Zwi1 - Low Pressure Deity

[gormdragan]

Thanks for the info...Zwingli.

 

[dojoboy]

What about city placements? Any over riding preferences? Don't laugh at my pics, trying to use graphic converter to add grpahics to images. Any advice is welcome.

I'll play tonight.

western region

eastern region

 

[Zwingli]

Your eastern city placement looks good, but I would avoid placing cities behind the southern mountain range as these would be rather corrupt and hard to develop. Here are my suggestions:

Red Dots: Immediately productive cities close to Memphis. Probably send the two settlers in the area to claim these spots.

Blue Dots: Good spots further from Memphis. Send the next wave of settlers to claim these positions.

Black Dots: Low Priority poor city locations, but get them if India grabs the better spots.


Of course, the city placement scheme has to be flexible in case an Iroquois or Indian city is founded. France seems to be satisfied with its current city count, as I haven't noticed any settlers from them since their war with India.

 

[dojoboy]

Pre-turn: Wake stack of horses to intercept Indian settlers.

460 AD - NY builds settler, set to library (sorry tao, one turn to settler was hard to pass up); MM DET for faster aqueduct production; BUFF rushes courthouse.

470 AD - BUFF b courthouse, set to library.

480 AD - CHI b library, set to uni; BOS b library, set to uni; PITT founded.

490 AD - WASH b uni, set to Bach's; ATL b library, set to uni; OAK founded; Traded spice to France for wm, 12 gpt, & 20g.

500 AD - SF b mktpl, set to library; MIA b mktpl, set to library; Rush settler in SD.

510 AD - Printing Press discovered; DEN b worker, set to worker; SD b settler, set to settler; traded PP to France for Banking & wm; traded PP & 435 g to India for Invention; researching Democracy.

520 AD - NO b harbor, set to library; RoP w/ France expires, not renewed.

530 AD - NY b library, set to uni; PHI b aqueduct, set to library; SEA b mktpl, set to aqueduct; Forbidden Palace constructed in Memphis, set to library; gpt goes from 34 gpt to 114 gpt (ride it out to my end-turns).

540 AD - HOU b temple, set to library; DAL b temple, set to library; Tampa Bay founded; purchased French worker for wm & 24 gold.

550 AD - SF b library, set to uni; Rush aqueduct in BALT.

Observations: Need banks for Wall Street down the road; not one rival city was built, I've got 3 Indian settlers and their escorts held for questioning (see image); currently one Indian settler w/ escort and Iroquois settler w/ escort heading east; Bach's near completion, might get it (see image); 2 American settlers nearing destinations (see image)

Save file

 

[Zwingli]

tao <- Up now
gormdragan
Zwingli
KELLO (reconfirm interest)
dojoboy
------------------
It seems that we got some trading value out of Printing Press, and I see that we are researching Democracy. This could be a good tech to trade for other techs, but we probably don't want to revolt to the government as the anarchy turns wouldn't be worthwhile for an industrial/non-religious civ. Bach's Cathedral would be nice, but we don't have much happiness problems at the moment, and Smith's Trading Co. would also be a worthwhile goal.

 

[tao]

Looking at the save, I did not like the situation at all. Let me rephrase it: I would have chosen a different approach. I would have accumulated money instead of researching, because in my opinion, this is the better way on deity. But research on democracy it too advanced to stop now.

In details: Soon I hate dojoboy for sending workers and settlers on long gotos. My mistake: I didn't catch all of them.
IMHO Oakland should have been placed next to the cattle.
I start a major reshuffling of workers from the west toward the Forbidden Palace area.
Change production in about 10 cities giving preference to markets. Optimize cities by micromanagement.

Buy gunpowder from India for spices, 25gpt, 158g. France has chemistry.

560: Orleans b Bach's, Delhi cascades to Leonardos's, Washington looses about 160 shields on bank; silly even trying to go for Bach's in the capital on deity.

580: France builds Newton's in Rennes. They must be nearly done w the Middle Ages. Crank research up to 80% giving democracy next turn.

590: France is industrial. We discover democracy and try to advance as much as possible:
India gives chemistry for ivory, 37gpt, 145g.
France gives physics and metallurgy for democracy, 112gpt.
India gives incense, 191g, 51gpt for democracy and physics.
We stop research and use 10% lux to trigger wltpds.

610: Iroquois declare war on France. Great! Sell them saltpeter dirt cheap to make it harder for the Frenchmen.

650: India has magnetism and we can enter Industrial Times:
Get ToG, wm, 4g from France for silks, 156gpt, wm.
Buy magnetism, wm from India for ToG, 68g, wm.

My ideas on the future: We still favour infrastructure and are military weak. I built a few barracks in case war is declared on us and we have to upgrade units. Washington builds Wall Street and should resume building units afterwards. Once infrastructure is done, more cities will join. Once we have railroads, our military worries will be mostly over.

I set research on steam at 50% going -217gpt. We can't and shouldn't sustain this rate, but at least we get started.

Chicago is on pre-build for Theory of Evolution. Currently, no wonders are being build. Maps are current.

The save.

gormdragan <- Up now
Zwingli
KELLO (reconfirm interest)
dojoboy
tao

 

[gormdragan]

Got it...will try to play tonight (I got ER1 SG today too, I go by chronological order of previous player's completion, therefore play this after ER1)

any objections to unhooking iron for cheap unit production? I have not looked at the save (can't view at work) and this option is also dependent on our treasury.

 

[Zwingli]

I don't think it is necessary to unhook iron at this point for unit production, and horseman to knight upgrades cost 80g each which might be better going into research or tech purchasing. We do need enough military to hold off an invasion (quite a bit), but it seems like any offensive action will have to wait until artillery or tanks are on the scene. Of course, to maximize income from Wall Street, make sure to keep at least 1000g in the treasury to earn interest once it is built.

In terms of research, we should definitely get Steam Power as soon as possible (the AI usually tries to research Nationalism first.) After that, Medicine is another tech ignored by the AI which is on the path to Scientific Method and TOE. I don't think that France has had a golden age yet, so their war with the Iroquois might include a musketeer victory in which case France will really start to pull ahead in technology.

 

[tao]

Originally posted by Zwingli
I don't think that France has had a golden age yet, so their war with the Iroquois might include a musketeer victory in which case France will really start to pull ahead in technology.

France built Magellan's in 630AD (sorry: missed it in my write-up). Since they also have HGardens, they entered Golden Age.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by tao
In details: Soon I hate dojoboy for sending workers and settlers on long gotos. My mistake: I didn't catch all of them.
IMHO Oakland should have been placed next to the cattle.
I start a major reshuffling of workers from the west toward the Forbidden Palace area.
Change production in about 10 cities giving preference to markets. Optimize cities by micromanagement.

Those gotos were toward the FP.

Originally posted by tao
560: Orleans b Bach's, Delhi cascades to Leonardos's, Washington looses about 160 shields on bank; silly even trying to go for Bach's in the capital on deity.

W/ a production time of 15 turns, I thought we'd have a legitimate chance w/ no other city capable of pulling it off.

Originally posted by tao
590: France is industrial. We discover democracy and try to advance as much as possible:
India gives chemistry for ivory, 37gpt, 145g.
France gives physics and metallurgy for democracy, 112gpt.
India gives incense, 191g, 51gpt for democracy and physics.
We stop research and use 10% lux to trigger wltpds.

Paid off, eh?

 

[tao]

Originally posted by dojoboy
Those gotos were toward the FP.

14 workers were dogpiling near Cincinnati, a settler ended up in French territory .....

W/ a production time of 15 turns, I thought we'd have a legitimate chance w/ no other city capable of pulling it off.

Not w wonder cascade and the Ais only paying 60% on deity.

Paid off, eh?

IMHO not at all. We spent about 4.000 to 5.000 gold researching pp and democracy. I still suppose buying would have been much cheaper.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by tao
14 workers were dogpiling near Cincinnati, a settler ended up in French territory .....

In French territory? That is weird. I'll have to reload that save and see that myself.

Originally posted by tao
IMHO not at all. We spent about 4.000 to 5.000 gold researching pp and democracy. I still suppose buying would have been much cheaper.

Right, but would we have had the gold to also purchase physics, metallurgy, and chemistry?

 

[gormdragan]

In diety, we often go for 2fer, 3fer or manyfers. Hence, typical buying 1 tech will allows us to trade around the world for a few. I would agree with tao that buying would probably be cheaper.

 

[gormdragan]

Originally posted by Zwingli
I don't think it is necessary to unhook iron at this point for unit production, and horseman to knight upgrades cost 80g each which might be better going into research or tech purchasing. We do need enough military to hold off an invasion (quite a bit), but it seems like any offensive action will have to wait until artillery or tanks are on the scene. Of course, to maximize income from Wall Street, make sure to keep at least 1000g in the treasury to earn interest once it is built.

I will look at the save, the shield production of our cities and see if unhooking iron is worthwhile at all. The advantage of having lots of horseman is the ability to upgrade those in "hot" zone when war comes to us. Personally, I am not inclined to wait till tanks to start war. I will like to do some warmonging once we have like 40+ knights/cav.

To be frank, I have never played a diety game beyond middle ages so I am highly inexperienced in this. Please bear with me.

IMHO, staying out of war means staying out of war's rewards.

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by gormdragan
In diety, we often go for 2fer, 3fer or manyfers. Hence, typical buying 1 tech will allows us to trade around the world for a few. I would agree with tao that buying would probably be cheaper.

I've not had any experience w/ an AI selling me a tech, for any amount of gold, that the other civs don't already have. What do you mean by 2fer, 3fer, or manyfers?

 

[Zwingli]

A 2fer would be purchasing a tech from one civ, then selling it to another civ in exchange for a second tech thereby getting 2 techs for the price of 1. In a normal game with 7 or more opponent pulling 2fers or 3fers really helps to reduce the cost of buying tech instead of researching it. However, in our particular case, this is problematic because we are buying tech at monopoly prices (50% above normal) from France and selling them at depreciated cost to India, while the Iroquois are too backward to afford new techs.

Since France is indeed in a golden age, they will probably get all of the starting Industrial techs before us (they already have Nationalism for riflemen ). If we are lucky, we might pick up an ignored tech like Medicine first and use the monopoly price increase to our advantage.

 

[gormdragan]

Preturn:
MM Chicago to make palace(prebuild) 4turns earlier
MM Boston to make knight 1 turn earlier (already size 12 can't grow anymore anyway)
MM Baltimore to make library 4 turns faster
MM Cincinnati to make library 1 turn faster
MM Pheonix to produce 9 food this turn, and 6 the next.
MM Pittsburgh to make 2 gp for 1 turn.

660:
San Fran makes rax, starts university
Cleveland makes temple, starts library
Kansas makes temple, starts harbor

I will let the 50% research run until we are at 1000 in treasury

670:

680:
Boston makes knight, starts knight

690:
New Orleans makes aqua, starts temple (reduce unhappy pple)
Dallas makes Library, starts university

Drop research to 30%, steam in 18turns

700:

710:
Miami makes musk, starts musk
Buffalo makes bank, starts rax
Phoenix makes library, starts university

720:
NY makes university, starts bank
Phili makes library, starts university
Boston makes knight, starts knight

Drop research to 20%, steam in 22turns

730:
Seattle makes harbor, starts library

740:
We make our wall street
Washington makes wall st, starts knight
LA makes court, starts cannon
Atlanta makes bank, starts musk
Detroit makes lib, starts university
Cincinnati makes lib, starts university
Cleveland makes lib, starts university
San Diego makes market, starts university
Pittsburgh makes market, starts lib

Up research to 30%, steam in 9turns

750:
Buffalo makes rax, starts musk
New Orleans makes temple, starts market
Baltimore makes lib, starts university
Memphis makes university, starts musk

Steam in 8 turns

Ouch......France has steam, Ghandi has Nationalism

Summary:
I pretty much concentrated on research infrastructure as I see a number of cities producing libs or unis when I took over the game.

I believe we have the infrastructure to do decent research now, hopefully we can get medicine, sanitation for trade. Most importantly, TOE.

Looking at the save, I think it is feasible to win by space. French far far outnumber our troops, war is pretty much out at least for the short term. We might want to push for tech research and launch to victory.

The save

 

[Zwingli]

750 AD (0)
Turn down luxury tax to 0% and raise the research rate to get Steam Power in 6 turns rather than 8. A few cities will lose WLTPD, but getting rails sooner should be worth it.
Renegotiate spices deal with France, and they pay 26gpt rather than 12gpt.

Tech Strategy: India is currently broke, so 2fers might not happen. I will try to boost research as current deals end in order to compete with the top civ in science. Since Nationalism is an expensive optional tech, we can ignore it and head straight to Replacable Parts.

(IT) - Watch for a few minutes as France moves stacks of swordsmen through our territory. A few WLTPD's end in larger cities.

(1)
Science raised again with a slight deficit, and I continue to push infrastructure in cities which lack key buildings. Steam Power now due in 4 turns.

(2)
France has researched Military Tradition and the Indians also have it. We grant the Iroquois ROP to give them a slight adantage fighting in our territory. Memphis, Washington, and Boston continue to crank out knights.

(3)
Research is increased to 70% to get Steam Power next turn at a 168gpt deficit and workers are moved into position to begin railing.

(4)
We get Steam Power and trade it to India for Insence, Military Tradition, and WM (this was full price).
Trade silks to India for 5gpt + 69g.
Trade ivory to France for 38gpt.
A large gpt deal ended this turn, and we can sustain a high research rate for Medicine (due in 10 turns)

We have 2 sources of coal connected , and the great railing project begins. India has a source of coal under New Karachi (on our southwestern border) but has not connected it to the capital yet.

800 AD (5)
Research raised on Medicine after our treasury gets back up to 1000g (now due in 7 turns). Workers are organized into stacks of 3 for efficient railing.

(IT) - France starts Universal Sufferage (meaning they have Industrialization).

(6)
More railing, and a few cities finish infrastructure and start cavalry.

(7)
Found Santa Fe. Upgrade a few knights to cavalry and switch a few corrupt cities to workers (we have 49, but it still isn't enough with all the rails to build!).

(8)
Renew Gems for Dyes deal with France, and we pay 2gpt more than before.
France is in Anarchy .
India suddenly has some income available, so we sell them Coal (which they will connect eventually anyway) for 37gpt and spices for 25gpt.

(9) Rush a worker in fully corrupt Albaquerque for 12g. A continuous eastern rail line is nearly complete.

850 AD (10)
France has become Communist .
Sell Saltpeter to the Iroquois for 5g + 4gpt.

The Save

 

[Zwingli]

Technology: France finished Industrialization 5 turns ago, and has gone through 2 turns of anarchy, so we will almost certainly get Medicine first. When Medicine comes in, you can trade it to France for Industrialization (probably will have to kick in some extra gold + spices), then trade Industrialization to India for all of their available gold. If Industrialization + Medicine are enough to get Nationalism from India, go ahead and take the deal, but otherwise we can skip Nationalism and head straight for Replacable parts (infantry). After Medicine, we can research Sanitation (probably in 4 or 5 turns), Electricity, and Scientific Method. Now that France is in Communism, we might be able to take the tech lead for good.

Worker Actions: The top priority right now is to get a continuous rail link throughout our territory to for defensive purposes. After that, rails have to be built everywhere to increase food and shield production in every city. We will have wasted excess food after irrigated squares are railed in size 12 cities, but hospitals are only 1 tech away and the extra food will soon be useful. Keep the workers in groups of 1 or 3 to quickly put down railroad without wasting worker turns (1 worker + 1 slave is also an efficient combination.)

Edit:
dojoboy <-- Up Now
tao
gormdragan
Zwingli
KELLO (reconfirm interest)

 

[tao]

Most of our worries are over soon. To play it secure, I would not stack cavalry in the open, but fortify them in the important cities being passed by the French units. And even more units from other cities currently unthreatened and connected by rail.

I would also hurry settlers in Tampa and Oakland to found 2 cities on the coast between Richmond and Tampa before the Indian settlers arrive. I would have founded Santa Fe 2 squares SW to get both deer and fish and not leave any room for another (Indian) settlement.