Youtube maps of the future Balkans...

[Tee Kay]

If it's happening all around you because of things which are in abundance in your society, there's a good chance it will happen to you as well.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Ethnic nationalism didn't become relevant for the Ottomans until at least the very late 18th century. I'm sure neither Bayezid Yilderim nor Suleiman Kanuni saw that coming.

Too bad nationalism hadn't come earlier, perhaps they'd have beaten it out of each other sooner and with lower overall casualties as well, instead of having to go through 2 hyper-devastating world wars to get to realize that it sucks.

That's what I meant. I kinda treat nationalist and religious conflict as a broad group; both are essentially identity conflicts, just that the labels are different.

The problem is that I am talking about what would most probably have happened (broadly speaking), while you're presenting your view of history as a sort of counter-argument.

Except, history is so full of contingencies and the like that you cannot talk of a historical destiny.

Modern ideas about how people should live with each other are just that - modern ideas. If you approached 14th, 15th or 16th century people with them, they would think you mad, likely kill you in some horrible way, and then go on merrily massacring each other as their contemporary mindsets compelled them to. Different religion? Die. Or be my slave. Or pay tribute. Or hide so that I don't see your filthy face around.

Respect is not a modern idea. Tolerance is not a modern idea. Peace is not a modern wish. Granted, I'd rather not live in the 16th century, and I'm glad that the ideas of peaceful coexistance and tolerance has spread so much in modern times, but if you can't see how absurd it is to characterise the entire premodern history of the species as one long orgy of violence, I can't help you.

Are you kidding?

No.

As for the attempt to create a political nation of the inhabitants of the empire... "Oh, we're sorry we've oppressed you for the past 500 years. We're sorry, okay? Now, let's all call ourselves X and have the same rights, and all will be fine forever, promise!"

Actually, many Christians were against Ottomanism; it eroded their autonomy and privileges, especially if you're a church leader. So, yeah, goes back to what I said many times on these boards about complex identities.

[...]not that much of a difference. The notability of the Yugoslavian Breakup skews the perception here.

Indeed.

Well, the Ottoman elites also oppressed the Muslim peoples as well. Though I do think that by the time Ottomanist ideology took hold, ethnic nationalism was entrenched enough in Europe to make its success unlikely.

This is probably true.

Where the Hamidian massacres part of this civic nationalism

apart from this it is far to easy to say the young turks in an attempt to absolve the Ottoman empire

Who's absolving anyone?

Traitorfish was quite right in pointing out that the 1915 Genocide was the work of the Young Turks. The Hamidian pogroms were committed under the direction of Abdulhamid II; not that he represented the Ottomanist thinkers that were dominant in the mid-19th century, either. Abdulhamid peddled a kind of pan-Islamist absolutism, where the basis for unity was not a common citizenship but personal loyalty to the Sultan. He came to be hated by almost everybody and overthrown in a coalition that included both Young Turks and Armenian Revolutionaries in an alliance.

Also, good post by Virote.

 

[innonimatu]

Too bad nationalism hadn't come earlier, perhaps they'd have beaten it out of each other sooner and with lower overall casualties as well, instead of having to go through 2 hyper-devastating world wars to get to realize that it sucks.

You'd just have gotten international wars then. As we did get eventually. WW1 was an international war, not an inter-ethnic one. The Austrians (unlike the ottomans) were fighting it with a kind of "civil nationalism", they only broke apart after defeat. The French and German were obviously united in that war, the Russians were bot plagued by internal ethnic dissensions either, and though arguments have been made relating the UK's entry to the irish issue that only made entry desirable because modern nationalism was expected to be (and was) a "unifying force". So WW1 was a "modern war" of the nationalist age. And so was WW2. Central Europe might have had its ethnic problems still by the time of WW2, but those were not in any way the cause of the war. Central Europe was only a secondary stage for the whole thing. The war wasn't over the Sudetenland or over Danzig, ethnicity there was just used by the germans to grab more resources prior to starting the real war.

As for the attempt to create a political nation of the inhabitants of the empire... "Oh, we're sorry we've oppressed you for the past 500 years. We're sorry, okay? Now, let's all call ourselves X and have the same rights, and all will be fine forever, promise!"

They oppressed everyone equally. Very civic of them.

Then we come to Mr. Milošević again. Slobodan took the resentment felt by the Serbs at their "losses" in the '74 Constitution and combined it with the economic resentments of the Croats and Slovenes to establish a "threat" against Serbia, which he and his cronies used to manipulate their way into power of SR Serbia. They (he and his cronies) responded to the threat by reigning in power towards SR Serbia, replacing the heads of the Kosovo and Vojvodina provinces with close Serb associates and forming a coup in Montenegro to do the same. (Thus for anyone keeping tabs at home, 4 out of the 8 most powerful people in Yugoslavia were now Serbs, with 1 Croat, 1 Slovene, 1 Bosniak and 1 Macedonian). He used the anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo to specifically incite hatred against the to-this-point unconfrontational Albanian Muslims in Kosovo. This somehow died down (which was not good enough for Milošević and cronies) so they further embarked on a campaign of inciting tensions.

Isn't it interesting how this kind of thing happens in so many internal (excluding conquest by foreign power) breakups of empires? It's not pressure from "the base", it's the political leaderships exploiting and nursing regional differences as a path to power...
This does mean that such differences are a vulnerability, but I'm sure that they can be "discovered" from ancient history or just made up. Harder, but possible.

 

[r16]

some weird history of the dissolution of Yugoslavia ... The fall of the Soviet Union was a controlled crash and it happened only after strict guarantees were given / taken about Germany . The Eastern Europe was free , only after German maps lost the broken lines that marked their lost lands to the East . Something to add in this juncture is that states have evilness in them that has to be satisfied and the German itching after they finally lost the WW2 was balanced by lack of American attention , fully intentional , about their crusade . The Croats were so sure about being delivered from the Serbian menace yet the Germanic enterprise quickly fizzled . Anglosaxons do not much like competition .

anyhow , there was much bloodshed as predicted . Self-serving prophecy as Americans regularly refused playing with the "Yugoslavs" . This poster isn't shamed one bit to claim that a firm reaction from Washington would have kept the country together as an EU membership candidate ; if a breakdown was inevitable they still would have been inside the same borders and "alive" . Yet Americans wrote nightmare scenarios of a Civil War to steer clear . Saddam's folly in Kuwait came and went , distracting them , quite justifiably one must admit . After the war substantial US capability was tied in the Middle East . Considering that wasn't sufficient on its own , they also came up with Mogadishu and beyond , it is a fact that an admiral said that they went to Somalia to avoid going into Yugoslavia . All the while , Bosnians were advised to wake up and avoid what would come their way , if not be fully ready .

what this means is hard to explain , though to prove its shallowness we could just ask NedimNapoleon that how many of his friends or neighbours would volunteer to take part in our invasion of North America or campaign against China . To presume they would be taken care of by the West was a fallacy ; to suggest they should refuse UN Safe Zones -for the Blue Beret screen would allow economy of forces for the Serbs- was beyond ridiculous , that they should not take advantage of said screen to mount combat operations was even better they couldn't even laugh ...

so how come that the West saved the Bosnians ? The American contribution mattered most , as natural , and it started because they simply needed someplace to bomb to save the F-14 . How that became the F-18E / the abomination called F-35 is beyond me to tell . We kicked the seperatists hard , despite the solid support they were receiving from the "Americans , friends and their No-fly zone over Iraq" , some Blackhawks went down in Mogadishu negating Kuwait and bringing back memories of the Vietnam Syndrome . These are the reasons ? Not at all , Bosnians were "finally" fighting back . One thing always to remember about state evilness thing is that it must always be a brilliant idea , cheap and quick instead of hard labour . So the Croats and the Belgrade agreed for a last time , those Serbs in Krajina were sold and the Bosnian offensive was pre-empted , bringing a fresh army to the fight if things were to go pearshaped . Srebrenitza was given free , the way to Gorazde would be opened on bayonet point . Hence Dayton and all .

doubt Mrs Rodham would ever concur Mr.Holbrooke had a stroke after some heated debate about good old days .

kosovo was alltogether far more straighter , Serbs had to be punished for they couldn't wipe out the Bosnians . If you find this unreasonable , you can also say they had defied the West for so long , as such they had to be hit hard for credibility .

Spoiler :

there are lots of people in Turkey who are reminding Bosnia to justify Syria . Without mentioning Ankara was for Belgrade most of the time . Nor any reference that the present day , financially strong , self confident , model to be envied Turkey was allowed by the West to happen only because the previous incarnation was discovered to put aid money for Bosnia to usury . Otherwise the practically fundamentalist Islamists would have been remained as was , just like the military would have ruled supreme . Smarties don't like risks and surprises , nor they desire "uncontrollable reactions" as it was brewing at the time ...

please some blushing on the face next time comparing Bosnia to Syria .

 

[del62]

i havent a clue what your on about r16, but your latest post does read like the insane ramblings of a conspiracy theorist

 

[r16]

as a certain Mr Popeye would say , just before drawing out the spinach , am what ı am . And post#953 doesn't differ that much from %50 of what ı post .

you have a nice sig , don't you .

 

[Tee Kay]

It is well known that r16 only posts in Cryptic.

 

[Eniotna]

Exactly. "Weak" might actually be an understatement with regards to Ottoman institutions at the start of the First World War.

The Ottoman statesmen of the mid-19th century tried very hard to create a civic nationalism and did enjoy partial success for a while. Even the Young Turks, as a group, included some genuine Ottomanist or secular liberals, as well as Christians and Jews (one of the fathers of Turkism was actually a Jew from Selanik), and flirted with an alliance with the Armenian Revolutionary Federation for a time.

How can civic nationalism work if christians are considered second class subjects, had no political rights whatsoever and were generally considered inferior to muslims? Wonder why Serbs were so violent? It was their only way to gain some rights.

 

[Tee Kay]

Under the millet system, each religious communities have their own laws and their own political hierachy, their own courts and set and collect their own taxes, with the leaders of each millet reporting directly to the Sultan. This being an Islamic empire, Islamic law takes precedence whenever there's a conflict between a Muslim and a member of another millet, but with the exception of the jizya, Islamic law didn't apply to non-Muslims. Non-Muslims were exempted from the sakat tax, fasting in Ramadan and other Islamic duties, and not obligated to do military service (there was a practice of taking young Christian boys as conscripts and raising them at the palace schools to become soldiers and officials (the devshirme) but that was abolished in the 17th century). So, the millets of the Ottoman Empire (the main four being the Roman, the Armenian, the Jewish and the Muslim) were autonomous within the empire under the unifying institution of the Sultan and his slaves, each with an empire-wide authority to govern their members guaranteed by imperial edict and sanctified by Islamic law.

The millet system was dismantled in the mid-19th century and replaced by official equality for all subjects of the Empire under the ideology of Ottomanism. This was accompanied by protests from the ulema who resented being made officially equal with non-Muslims, and from the leaders of the non-Muslim millets who resented having their privileges taken away from them. Neither could do much in the way of resistance, this being a time when the Sublime Porte and the Ottomanist ideology was in strength, though the Porte did try to ameliorate their concerns, with attempts to syncretise Islamic law and the Civil code to appease Muslims, and granting of autonomy to non-Muslims. These reforms and others were implemented with the aim to eventually instill a civic nationalism among all citizens of the Ottoman Empire. In the event, the reforms were instituted with genuine intentions, but was haphazardly implemented, a consequence of combination domestic dissent, pressure from abroad, and the usual confusion that typically follows a revolution. Ottomanism reached its height in the lead up to and during the First Constitutional Era, faltered in the aftermath of the Russo-Turkish War, morphed into an undead, autocratic form under Abdulhamid, was revived after the 1908 Revolution, and finally killed off by the 1912 Balkan Wars.

 

[r16]

ı tend to have lot to say , though they are not particularly necessary . A few spoilers to decrease the load on the eyes . And here it goes , a little rant on the relationships with the peoples of the Balkans :

Spoiler :

how coincidental it is that the area dominated were populated by Orthodox Christians who might have been swamped by the Catholics if not for the existance of the Ottoman State ? ı won't claim human rights were invented by Turks , nor we have been spectacular in their application but we were in the top rank at the time , if not the very best . The Ottoman State / Empire was one where people could get by , the environment could offer hope and prospects . The participation in it was not entirely involuntarily , forced by despotism . The Ottoman Empire was the South Eastern European country , for quite awhile . When a critical mass was achieved in the early 16th Century , all that could be taken was Hungary and we kept it since Reformation , certainly divisive for Europeans , was just in . Things were slower in those days and this critical mass thing was kept for a while but barely . A 1596 war could have been Vienna a century earlier , but for the cooks who jumped the triumphant Austrians busy tent plundering , Haçova being the last time Sultans led the army in battle . Even 1683 fizzled in the end as 3 decades of fighting by a grand coalition could not break the Ottomans . Defeat yes , anhilation no.

the Yeniçeri / Janissary system was long past its prime and it certainly wasn't the state Army that kept the country after the losses up to 1700 , rather the locals who defended their homes or turf "bandit" style . ı gather Osprey titles are not exactly popular with career historians but one of them has it that our regulars were worthless while the locals would attrite any invasion over time . Net result being we could not reverse the tide yet slow to die . One by one countries would be lost but not by total military prowess of our enemies .

the rise of Russia , as an Orthodox center of gravity was even more important the the ideas of the French Revolution and the invention of Nationalism . Important in the downfall of the Ottoman Empire . It has been noted in this thread that the Balkans were an heartland for us -and not by me- and our citizens could now look to other places for hope and prospects . Serbians and then Greeks didn't need us anymore , right at a time a Balkan stream , the Kavalalı family , were definitely hindering our development in our Eastern half . Though the Kavalalı desire to supplant the Dynasty in Istanbul ended in Navarin . All they could achieve would be doing Great Powers' bidding in the years to come ; like going home when told so instead of capturing the Turkish capital as in 1839 or so . You know , this very modern phenomenon of saving people in the name of democracy and Human Rights with all the tricks was invented while fighting us , our cynicysm -probable mispelling- still surprise people for some reason ı can never understand ...

even the reputation of this country as a Jewish stronghold stems from the days . The Greeks were forfeiting their share in the Empire and this is not some whitewashing for the glory of Patrie Belle . This Turkish empire , the defender of Islam as established by Osman Gazi didn't have "any" Turks in diplomatic services and extremely few in European trade as a cornerstone of policy to keep the minorities in , removal of Greeks would mean new opportunities for the people who stayed . So when the Archbishop was hanged for starting the rebellion in 1821 , Jews were "voluntereed" by the Sultan to dump his body in the sea , which they did eagerly .The rebellion answered by killing of 6000 Jews ; since then the Greek antagonism to Turks has been reinforced by their anti-Semitism . At times they don't even care for us . No problem , ı have orbited -from a distance- stars other then Sol , disdain and dismissal by foreigners becomes second nature up there ...

ı was born in Bulgaria and lived there for the first one and a half years of my life . My parents were in school at the height of Communism and got the full treatment on the evilness of the Turks . That didn't stop them from getting the scoop on a couple of Bulgarian heroes . In the rebellion that took the 3rd major Balkan entity from us when the victims of battles and atrocies were not enough , Bulgarian rebels would raid cemeteries , dig up the freshly buried , Christian and Muslim alike and send them to Russia to whip up even more frenzy . By the time it was the turn of Bulgarians to be liberated , the Ottomans were certainly the laughing stock of the world ; as such the Americans could run their operations from the Robert College , the ancestor of a prestigious university by the Bosphorus , the place where they educated the elites who would rule the new country .

1897 was a freak accident , we got under the radar while the world was thinking on how much appetite Uncle Sam would have in Colonialism and this Boer thing was getting interesting . We were "rewarded" by lots of foreign help to reform . By this time Bosnia had been taken away and the only Balkan entity that could have supported the Porte was Albanians . The search of various palliatives ( in the shape of Ottomanism , Pan Islamic unity and finally the Turan thing) were to end in vain , no hope and prospects in the Ottoman Empire . Even the "Loyal Nation" , the Armenians could see the state would soon collapse and future lied elsewhere . Which certainly improved their standing in the eyes of the West .

a few people will remember when working as a museum guide ı was involved in simple translations of notes from English travellers in the Ottoman Empire . Additionally there is a nostalgic city magazine that's given free by a newspaper and similar travel stories in it are my favourite .

basing this part of the post on such reminiscences , one is first struck by the idea that Turks were not popular back then too . A wretched existance under a despotic management should suffice to describe it all . There is not much to be surprised about , with various failures along the way ı have maybe 20 years of school and it was always there ; this "fact" that foreigners were racists if not religious extremists , so they didn't like "us" and always preferred the Christian minorities . Not exactly so , you would be surprised by the racism against the Armenians .

let me take a breath ...

not that surprising as well . An effort ı still fondly remember was a critique added to a translation where ı opinionated the historical legacy of Rome was so entwined with the influence of the Church that the Enlightment Era intellectual would be refusing the very notion of civilization when he stood up against religious authorities . Since that was kinda shooting one's own leg , the leading personas of the day looked up for something could match Rome . Eygpt and China were early favourites until Ancient Greece dwarfed them ; afterall Romans themselves gave lots of credits to them . Hence we were doomed ; when the Western kids were raised they learned to hate us as heathen and if they replaced "Religion" with "Reason" -as they grew up- we were still alien invaders of a sacred land . The special evilness of the Ottoman Empire must owe a bit to this .

Spoiler :

as such , one gets to smile at the French consulate official who complains about the Greek lessons he took in school ; the classics should be adapted to "modern" era , so that Europeans can converse in the language of gods , 'cause the grandsons of the gods certainly do not speak the way they are supposed to . His notes were from the 1890s where the Greeks are all spectacular and even their women are most beautiful . A definite improvement as Armenians are not specifically bad and their women are kinda lumpy but will do allright in the moment . An English/Scottish traveller who visited about 50 years before has certainly nothing for the Armenians . For they were displacing the Greek expertise and keeping the Ottoman Empire afloat . No Star Wars in those days , one wonders what kept all those people from one big good crusade . It really becomes despairing to check the description of the courts of those times ; actually one is confused which account one reads for nothing appears to have changed . The only difference being the French Consul names all the judges and lists those who will take bribes and that railing against all the Christians in the system for they don't care for anything unless it involves their own interests . For he has travelled around , the barbarianTurk has been shown his place , he is a refugee in his own country , not even his language is used ... If the Christians were to unite , the Empire would fall like a house of cards . In an exact one single day .

only if he could see slightly into the future , for 1912 was a year of a such union . The European part of the empire was the source of the "wealth" that kept the empire together , its loss meant the country would go under . Something ı repeat at every opportunity that the Balkan countries were emboldened by our war in Libya , the Italian Crusade being funded by the international monetary institution collecting the taxes in the ottoman Empire as a colleteral against debts . We are so pathetic we have to pay our enemies so that we can be honoured by our own destruction . Anyhow , despite me talking so much about people choosing to be here instead of being there , money was always important and the WW1 practice has to repeated here for the sake of completeness . The Ottoman Governor welcomes the local dignitaries sitting behind a desk . His feet are on two sacks , with every movement a seducing jingle comes from them . Afterwards as each bigwig takes his leave , praying for the glory of the country the Pasha gets out a fistful of gold coins from the sacks . No counting at all , if the dignitary is important he gets two palms together and the accountant writes 80 next to his name ; lesser notables get one palm full hence 40 coins .

reforms in Ottoman Empire failed not because we were some monsters in disguise or we prayed to a murderous god , or our light skins still do not measure up to full pure Whiteness . The target audience had no interest in them , why would a Christian would want to be a full citizen of the Ottoman Empire , if that citizenship meant military service for at least a decade and possibly getting killed by close relatives fighting for independence . It was far more profitable and safe being a "second" class citizen ... An oft qouted story has this Turk opening a little shop to sell trinkets and stuff in Istanbul at the beginning of the 20th Century . He gets a call from the police station , he shows up for a dressing down , a Turk must shoulder the rifle and deploy to the borders , biznez is for others ... The policemen are also ethnic Turks . In something that was crackingly funny ı have this examination of the war in Crimea where an entire generation of little business owners and artizans were at risk ... The so called "Second" class citizens had it better than the Turks , but then it is me talking . About things that surely can not be happening ...

Spoiler :

by 1914 this country was ready to be divided into two , with foreign governors on their way . The war aims of the ruling triumvirate was a Kingdom of Arabia for Cemal , a Central Asia country for Enver and the rump for Talat and nobody takes the moral from their story . A particular personal favourite happens to be sooth sayers on how the border of this country will so be near Ankara and we will have a golden age until 2029 , maybe beyond because of , you know.... Accusing this country for this ethnicide or that genocide will not suffice , sooner or later people will have to put their money where their mouth is ; and ı am so sure how great the fun will be when we start talking the numbers .

anyhow the evil Turk lives on . Take the story of the Serbs ...

in the next spoiler .

Spoiler :

now they say their national conciousness is formed by their defeat in Kosova 1389 . They lost a king there , right , and an army . Yet the next king and the army appears to be instrumental in the defeat of the last "legal" crusade in '96 and they stood with Yıldırım in 1402 even when everybody else was joining Timur , Ankara is a rather long way from Serbia ... The wholesale conversion of Bosnians to Islam was kinda opposed by Ottoman bigshots as it would unbalance the divide and conquer game and it might turn the Serbians away for good . Certainly not for the loss of Cizye , conversion do not save people from taxes and death , the two certain things in life .

the bad blood between the Bosnians and the Serbs precede us and Islam . Though in time Serbs also identified the Bosnians as Turks , as back in the day the nationality and the religion seemed synonimious in Europe . The ice ı stand on is not that thin when ı claim it was a crusade against us as well . When the West decided to wrap up the campaign in defeat of the Islamist threat hiding in the heart of Europe , a journalist writing for for either Time or Newsweek went around , once interviewing a Serbian sniper . Comfortable in an house stacked with adult magazines up to the ceiling , with empty bottles around he told how he was still friends with Bosnians , snipers like him in everyway , repeat everyway . Scratch one peaceful minority different only in religion , child-killers as well . She might be the journalist who saw Bosnian Army jets operating from a road , some highway stretch . Hah , evil Bosnians themselves violating UN no-fly zone meant to protect them . Read the last two sentences again , Bosnian Army jets ! Helicopters might have been believeable but have no doubts about it , war ended quicker than US Media could accuse Heathen Bosnians with shooting down O'Grady . The reason the Oklahoma City bombing resolved ? Serbians are not some monsters behind every bad thing ...

which they are not . They bleed red , the same colour you or ı would bleed when cut .

and of course the reason for the Murray building was US being far too lenient ... Things look far too different from space where nobody can hear your curses .

it would be wrong to define the Serbs as a sort of rabid dogs with a special interest in aggression . A quick note to avoid a card or two , not what ı think but what the media has been presenting over the years . So what if they hate Turks , everybody does ... It is not in the past oppression by foreigners , nor in a different interpretation of religion , not in lack of experience of democratic institutions , certainly not in the genes but in a basic human trait . When interests clash , morals suffer . Higher the stakes , lower the people and actions . The case of Breivik is not ancient history , a relic from the age of myths or distant past when Scandinavians were Vikings with blood on their hands and smiles on their lips . In a land where all the statistics agree human development has reached a high level , one guy was ready to kill that many . It appears he is one who gets rections from killing ; limiting himself to maybe 30 he could have gone away and the police would have gone medieval on those two Chechen refugee kids who were taught by their parents one better runs away from armed and masked men . And his one agenda is finishing what 1683 started , what is the clash of interest , no tricorder yet devised can read ... Serbs were at least saving Europe from Turks aka ethnic Bosnians . And us by a long shot .

 

[Silurian]

Well that about says it all

 

[Tee Kay]

Huh, that was surprisingly readable. There are even some good points in between the nationalist cynicism.

 

[kochman]

No, it was mainly completely absurd.

 

[Kyriakos]

No, it was mainly completely absurd.

And the thread should get back to maps I'll see if i can dig up some more...

Edit: The last one in particular has great borders:

 

[TheLastOne36]

I like the paint job on some of these maps.

 

[Oohforf]

I don't know, but I think this dude has something against Serbia.

I don't know. Feeling?

Check out that Bosnia, lol. Turkish Greece? MACEDONIAN BULGARIA? Romania looks fine, though

Oh, my head. What a crazy place, the Balkans.

It's beautiful down there, though.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Can these videos even be the products of rational adults? They look like they were done by kids who picked up an atlas one day and started imagining things.

 

[r16]

ı have spent the last 5 years stressing ı don't amount to anything , the last 3 underlining ı am not the one to make deals , with all due respect ı am not the guy to handover folders . What do you think this is , a good diplomat - bad diplomat game ? ı go around on the net claiming ı am a Starfleet admiral ; should have been enough to disregard me . Only we speak in our name but am unworthy is a perfect entry to this post . For ,

The last one in particular has great borders:

ı can top that with hands tied behind my back .

usual disclaimers , the emphasis is on the blue marble , not anything visible in the image . Regarding methodology , isn't the question that whether the US is ready to accomodate us or not , but rather how longer we will accomodate US ? On conviction , one is really tempted to give a heads up to the Republicans now that the elections are just months away on how Hillary Clinton must be in treason to US , now that she just woved that they would cooperate with Turks against those who threaten Turkey .

not that Mrs Rodham was around here lately repeating once again Esad must go . Now that there is no doubt that she is a basically good person and she would like to end violence in that particular country , why doesn't she come with a new game plan ? Say , will not support it , since obviously ı can't , but how about Qatari Amir first , Esad second if he feels like it and the Saudi Royal Family third ?

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Serbs were at least saving Europe from Turks aka ethnic Bosnians . And us by a long shot .

Wait so you're saying that Bosnians are Turks and that the Serbs bravely defended all of Europe. First of all there was a thing called The Kingdom of Bosnia which we can assume is ethnic Bosnia. Second of all the Kingdom of Bosnia took part in the battle of Kosovo, because King Tvrtko I of Bosnia also held the title king of Serbia (when he took considerable land from them) so he was defending also his land (the principality was more or less in a vassal state to Bosnia). After the battle of Kosovo the Turks didn't just march into Bosnia. We actually defeated them at the Battle of Bileća and prevented any other invasions during Tvrtko Is rule. So your theory is just stupid and you guys think you can argue about our reasons for conflict and war sitting by a computer somewhere else in the world and think to have the answers to all. You haven't lived here, you haven't heard and seen stuff I cant even say here, so all this arguing is a waste of time, its not simple and dont you think we wouldn't have had an answer by now if it was that simple you could argue it over an internet forum.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

what this means is hard to explain , though to prove its shallowness we could just ask NedimNapoleon that how many of his friends or neighbours would volunteer to take part in our invasion of North America or campaign against China.

In our you mean Turkey? Well none really if you would invade N. America or China but if you were invaded thats a different story. I know quite a few.

 

[Kyriakos]

A-Ha! I knew it. Bosnia is dangerous. The only solution is borders with Serbia