zerksees emperor training mission

[zerksees]

• i'm a monotheism fan. don't we have a fairly early special unit, too? my civ3 manual is buried somewhere
• we have an early special unit and some form of cheaper building (temples?). be aggressive with the special unit to pound others early and get our growth curve on top. temples help with both culture and happiness so we might be able to expand our borders a little faster.

the 10th-turn map looks like we have nothing to our southeast. the northwest is probably the rest of the local landmass. the best place for a settler right now is either to the west of the warrior (ivory + deer) or to the southwest of thebes (that fish-like partial icon). there's a nice riverbend in the northwest that the warrior might follow to make some time exploring. can't we make a scout yet?

Scouts are built by expansionist civs only. Egypt is religious and industrious so we can't build any. We will have to use warriors for now, and maybe a curragh or two.

Monotheism is a middle age tech. Are you talking about monarchy?

Building the city near the deer/ivory is a good choice based on what we have seen so far. But since we can get the fish and the deer into a city border (with a little help from a temple) that might be better.

We are going to get ahead/keep up by setting up a settler factory and expanding as quickly as possible. I don't think it is a good idea to have an early war when there is still free land to grab. Having a few UU around to keep barbs in check would be handy a little later. After that we will try to take them on one at a time, with a little help from our AI friends.

I would like to confirm there is nothing to the southeast. Maybe there is a cow on grassland over there.

On Emperor player must do micromanagement (MM) to improve production and minimize waste. I think it would be better to turn governor off, or else trainees will use it in the next games, and I'm sure, that it will not work on Demigod and above

I disagree with this statement. It was not until I started playing Sid level that I pretty much turned off the governor. I have regularly beaten emperor, even beaten PTW deity and C3C deity with the governor on. I do not let the governor choose what my cities will build though. I will selectively MM certain cities (i.e. settler factories and a few other exceptions) but generally use my tile improvement strategy to "help" the governor. Until I discovered CrpMapStat, I would have too many cities losing turns in anarchy because I did not MM each city each turn. MM is not my favorite, and I have found enough advantage in trading, military alliances and war tactics to overcome the AI advantage at emperor level.

Certainly good MM beats the governor every time, I just don't think it is necessary to beat emperor (with typical starting parameters as we have chosen for this game) almost every time.

 

[Whomp]

We have an early special unit and some form of cheaper building (temples?). be aggressive with the special unit to pound others early and get our growth curve on top. temples help with both culture and happiness so we might be able to expand our borders a little faster.

Why temples? Temples are great for 100k cultural wins but is this the VC the team is attempting?
Remember temples stay with you the rest of the game and bear a cost each turn till the end of the game. What is the purpose of the temples if you can impact happiness through the lux slider and luxuries?

I'm sure Zerksees will discuss specialization of cities as you move on but every city does not need to acquire all the buildings.

What builds pay for themselves?

The exception on temples IMO would be if you need quick culture pressure on a neighboring city or in the end game when you're trying to expand borders for a domination win.

As far as trading, this was used to evaluate all the trades in a zero science training game I was involved with. It may be useful in this game as well to make a save before you consumate a trade so it can be evaluated for training purposes. It's up to you guys and Zerksees if this would be useful.

When structuring a trade per Bede's tenets:
Start with the most expensive monopoly and work your way down to the next near monopoly and finish with the cheap techs at the end of your trading. This gives the opportunity for 3 or 4 fers and a profitable trade.
The decision making process:
1. Can I afford it?
2. Do I need it?
3. Can it be traded around profitably?
If only 1 of these 3 qualifies then it's a bad trade. If it's 2 of 3 it's acceptable and if it's 3 of 3 it's excellent.

 

[bobbabooey]

I am looking at the image from the end of the 10th turn. My plan is to explore North with the 1st warrior heading up the mountains to be able to see as much as possible. I also plan on exploring south west with the new warrior. I would build another warrior then start on a temple.

Not sure what I should do with the worker after the mine is complete. I usually build roads all round my territory when I begin a game. (I could use a suggestion here on what I should do with the worker next).

I would settle right where warrior #1 is standing because that would place the city on a hill therefore helping with defense at war time. The other benefits would be the deer and Ivory.

I think this training mission is a great idea. I have played zerksees before and always wondered what he does to get so strong so fast.

Bill

 

[zerksees]

(I could use a suggestion here on what I should do with the worker next).

Mine the tile 1 S of Thebes, then build a road to the new city location (2 SE of deer I think), which is going to be on the tile directly between the deer and the fish so our settler can get there faster. Trust me this is the best location so far as we can get bonus food from the fish and the deer to increase population faster and maybe get a settler factory from that city. If there is time after that road a grassland tile that could be reached by either city.

 

[bobbabooey]

Turn 1 3550 BC +0 gold per turn Mysticsm 16 turns
No actions
Thebes produced warrior Start build warrior (3 turns) Borders expanded

Turn 2 3500 BC +0 gold per turn Mysticsm 13 turns spotted barbarian warrior to the east
sent worker to create mine South of Thebes
sent warrior 2 to talk to barbarian warrior
sent warrior 1 north in mountains to explore
warrior now 4 turns to produce in Thebes

Turn 3 3450 BC +0 gold per turn Mysticsm 12 turns
made contact with the Iroquois as Iroquois warrior took out barbarian.
tried to trade Masonary and 10 gold for Alphabet. "It can't be done".
Moved Warrior 2 back into city for protection.
Started building mine South of Thebes
warrior now 2 turns to produce in Thebes

Turn 4 3400 BC +0 gold per turn Mysticsm 11 turns
fortified warrior in Thebes
Northern explorer Warrior found 2 more ivories.
Iroquois warrior fortified in swampland outside of our borders.
tried to trade Masonary and 10 gold for Alphabet. Still no luck.
Warrior produced. Start build temple (8 turns)

Turn 5 3350 BC +0 gold per turn Mysticsm 10 turns
Sent warrior 3 to explore South. Sent Warrior 2 to explore North west.
Iroquois warrior went back home East.

Turn 6 3330 BC +0 gold per turn Mysticsm 9 turns
Attempt to trade with Iroquois again but will not give an acceptable offer. Probably better to hold off on trading until we find more civs??? (not sure, Please advise techinques for trading between civs, especially this early in the game)
Warrior exploring North West found a goodie hut. Head North west to get it in 2 turns.

Turn 7 3250 BC +0 gold per turn Mysticsm 8 turns
Worker completed mine. Send West to create road to new city location.
Temple will be done in Thebes in 5 turns. Population increase to occur in 6 turns.
Iroquois now has Bronze working, Alphabet, Pottery and Warrior code. Iroquois is cautious. Gonna wait to see what the goodie hut brings.

Turn 8 3200 BC -1 gold per turn Mysticsm 7 turns
Hit goodie hut. Received a settler. Going to send him with the warrior escort back east. Unsure where to send him. Since the 2 Ivory is close, I am thinking to send him there.
Traded Iroquois Masonary for pottery plus 45 gold.

Turn 9 3150 bc -1 gold per turn Mysticsm 6 turns
Sent warrior and settler east and found 2 more deer along with a hill. I think the hill would be best to settle on as there is plenty of food, sheids, gold and luxuries.
After trading with Iroquis, they are now polite.

Turn 10 3100 bc -1 gold per turn Mysticsm 5 turns
worker completed road. Move worker west 1 tile for building road.
Iroquois now have a 2nd city of Niagara Falls.
Temple has 2 turns remaining until it is complete and the city will add 1 citizen in 3 turns. We currently have 53 gold in our treasury.
Our citizens in Thebes are content. The city is producing 5 sheilds per turn and 6 food per turn.

View attachment 111350

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

lurker's comment: thought y'all might find this amusing

originally posted by bede
Temples...temples...priests are prevaricating parasites who pillage the body politic.

You want culture, build libraries. You get something back from the investment.

You want content citizens, build marketplaces, trade for luxuries, build towns for luxuries, build colonies for luxuries.

If happiness is a problem in a settler or worker farm, it is a self-limiting problem. Raise the luxury tax, hire an MP, you only need to make the expenditure for a couple of turns. Temples are with you forever and are a permanent drag on the economy

 

[zerksees]

My thoughts:

General:

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“+0 gold per turn Mysticsm 13 turns”
To save time you can probably skip typing this in every turn. Just update if you have to change the science slider or if a tech is completed.

About what we have learned and done:

Goody hut with a settler! Excellent. This will be city #2. Since there are so many plains tiles around our capital and it would take workers and time to improve them enough, not to mention the time to walk closer, I think putting the goody hut city on the hill is a good choice. I would build a curragh in there first (for faster exploring and meeting the other civs), then maybe a warrior then a worker. Once the city is founded send the warrior north to explore some more. I know it is counterintuitive to you guys but it will be OK to leave the city open for a little while. The other warrior west of Thebes will finish his westward exploring soon (I am guessing he will hit the coast in four or five turns) and should then come over to protect the city. The barbarians can’t take the city – only loot some gold at this time and the AI is not ready to attack us yet.

I would not finish the temple in the capital. I would switch to settler and lose one turn of shields. This will be city #3. We are in expansion phase and I want another city as soon as possible. After settler build another warrior then another worker.

City #3 should be placed directly south of where the worker is in the picture (NOT where bobbaboey has suggested) and put to work on a temple. It will be directly between the fish and the deer and the border expansion will give access to both of them. Sorry AdmiralK but we are not waiting the extra 50 shields plus getting literature tech to build a library.

Our current worker should finish the road on the tile he is on then head to the bonus grassland tiles in range of the capital and city # 3. Mine then road each one.

Regarding the trade, I am not sure what to do with these early trades. If you trade you may not get the best techs for your tech, since you only get one trade. The AI may then sell your tech to the others they meet. If you wait you may not get to trade at all since the AI will meet someone else first and get it before from them, or you may get a tech from each civ you meet. It is a crapshoot. If you look at Whomp’s trade qualifications we did not get a good deal. I may have held off, but I also like alphabet and may have paid some gpt to get it. I do not think this was a bad trade. Lurkers feel free to chime in on this one.

Looking at the 45 gold the Iroquois had, I am going to guess that the Iroquois know one other civ who they collected the 10 gold from in a tech trade, and they found one goody hut or barb camp paying 25 gold. Add that to the 10 they started with and you get 45. We need to find that other civ ASAP.
Now that we know the Iroquois are to the east we should send a warrior to explore over there quickly to figure out if they are boxed in, who they already met, and if there is a chokepoint over there. The warrior in Thebes can escort the new settler for city #3 then head east once the city is up. We’ll chance it that the polite Iroquois won’t attack, at least until their military units step into our territory that is.

lomax - you are next
Tominator2 - you are on deck

 

[Whomp]

Traded Iroquois Masonary for pottery plus 45 gold.

Without seeing the save before the actual trade it's hard to tell if this was a good deal or whether it could've been improved. However, my inclination is that it was a very good trade. Maybe the players can make a save right before and post those along with the final save.

To use these tenets...
1. Can I afford it? Yes and it gave back an underrated tech and much needed cash to keep the science slider high and even run deficit research.
2. Do I need it? Pottery is a very valuable tech so you can build a granary.
3. Can it be traded around profitably? No. More contacts please. There's someone close by. Meeting them will bring down the prices of known techs and make a monopoly on mysticism and poly very valuable in trading.

For the new players I use the mapstat utility (others civassist II). I would
highly recommend any of the players download one of these two programs. They are great utilities for seeing the big picture very easily. (IE happy vs sad cities (civil unrest is bad), techs the AI have on one screen etc.)

My strategy would be to switch the temple to a granary.
Thebes is too small to pop a settler at 2 and even at pop 3 science at pop 1 would be horrible. Move the worker to the forest and chop it down to accelerate the granary.

Always remember...growth is power.

 

[Own]

lurker's comment: thought y'all might find this amusing

Seen it before but each time I read it it's better and better .

 

[zerksees]

My strategy would be to switch the temple to a granary.

Thanks for the feedback on the trade and granaries.

However I can see we do not agree about granaries. I follow a rule of thumb I think I learned from SirPleb - do not build a granary unless a city can make more than two extra food. I tried to locate where I read this but could not, so here are my thoughts about this:

If a city makes two food the decision to make a granary can be expensive. If you put out the settler then in a short time (in this case two turns, one to move to the new home and one to build), you will be making four food as each city can make two extra food. Either way in ten turns your population goes up by two. Sure I will lose shields and commerce for a turn or two, but the new city will have production in its base tile and the tile that its first citizen is working. This will easily offset the granary and have no per turn costs as upkeep on a granary is one per turn. With a granary I invest 60? shields and 1 gpt for as long as I need it, a fairly expensive proposition, not to mention the ability to carry more units for free with the additional city.

After reading what I just wrote, you might question why build a granary at all? If I can set up all my cities to get two extra food after each expansion I should not need one at all. There are several problems with this. The first is that not every city can produce two extra food right away. Look at all those plains on this map - they will need irrigated to get any cities in there to two extra food. Furthermore, eventually corruption will be a problem and I won't be able to crank out enough shields to get the settlers out fast enough from the outside cities. Also, when you build workers there is no immediate return to your population/production like there is from a new city. Sure there are benefits of the improvments they lay down, but I am not going to try to quantify that. However I do know that in this case of workers I want the popluation to rebuild as quickly as possible.

Now, in this case we plan to build a city that can have three or four extra food after a few improvements are made, and hopefully in time to help with our expansion phase.

 

[Whomp]

If SirPleb said it that's enough for me. My only thought was the capital could be a combo warrior/worker pump. I haven't run the numbers on it but my biggest concern is Thebes can't pop a settler at size 2. What to do then? Barracks if not gran?

 

[zerksees]

Some day I'll run across SiPleb's thread again I just can't find the thread now.

We are going to lose a turn of production in Thebes and wait with the shield bin full until it gets to size 3. This is not ideal but it will only cost us one turn of shields.

 

[lomax]

My thoughts:

General:

After you post to a thread, Civfanatics forum will generate an email the first time the thread has been updated since the last time you logged in. I get emails all the time indicating the threads I participate in have been updated. However this requires that you log in each time you visit. If not you will not get these emails and it will be up to your memory to check. I recommend that you allow the website to automatically log you on each time you visit. Edit: You also need to go into user control panel and change preferences to "immediate notification" on thread updates.

“+0 gold per turn Mysticsm 13 turns”
To save time you can probably skip typing this in every turn. Just update if you have to change the science slider or if a tech is completed.

About what we have learned and done:

Goody hut with a settler! Excellent. This will be city #2. Since there are so many plains tiles around our capital and it would take workers and time to improve them enough, not to mention the time to walk closer, I think putting the goody hut city on the hill is a good choice. I would build a curragh in there first (for faster exploring and meeting the other civs), then maybe a warrior then a worker. Once the city is founded send the warrior north to explore some more. I know it is counterintuitive to you guys but it will be OK to leave the city open for a little while. The other warrior west of Thebes will finish his westward exploring soon (I am guessing he will hit the coast in four or five turns) and should then come over to protect the city. The barbarians can’t take the city – only loot some gold at this time and the AI is not ready to attack us yet.

I would not finish the temple in the capital. I would switch to settler and lose one turn of shields. This will be city #3. We are in expansion phase and I want another city as soon as possible. After settler build another warrior then another worker.

City #3 should be placed directly south of where the worker is in the picture (NOT where bobbaboey has suggested) and put to work on a temple. It will be directly between the fish and the deer and the border expansion will give access to both of them. Sorry AdmiralK but we are not waiting the extra 50 shields plus getting literature tech to build a library.

Our current worker should finish the road on the tile he is on then head to the bonus grassland tiles in range of the capital and city # 3. Mine then road each one.

Regarding the trade, I am not sure what to do with these early trades. If you trade you may not get the best techs for your tech, since you only get one trade. The AI may then sell your tech to the others they meet. If you wait you may not get to trade at all since the AI will meet someone else first and get it before from them, or you may get a tech from each civ you meet. It is a crapshoot. If you look at Whomp’s trade qualifications we did not get a good deal. I may have held off, but I also like alphabet and may have paid some gpt to get it. I do not think this was a bad trade. Lurkers feel free to chime in on this one.

Looking at the 45 gold the Iroquois had, I am going to guess that the Iroquois know one other civ who they collected the 10 gold from in a tech trade, and they found one goody hut or barb camp paying 25 gold. Add that to the 10 they started with and you get 45. We need to find that other civ ASAP.
Now that we know the Iroquois are to the east we should send a warrior to explore over there quickly to figure out if they are boxed in, who they already met, and if there is a chokepoint over there. The warrior in Thebes can escort the new settler for city #3 then head east once the city is up. We’ll chance it that the polite Iroquois won’t attack, at least until their military units step into our territory that is.

lomax - you are next
Tominator2 - you are on deck

Zerksees - Where do you suggest the placement of city #3, directly south of the worker, wouldn't the city #3 and Thebes boarder over lap, or I am confused?

 

[zerksees]

Zerksees - Where do you suggest the placement of city #3, directly south of the worker, wouldn't the city #3 and Thebes boarder over lap, or I am confused?

Yes they will overlap. This is not a problem, as each will still have plenty of tiles to work. In the later game once we get hospitals it may affect city growth but hopefully the AI's will be toast by then

I know this city placement is closer than you are used to but it will not be a problem. In emperor and above games I always try to place my cities three spaces apart so that units from one city can get to the next in one turn, in case an AI sneak attacks me or the barbarians come knocking. This also means fewer military units needed to defend the same number of cities, allowing my cities to build other more important things. Now against human players I might be more concerned but I feel safe with the somewhat predictable AI.

 

[lomax]

Year 3050 (Turn 1)
Move ‘Goodie” settler into place
Continue to build road

Year: 3000 (Turn 2)
Place City “Two” on hill
Continued exploration

Year 2950 (Turn 3)
Built Settler
Continued exploration

Year 2900 (Turn 4)
Continued exploration
Built City 3
Started road to #2

Year 2850 (Turn 5)
Got Mysticism –tried to trade w/Iroquois – but got the reply – It can’t be done
Started the Wheel

Year 2800 (Turn 6)
Uneventful

Year 2750 (Turn 7)
Produce a warrior in Thebes and sent him east
Discovered some whales, and hay stack to the west

Year 2710 (Turn 8)
Meet an Iroquois warrior in the Northeast

Year 2670 (Turn 9)
Traded Mysticism to Iroquois for Warrior code and 20 gold

Turn 2630 (Turn 10)
Uneventful

 

[Whomp]

Lomax do you have the autosave for 2850 and 2670 BC? I'd like to view them if you have them in your "auto" file.

Why did you choose wheel over poly?

Without seeing the save how would you to answer these questions regarding the trade.
1. Could you afford it?
2. Did you need it?
3. Could it be traded around profitably?

 

[zerksees]

Why did you choose wheel over poly?

Indeed. This is a training mission - he must have missed that instruction?

Whomp do you think we should give up those turns and switch to poly now?

Also, city 3 should be working on a temple, city 2 should be building a worker and the worker should be mining south of Thebes.

Once city two build a worker it can connect itself to the core.

Tominator2 you are next. Here are my recommendations:
1) Switch Thebes to archer immediately then another archer
2) Switch city 3 to temple immediately
3) Switch city 2 to worker immediatelythen curragh

Everything else went well I think. Exploring went well, and the landscape looks better than I thought after the last 10 turns. I spotted a few places we might be able to use to generate more population quickly - the wheat on floodplain to the west looks a little far but tempting. I am surprised we have not met anyone else yet.

 

[Whomp]

Tough call Zerksees. The thing about wheel is it would seem to be a tech the Iroquois would research soon considering their UU needs that and HBR.

I'd be inclined to finish it since it's probably very close and maybe there's a trade opportunity there. Poly should still be a monopoly tech IMO even if wheel is researched first. Contacts are crucial at this point and the curragh is a great tech trading tool.

Since this is a training game once a player has a deal they would like to make it would be useful to save the game right before the deal is done then make the trade. This way one of us can check it and see if there was a way to improve on the deal, a great trade or whether it was even necessary to trade. Do you guys want to do this?

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

how bout a screenie for the lurkers?

 

[Tominator2]

summary:
- exposed more land
- found the iroquois border (boy are they close )
- minor barbarian trouble

future:
- excellent city site next to cow (cow, diamonds, and gold)
- the iroquois look big and close

2630 - changed production

• Thebes -> archer
• Two -> worker
• There -> temple

2590

• warrior intoThree
• worker starts on road to Two
• warriors explore
• Two produces worker, starts on archer (change to boat?)

2550

• new Two worker starts road through cow
• warrior in Three fortifies
• warriors explore
• Thebes makes archer, starts on another

2510

• new Tebes archer starts out nw to secure possible city sites
• more exploration

2470

• more exploration
• contact with Iroquois border
• barbarian attack on exploring warrior (now elite)

2430

• beat barbarian camp, took 25 gold
• more exploration
• people expand palace (wennt with landscaping)

2390

• more exploration
• ivory makes it into thebes
• thebes makes another archer, starts on settler

2350

• thebes archer explores se
• warriors explore
• worker moves onto another ivory

2310

• archer in nw attacks barbarians (kills one)
• archer near thebes heads n to help
• more exploration

2270

• more exploration
• barbarian is bearing down on worker

Tom