Cutthroat Culture

vadalaz · Aug 4, 2021

Wow, noone except Hiawatha even tried. Very strange. Good call on going for the win despite our seemingly poor production.

beetle said:
Move spy to Sidon for the sweet Berber Cavalry

I'm getting mixed messages here.

Researching Architecture to me implies going for Sci Theory or Archaeo next and/or building some world wonder, while Berber Cavalry implies Military Sci and some sort of Artillery push. Both paths have their strengths but we have to pick one. Either way, I want to bulb Industrialization here (GS spawns in 5 turns) to max out culture from CSs, start working on Factories and get an ideology ASAP. America's taken Autocracy already. Should we just go Order then?

If we go for coups I'd prefer to try that in higher success % CSs first (Cape/Ur/La Venta/Cahokia) or culturals to capitalize on our WF bonus. Florence and Bogota have easy quests (assuming Bogota's units let our missionary through).

Spanish front looks pretty disheartening. Why is Ninja in Riga again? Anyway, I don't want to make peace with Bella, especially now that Pocatello's joined the fight. We should liberate Melbourne at the very least; I'd like to capture Seville (Colossus) and Madrid as well.

War vs Hiawatha seems like suicide or at least a very tedious uphill battle and I think we should try to maintain a DoF with him for as long as possible. Washington also went into beast mode at some point and hasn't stopped ever since.

beetle · Aug 4, 2021

I assumed Industrialization was next and Sci Theory after that. I would not expect that we unlock Military Sci for a bit, but it will take some time to ally Sidon anyway. I will not be offended if you move the Spy. Part of my problem is thinking too far ahead in the game.

Ninja has easy shots at Spanish units from that direction, and can use the hills to avoid being killed.

I am okay both with keeping the pressure on Isabella and not fighting Hiawatha.

I am not am not actually seeing a CV path, so please do lead. Hiawatha in particular seems like an obstacle.

Yes, very disappointing about not being first to Autocracy. We might have the option to be first to Order, so that is neat. But could we beat Washington to Prora?

vadalaz · Aug 6, 2021

Well, here we go.

T160:
- Spy to Ur
- Sold excess resources

Interim: Washington declares war on Hiawatha

T162:
- Golden Age
- Kiev flips

Interim: Pocatello makes peace with Bella unfortunately

T163:
- Economics
- Secularism
- Met Wittenberg

Interim: Maria makes peace with Hiawatha. Liz builds Taj Mahal.

T164:
- Kiev captured by Isa and liberated by us again
- Successful coup in Ur. Spy will stay for 1 turn to rig elections

T165:
- GS spawns. Bulb Industrialization, 10 immediate Coal

Interim: Pachacuti of all people builds Red Fort. We rig elections in Ur, someone else in Valletta - most likely England

T166-168: Fighting Spain, killing 2-3 units a turn but the Tercios just keep coming - Deity's really fun isn't it. Sci Theory.

T169:
- Renewed DoF with America
- Voted for Hiawatha as WC host since he'd have won anyway
- Trying to block Iroquois prophets, not sure what Hiawatha's doing with them

Interim: everyone's upset we're friends with America, Panama is being annoying and suiciding into us

Spoiler Screens :

Spain is not running out of units at all. We could either
- continue the war and see if things improve or
- make peace, denounce Spain for some diplo bonuses, re-DoW in 10 turns and liberate Melbourne, then see how things go

Personally I'd probably continue, with three Frigates with Range we should be able to liberate Melbourne regardless so I guess the only real advantage of making peace is the diplo buff from denouncing.

Ideology in 5, World's Fair ends in 8. Started Fertilizer mostly because nothing else seemed that interesting and it's on the way to Dynamite if we choose to go there.

raider980 · Aug 6, 2021

I’ve been following along and can join back up after tomorrow. I guess take beetles place since you’re going on vacation.

For ideology, I’d definitely say Order or Freedom for two free tenets. I guess with Order we get a chance for +34 tourism twice. Most civs will take it. And it’s better for us being wide.

Do we have Brazilwood camps yet? What is the plan for getting tourism going? Unfortunately it seems like there is no one great city with all the wonders to take; they’re kind of spread out, right?

beetle · Aug 6, 2021

Welcome back @raider980 , hope you had a good trip.

My vacation plans fell through, so I will take my turn after you.

+1 to Order.

vadalaz · Aug 7, 2021

raider980 said:
What is the plan for getting tourism going?

We planned to be violent in this game, so one rough outline could be something like this:

Go Factories - Schools and then start spamming units with 5-year-plan production: either start with Arties + Cavalry or go straight for planes and infantry. Team up with Washington and/or Hiawatha and go kill everyone in the middle of the map. Keep the best cities and capture great works and archaeologists, pillage everything in sight for gold and sell garbage cities to hit the gpt cap. Finish Aesthetics, build Museums with help from Cultural Centers, buy Hotels and Airports with help from Skyscrapers. Also focus on CSs and take control of World Congress. Win IG, research Internet, start a carnaval, win the game. Might have to consume some of Hiawatha's empire as well.

beetle · Aug 7, 2021

Thank you for that roadmap @vadalaz since, if left to my own devices, I would have picked Cultural Revolution before Five Year Plan and Dictatorship of the Proletariat before Iron Curtain. The path you describe is so much better!

Grendeldef · Aug 7, 2021

beetle said:
T152 Interesting, we already have WF 2nd place and its only 25% complete

Apparently I'm about to learn something new again - where can I see this? I've been so far building these annoyingly blind.

Spoiler :

Spoiler pix :

----

- worst health Frigate should at least move as Valencia has Galleass
- Barca has XB but Conqs are nowhere to be seen - might be a new patch entering the fields soon
- Spanish roads to Melbourne & Kiev are only partially pillaged so Isa may still attack from out-of-sight
- Melbourne shouldn't have any nearby units unless just disembarked. I've been having few graphics glitches with ghost units luckily they've been both Tercios
- Hiawatha in trying to settle east of Rio where the GA is parked atm
- citizens in most cities are arranged for the current build
- Forta is building PT mainly for kicks as only one CS wants it but as far as I could tell no one else was building it either

beetle · Aug 7, 2021

Grendeldef said:
Apparently I'm about to learn something new again - where can I see this? I've been so far building these annoyingly blind.

While underway, mouse-over production circle for any city contributing towards the project. The pop-up will tell you (1) how many hammers so far you have contributed, and the (2) percentage of project completed total. You need to do this after a few units have moved (i.e., not at the start of your turn) because otherwise the numbers displayed are actually for the previous turn. This UI makes it very easy to not waste too many hammers when you are just going for a second place. Trying to win remains sketchy.

My rule of thumb, which works less than half the time, is that if I have 2nd place and the project is less than half done — then I keep going. I think maybe what happened this game is that Washington/Pocatello figured they could not compete with Hiawatha. And I think maybe Hiawatha underestimated us because (1) we had an additional city contributing (as Workshops completed) almost every other turn, and (2) I was chopping. It might be an interesting experiment to see: What would have happened if I had gone all-out for WF from the start?

Grendeldef · Aug 7, 2021

Aaah, thx. It seems that in this case my problem isn't with the familiarity with the UI but reading comprehension

I thought you meant that we had put 2nd most hammers to the WF which would've meant that there was a list of AI's hammers put into the project or at minimum some indication of our ranking among the other stakhanovian (oh, how I hate English & German transliterations) civs. My initial thought was that these details might be presented by some mod/addon like InfoAddict or something similar though I gave a fair chance to myself missing something vital.

vadalaz · Aug 7, 2021

You can keep track of how much production the AIs are putting towards the World's Fair or other projects with the same mouse-over technique while the turn is rolling over. The project completion % updates in real time, so you can estimate how much everyone's contributing by quickly moving your mouse on and off the production icon as the AIs take their turns. Disabling quick movement makes it easier as the AI turns take longer then.

Grendeldef · Aug 8, 2021

Now we're getting to the core of my problem but I have to try this at some point. By the time WF/IG are built more often than not my playing goes hit Next Turn - do something else - come back & do the turn - and so on and I can't think of anything that'd make me give up quick combat/move. This slightly depends on the PC I'm playing with.

raider980 · Aug 8, 2021

It's T182 and Spain has Rifles. I'm pausing for a bit for lunch. @vadalaz mentioned peaceing out with her but I didn't see anyone else comment. She's willing to give us 10gpt for peace, that still keeps us well under our 20gpt per era rule so I may do it unless someone comments adamantly against it in the next hour or so.

Also, I'd like some comment on the OB discussion that beetle and I were having. Maria and Washington OB expired. I see no reason to renew them at this point, we have uncovered all their territory, we have no scouts in their territory, we don't need passage though their territory. Also, our OB with Hiawatha expires in a few turns. I think we should explicitly not renew that. He is sending missionaries through our territory with abandon and converting Spanish cities; and that is bad for us. @beetle I know you automatically renew OB's but in Hiawatha's case I think we should definitely not renew it, it hurts our game.

Edit. If make peace with Isabella and end OB from Hiawatha we could send a prophet to Spain. We have two CS quests for a GPr and we have the religious believe for cheaper and more powerful GPr, or is there a reason we are not buying prophets?

vadalaz · Aug 8, 2021

My opinion: keep fighting and don't renew OB.

raider980 · Aug 8, 2021

vadalaz said:
My opinion: keep fighting and don't renew OB.

I just posted an edit but you won't get an alert. If make peace with Isabella and end OB from Hiawatha we could send a prophet to Spain. We have two CS quests for a GPr and we have the religious believe for cheaper and more powerful GPr, or is there a reason we are not buying prophets?

vadalaz · Aug 8, 2021

Buying a prophet sounds good. Peace with Bella is also fine with me as long as both Kiev and Melbourne are liberated.

raider980 · Aug 8, 2021

T180. Fire at Melbourne.

Interim. Pacal rigs elections in Florence. We're no longer friends with Cape Town, but rigged elections so now we are again. Our influence surprisingly fell in Valleta. OB with Maria and Washy expire, don't see a reason to renew.

T181. Rio finishes PS > Bank. Belo finishes factory > Amphitheater (PS takes 19 turns). Spain has Rifles.

Interim. Pikeman killed by Rifle, Tercios.

T182. England adopts Order; renew OB with Liz because of her wise choice. Adopt 5-year plan. Vote against banning Citrus because the AI always votes for Arts Funding so don't need to worry about that passing.

T183.

Discover Electricity > Military Science. The good: we have three sources of Alum; The bad: one is under a Brazilwood camp, another a farm.
Arts funding passed, Citrus ban does not.

Interim. Iroquois goes Autocracy. GS born. Buy GPr, Florence and Monaco are happy about that.

T184. Sao Paulo finishes PS > Stable.

Interim. Maria attacks Sidon, we do not forgive, revoke PoP though.

T185. Belo finishes Amphi > Market. Curituba finishes factory > Baracks in 1T. Sao Paulo finishes Stable > Baracks in 1T. Belo finishes Market > PS.

T186.

Kill couple Conquistadors, capture GG.
Discover Jerusalem.
Renew Cargo Ship to Brasilia, Caravan to Manaus.
Hit Kiev with GPr. Kiev is pop 4 and GPr converts 2 citizens to Catholicism, but for some reason they don't show as adopting it. I thought when it got to at least half the citizens as there is population, it converts. So not sure what is going on.

Interim. Unidentified spy stole Acoustics. Are you freaking kidding me, Pacal builds PT one turn before we get it.

T187. Rio finishes Barracks > Cavalry. Sao Paulo finishes Barracks > Cav. Brasilia finishes PS > Privateer, we need one to capture Melbourne. Manaus finishes Observatory > Circus.

Interim. WLtKD in Fortaleza and Salvador somehow. Liz completes Louvre. Isa plundered our Cargo Ship Fortaleza to Brasilia. Influence in Ur decays.

T188. Salvador finishes something > PS.

Interim. Hiawatha asks to renew OB; no way dude, your free pass for your missionaries is over. Hiawatha DoW Maria.

T189. Take shot at Spanish Galleass, (scratch that, its a Caravel) that plundered our CS.

Interim. Liz likes our proposal? Liz denounces Hiawatha. No longer Ally with Ur.

Notes.

Kiev just built a fishing boat so we should move the Frigate so Kiev can get Whales which a few of our cities desire for WLtKD.
I couldn't take Melbourne so we're still at war. Therefore the GPr can't get to Spain so he's heading to Riga.
I upgraded several XB to Gats because we were getting overrun by Rifles, Tercios and Conqs. Two of the Gats have Logistics and Range and another just got an upgrade and can get Logistics. They are all in defensive mode right now. We've got two Cavalry being built, one Privateer and Rifles are online too. So we should be able to go on offense and liberate Melbourne soon. But don't let that lone XB in the T190 South screenshot fool you, Isabella has Rifles/Tercios/Conqs hiding in the shadows.
I assumed we were saving all those GArtists for Carnivalae endgame when we get some decent tourism so I left them all where they were. Also a GWr I didn't know what to do with so I left him there too.
Kiev still isn't showing as converted to our religion so not sure if its a bug or what.

Spoiler T190 North :

Spoiler T190 South :

Grendeldef · Aug 9, 2021

raider980 said:
couldn't take Melbourne so we're still at war.

What happened? I just played from T180 in 4 different ways taking Melbourne 3x @T182 and once T183 without being threatened in any way. Isa throws a mix of a Rifle/a Lancer/3 Tercios/2 Conqs/a Pike but can't prevent capping or kill anything excluding suicides.

------

5th play through with pix. Apparently I didn't take a pic on T181 before moving so the T181 start pic is from autosave later but as far as I can tell Isa didn't change her pose for the pic

Spoiler T180-T182 :

raider980 · Aug 9, 2021

I just suck at combat. I didn't try from T180 because it didn't look like our units could get into position. Then I figured she had rifles so I guess I didn't try. By T182 she has moved more units up. Funny thing though it doesn't even look like she's attacking your units. She killed a Pike after T181 when I was playing and kept hitting our units every turn.

beetle · Aug 9, 2021

I don’t understand, why all the Lumber Mills? Farms are better and that is not even counting the chops, which are also very nice. Except on Tundra, Lumber Mills are a waste of Worker time and a tile that will hardly every be worked.

Do people prefer more white space / longer format with these posts? No more information this time than has been my habit to provide, but it sure looks like more! Is it easier to parse with this sort of styling?

T190
- toggle some CS PoP
- give Pocatello OB, Scout keeps exploring
- put Barracks or Armory ahead in queues for cities building units
- spend gold upgrading most units (but not XB)
- sending GPr towards Sidon and Kathmandu for conversion quests
T191
- send TR to Pacal
- sign OB w/ Pacal
T192
- Whales from Kiev for WLtK x3
- Fortaleza trying to hard build Brandenburg Gate (just 8 turns)
T193
- sign DOF w/ Elizabeth
- do not forgive Hiawatha for bullying CS
- meet Singapore
- Scout levels up and retreats to heal
- trade Hiawatha Cocoa for Furs
T194
- Shoshone adopts Autocracy
- Maya adopt Freedom
- another GG born
- trade Washington Aluminum for Marble
T195
- agree to RA w/ England
- Isabella offering up lux, resources, and 21gpt for peace (declined, of course)
- renew lux trades with Monty and Washington
- trade Hiawatha Coal for Silk
- coup (84%) in Cape Town successful
T196
- Pocatello beats us to Brandenburg Gate by four turns
- win CS elections in Cape Town and Florence
- move Spy to Sidon and Diplomat to Onondaga
- food Cargo Ship from Brazil to Fortaleza
- Rio starts on Garden
- Steam Power researched, start on Railroad
T197
- loose ally status w/ Riga, but we have gold enough to get her back whenever we want (but I figures she can use a bit of break, as the city was in the yellow)
- buy Truffles from Washington for 9 gpt
T198
- sell Maria Copper for 7 gpt
- decline Pacal’s invite to DOW Maria
- do not forgive Washington for bullying CS; upgrade last XB
- trade Hiawatha Salt for Historical Landmark vote (which we would do anyway)
T199
- loose a Gat to Conquistador out of the fog
- GS born
- sell Pachacuti Copper for 7gpt
- trade Maria OB, sign DOF, loan her gold, and then sign RA
- trade OB w/ Washington and Monty
- send food Cargo Ship to Brasilia
- buy two Inquisitors while they are still relatively cheap
- use GS for Biology (our one Industrial bulb, yes?), we have 3x oil, entering Modern Era
- send diplomat to Moson Kahni
T200 interstitial: loose a Calvary which was recklessly close to Melbourne (since I was sure I was going to Liberate it on T199); Railroad researched

I am so embarrassed to not be able to take Melbourne on my round of turns. I thought it would be so easy that I did not really make it a priority…

Before, I was fine with peace after liberating Melbourne. Now I think we should stay at war with Spain until we have Madrid.

Only England is Order, so Fortaleza can probably safely hard build Kremlin. Somewhat to my surprise, we are still getting good trades from civs with rival Ideologies. I don’t think we are actually in danger of our being converted, but I purchased the Inquisitors because I presume we will the end the game with one or two rival Holy Cities under our control, and they could help guard Archeology sites, even if we trade OB with Hiawatha. Iroquois TR Caravans remain the most profitable, but I am strongly of the opinion that we should be spreading them out, as that really helps with diplomacy.

In screenshot, GG are stacked with our two Gats that have Logistics and Range. Fortaleza needs a Work Boat, sorry to have missed that. GW/GA are sitting on most of our Archeology sites. Also, we do not have our GMu Guild yet. Presumably Rio for that?

Spoiler screenshot :

Cutthroat Culture

Emperor

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Trancerelic & coffeeholic

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Trancerelic & coffeeholic

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Trancerelic & coffeeholic

King

Emperor

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King

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Trancerelic & coffeeholic

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