see miracles ... Soo , one guy even comes up with the thing that supposes Turkey can alone stop the Armageddon . And you call me a fool ? Sure , ı am ...

this latest gem needs some close-up . An American wise man contacts the journalist to assure Israel and Iran are about to destroy each other with nukes , kinda imaginary on a certain level regarding Iran , and only we can establish a bridge between them . For this we should make peace with Israel . Where our "hostilities" reached a peak when they boarded the Mavi Marmara , sent there to provoke something so that the Arabs would feel an unity with us . On Western advice fully cleared with Tel Aviv , when they knew the ship was not meant to try to dock at Gazze at all . Where despite the Al Jazeera International "lies" about more than 20 dead that they redacted within 24 hours , only Turkish citizens were killed . Identified by not speaking Arabic ı presume . Which was accompanied by an attack on Turkish military forces on dry land which everybody in this country attribute to a particular country .

and the language is particularly odd , whereby MAD makes a comeback . So , exactly what makes you think that it will be mutual ? Where is the bright enthusiasm on utilization by target selection , the not so famous NUTS ? Where are the "atomic queens" to decide "which side can safely advance a limited-war bishop or even a cold -war pawn " ? Indeed what happened to your undisputed conventional superiority ? This thing will of course be finally down to bayonets and not Einstein's bows and arrows , despite the extensive investment in them ... There is enough place in hell for everybody AKA the Soviet boys don't live here . Avoid using language that didn't impress them either . And the response to the journo advice (even the demand) on normalization of data flow will be a clearance to go there . Where ? Hey , wait , that was given long ago . There is an H word around here ...

this is the sort of the thing that rivets my fame .

 

[r16]

regarding maps and stuff , we are on a strictly come and take it basis , you can also bring your friends ...

 

[Domen]

These Armenian claims are justified.

 

[Tee Kay]

 

[Domen]

Damn, when we finally colonize Mars, every country will get enough space.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think these claims derive less from authentic concerns about population pressure, and more from lunatics who have been allowed near MSPaint.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Their production always sucks, cant they learn After Affects or GIMP?

 

[r16]

only to rant pointlessly , the Earth will not colonize Mars either .

 

[Virote_Considon]

The best part of this map is that Armenia is quite literally 'here-be-dragons'. It's not even engulfed by another country as normally happens in these kinda maps, it literally does not exist. Except for a lonesome Azeri road running through it, that is.

Of course Artsakh is Azeri on the map so that kinda ruins it.