Armed Zealots

[Nizef]

My thinking was exactly what Gren outlined: Piety opener and then Organized religion. I took the Tradition opener for the border growth and the +3 cpt but we obviously need a Monument as well.

 

[beetle]

@Nizef you have been so busy elsewhere on these forums, I think you missed your turn in A Storm of Swords.

 

[Nizef]

@Nizef you have been so busy elsewhere on these forums, I think you missed your turn in A Storm of Swords.

I was unsure whether to play until the end of t9 or t10. So Raider, please go ahead and continue from the start of t10 as already available.

EDIT: Engage brain before touching the keyboard: I will play my turn in SoS asap.

 

[Grendeldef]

Again, far from a major issue but it looks better if the transition saves are from Tx0 (yeah, I know I'm a weirdo but I tend have some saves from interesting games). Obviously, there're situations where Tx9 or Tx1 are valid options as well.

 

[raider980]

Uncovering more of the map may alter our thinking on expos.

T10. Scouting. first to meet Budapest; Militaristic, Irrational with Winged Hussar.

T11. Meet Quebec City; Maritime Irrational. Pop ruin! change to work Incense; same time to finish shrine and more food.

T12. Scouting.

T13. Culture ruin! We find the east coast not too far from Byzantium, mountains and yes, Silver, nearby. Switch to fish for more food and same build time.

T14. Shrine done, start Monument. Open Piety.

T15. See 2 more CS borders.

T16. Discover Mining, start Animal Husbandry, maybe horses will help with expo locations. First to meet Kyzyl; Cultural, Neutral. Woo hoo, first to meet Kathmandu, 8 faith; Religious, Neutral. Crosses fingers no one gets a pantheon in the interim.

T17. First pantheon! Religious Idols. Meet William of the Netherlands, a nice neighbor, although he's pretty far away, just found his scout. Another CS we're first to meet, Ormus; Maritime, Neutral.

T18. Ruin; a crudely drawn map, it does show a good deal of territory in the opposite direction I am heading so that's good.

Interim. William asks for an embassy for 1gpt. I mean to say no because of our rules but mistakenly hit Accept. I was going to reload but I go look at the rules and I don't see this forbidden in the latest incarnation so I continue.

T19. Uh oh, we meet our friendly neighbor Genghis Kahn. Why does he always call me sausage man?

Spoiler T20 North :

Spoiler T20 South :

Thoughts.

• We appear to be on a peninsula with our nearest neighbors quite a distance away toward the main land mass. There's lots of space for cities; but not that many luxuries, and they're spaced out in a way that makes it hard to pick city spots (at least for me). We've uncovered two Silver near the east coast, great for our pantheon.
• Monument is finished. I debated starting a settler before the monument but doing that on T14 sounded too early to me. Probably start settler now even though its only 5 turns to pop 4 since having pop 4 won't make that much difference in build time. But I'll leave that to you all since someone can probably calculate it.
• I debated buying the wheat for better production but it was 50g.
• Genghis as our neighbor without the ability to bribe him to attack someone else is going to be interesting. Luckily, he's not that close.
• We met William's scout coming from the east between Kyzyl and Mongolia
• Even though I wasn't quite sure where we ended up with the discussion about stealing workers from CS, I was hanging around Budapest to see it were possible but haven't seen any yet.

 

[Grendeldef]

That looks pretty good, actually and since we're still the only one with a pantheon I think it's safe to assume that Haile & Boudicca are not present in the game and we've a decent chance of a decent religion. I see no reason to divert from the 'plan' yet.
3rd city by the river to get southern Silver, 4th by eastern Gems, coastal if possible & 5th on the swamp north of Marble and that even leaves 2 solid coastal spot in the north and one by Truffels. I'd also build a Scout or a Warrior before the Settler - eyes on the riverside & Kyzyl would be useful and one unit camping Genghis to DoW asap a Worker is available.

If Genghis will drop that city to close where he is now he'll take Kyzyl eventually and I wouldn't let him settle north of Kyzyl. Would be nice to block others from the northern CSs but that may be tricky and speaking of the CSs in the north - I'd camp that Ormus Cotton for a Worker. Budapest is already attacked by Barbs and has 2 camps nearby so the camp-q is only a matter of time and Ormus' land looks better in case of capping it.

 

[beetle]

Surveying the situation, I don't understand why the CS we anticipate barb quest from do not already have PoP? Also our Warrior still has zero XP. That barb camp should have been punched at least once.

• T020 I give PoP to all the CS, not just the since one near camps, since they might post easy quests at any time. Get LoS on Karakorum, and it looks like we might have a worker soon; buy hill for Constantinople, as that gets Settler production down to a respectable 10 turns
• T021 Genghis settles Turfan close to Karakorum, so an immediate Worker steal is too dangerous; Warrior N hits camp
• T022 N barb camp spawns, so I will have to be careful leveling up Warrior; Scout S moving N around Turfan as Salt tile is where his Worker is likely to go
• T023 adopt Organize Religion; AH done and plenty of horses near us, but none in cap; start Archery
• T024 Scout N punches barb camp while Warrior fortifies
• T025 Scout S takes Worker from Genghis
• T026 Scout S survives (just barely) and we have our first Worker and our first war
• T027 barb camp spawns Archer, and now things are hairy, but Warrior is at full health, so he hits camp again
• T028 Scout took the Archer shot, so he backs off S; Worker trying to find way home
• T029 Warrior takes an arrow, so backs off E, since I figure he can still kill a barb after Ormus shoots it

T030 Settler is out and @vadalaz gets to pick next production and next research too.

 

[vadalaz]

I'll skip my turns as I still have more map knowledge than the current situation reveals. Gren, you're up.

 

[Grendeldef]

Cool, but at this early in the Midsummer morning when half the country is in coma and the rest way worse I'll blame lack of coffee as usual for sloppy play. Anyway, not much can happen in 10 turns.

T30

- Consta starts Archer
- spotted Ormus Worker

T31

- Met Nebby near Kyzyl

T32

- Adrianople founded
- stole Ormus Worker after a short chase accompanied by a barb warrior

T34

- Adri Worker retreats to northern Sheep
- Worker from Genghis but this is getting unhealthy for a Scout

T35-T38 barb dodging & hunting

T39

- Bronze Working
- Adrianople starts Granary for a turn
- Consta has Iron & Ormus has, too
- barb camp near Kathmandu

***

- Adri is ready for Settlers
- Ormus has Iron from which stealing is at least safer, there's a Catapult in the city
- apart from the Archer barbs are going for Budapest. I didn't clear it because there's no q or a Worker in it
- haven't looked at the Kathmandu camp yet in hope of them starting with Kathmandu instead of us
- there's at least 1 barb camp south of us - perhaps in north part of the fog
- due to temporary lack of happiness I'd kick out another Settler in Consta to get 2 expas to south of us in a reansonable time. The 5th city can be the Marble one as it's safe & secure - we might even get that Marble before that
- Spearman or two will be needed in the south shortly

 

[vadalaz]

Okay, it seems my extra bit of map info doesn't matter anymore, so I can play now. Let's keep this turn order for the rest of the game, Gren 4th and me 5th.

 

[Grendeldef]

I can live with that & good luck.

 

[vadalaz]

T40:
- Bought another Gold tile in Adrianople, started Settler.
- Constantinople started Settler as well
- SP: Religious Tolerance

Interim: Stonehenge goes, Kathmandu targets a barb camp.

T41-42: Quebec city desires a trade route

T43:
- Found El Dorado.
- Budapest targets a barb camp, I clear it immediately as it's just spawned another brute.
- Sold Gold to William for 7 gpt, we're at +9 net gpt from AIs now.
- Constantinople's borders will grow to Marble next

Interim: ToA goes (William), Kyzyl targets a barb camp.

T44:
- Moved workers to chop some forests and speed up settler production

T45:
- Kathmandu's camp has a worker in it

T46:
- Barb brute steals Budapest's worker. I'll try to catch it.

Interim: Quebec targets a camp.

T47:
- Barb and the worker move in the wrong direction
- Found the lands of Babylon which is a Budapest quest.
- Finished Calendar, started Masonry.

Interim: Kyzyl and Mongolia allies. Kyzyl and Mongolia no longer allies. Budapest becomes our ally.

T48:
- Settler finished in Constantinople, started Spearman. We're surrounded by barb camps.
- Returned a worker to Budapest, we're up to 130 influence.
- Made peace with Kyzyl.

T49: Constantinople's borders grew to the tile on which I chopped the forest instead of Marble, but now it's going for the Marble again

Screen:

Spoiler :

@Nizef is up. Notes:

- We have a spare copy of Gold and we're at +8gpt from AIs with a limit of 10. One option is to sell the Gold to Nebby for 2gpt and get positive diplo with him for a potential DoF
- I'm almost certain that's a barb spearman on the radared tile, there are also units on the sheep and Gems a few tiles south of it. Camp next to El Dorado is a hand-axe if I remember correctly
- Lots of options for expos. Secure the Truffles first and send a caravan to Babylon?

 

[Grendeldef]

This is going fast - I'm still in my morning coffee session though that isn't saying much necessarily.

Babs are going Honor so I'd be a bit cautious since we don't have much units nor does the neighbourhood look easily defensible. Also there's is a question about the peace deals which we aren't gonna negotiate and with a healthy number of small cities the AI is gonna demand one (or more) for quite a while. Genghis seems to have 6(?) Horse tile in Karakorum & 3 more in Turfan so Horsemen are going start running around shortly so unless we can ally Kyzyl I wouldn't settle Truffels now - not closer than the coastal/mountain hill 3 hexes away anyway.

I'd put the 3rd city riverside by the Bison or by the Horses and 4th by Skilldorado/camp but that Settler will need an escort anyway. 5th by the Marble and in a normal game 6th (or 3/4/5th) very defensive one by mountain/Gems/Sheep in the south before Genghis goes there. The Marble/Marsh city has both food & hammers available from the get go so it's not needed immeadiately for Library building.

- Since we took Religious Tolerance instead of Oligarchy are we going for full Piety next? We'll get a Prophet in few turns after that camp clearing.
- Ormus' Iron looks like a place for Worker harvesting.
- I'm genuinely surprised Genghis allying Kyzyl even if purely by accident

 

[Nizef]

Let´s see here now:
t50 Met Sidon (Hostile of course, Ballistas) and killed barbs.
t52 1st religion went (Catholisism, Religious Centers/Pilgrimage). Budapest gave us a Spearman so I started a Caravan in the capital instead.
t53 Cleared the barb camp for Kathmandu. I kept the Worker inside the camp for ourselves. Settler done in Adrianople and I start on one more.
t55-57 A lot of nasty traffic slowing down the Settlers.
t58 2nd religion founded (Protestantism, Cathedrals/Interfaith Dialogue).
t59 One Settler reached his destination and you can found a city next turn. I chose the coastal/mountain using the same logic Gren did.

Other things: There is an unguarded Settler six tiles S of Adrianople. In my opinoin it should move E across the river and settle. That would give us El Dorado, Silver, Stone and Horses. We are over 200 faith and should be able to found a religion very soon.

 

[vadalaz]

Please do finish the spearman in Constantinople, it's only 3 hammers and production already put towards it will start decaying after turn 62.

For an eventual northern expo (6th city I'd imagine), what do you guys think about the grassland stone tile? Picks up 3 fish, 2 more stones, 2 Gold, Wheat, Cattle, Horses and Iron, eligible for both Stoneworks and Circus. Awful tiles in the first ring but with extra culture from Gold the borders should grow fairly quickly.

Non-coastal alternative: riverside Cattle, picks up most of those tiles except the Fish obviously. Gets to work Marble and is less of a nightmare to develop fast.

Looks like a good time to discuss religion. For convenience, here are the beliefs already taken by the AIs:

Pantheons:
- Culture from plantations
- 10% faster growth
- Food from camps
- Culture from pastures
- Faith from quarries

Founder:
- Faith from cities following this religion
- Science when spreading with a missionary/prophet

Follower:
- Cathedrals
- 2 happiness from Temples

No Reformation or Enhancer beliefs have been taken yet.

Pagodas/Mosques/Sacred Sites is the most obvious option, but our faith per turn is on the low side for that. And we need many more cities for it to be truly impactful.

 

[beetle]

I'll skip my turns as I still have more map knowledge than the current situation reveals. Gren, you're up.

Lol, @vadalaz letting us know as gently as possible that he unlogged more of the map in 20 turns than we did in 30!

@Grendeldef did you DOW Ormus for the worker? I cannot tell from your write-up. DOWing CS for Workers is against our agreed protocol.

 

[Grendeldef]

Before doing anything else I'd do white peace with Genghis as he seems to be willing. He won't be after settling next city is my guess. Settling the Truffles where the Settler is now screws my original city planning anyway. Now the only place for Skilldorado city is on the camp which pushes the riverside (3rd) city away from both of my locations and away from the Silver and/or Skilldorado. An optional place is riverside grass 2 hexes away from BIson/Horses/Skill but that still leaves the peninsula tip vulnerable. I'd move that other Settler towards that other Gem, kick out another Settler in Consta for that Marble since we'll be late for NC anyway.

For religion Tithe & Pagodas for starters and whatever was planned for bonus or if those aren't available Earth Mother for example. Stone bloody Circles is already taken.

Btw, what's the target VC? Or do we go with flow while filling Piety and sort things out with SBs.

 

[raider980]

Wow, so much has happened in less than 24 hours. Its already my turn again. And I get to found a city!

I don't understand why the CS we anticipate barb quest from do not already have PoP? Also our Warrior still has zero XP. That barb camp should have been punched at least once.

PoP slipped my mind. But I wouldn't have made one with Budapest anyway since their Militaristic and I was planning on stealing a worker from them. Like Gren I assumed from you alls last conversation that stealing a worker from a CS was ok as long as you didn't make peace with it. As far as attacking the barb camp with a warrior simply for xp, not something I've ever thought of doing, I'm always worried about my units getting too injured, but I guess I'll have to try it.

The below quotes are for my own information regarding discussions of city locations. I haven't opened the map yet to look at where we are at globally.

I'd put the 3rd city riverside by the Bison or by the Horses and 4th by Skilldorado/camp but that Settler will need an escort anyway. 5th by the Marble and in a normal game 6th (or 3/4/5th) very defensive one by mountain/Gems/Sheep in the south before Genghis goes there. The Marble/Marsh city has both food & hammers available from the get go so it's not needed immeadiately for Library building.

One Settler reached his destination and you can found a city next turn. I chose the coastal/mountain using the same logic Gren did.

There is an unguarded Settler six tiles S of Adrianople. In my opinoin it should move E across the river and settle. That would give us El Dorado, Silver, Stone and Horses.

For an eventual northern expo (6th city I'd imagine), what do you guys think about the grassland stone tile? Picks up 3 fish, 2 more stones, 2 Gold, Wheat, Cattle, Horses and Iron, eligible for both Stoneworks and Circus. Awful tiles in the first ring but with extra culture from Gold the borders should grow fairly quickly.

Non-coastal alternative: riverside Cattle, picks up most of those tiles except the Fish obviously. Gets to work Marble and is less of a nightmare to develop fast.

Settling the Truffles where the Settler is now screws my original city planning anyway. Now the only place for Skilldorado city is on the camp which pushes the riverside (3rd) city away from both of my locations and away from the Silver and/or Skilldorado. An optional place is riverside grass 2 hexes away from BIson/Horses/Skill but that still leaves the peninsula tip vulnerable. I'd move that other Settler towards that other Gem, kick out another Settler in Consta for that Marble since we'll be late for NC anyway.

Things to do this round:

Please do finish the spearman in Constantinople, it's only 3 hammers and production already put towards it will start decaying after turn 62.

Before doing anything else I'd do white peace with Genghis as he seems to be willing.

 

[beetle]

@raider980 should the GPr pop the same turn (or just before) you are planting a Settler, settle first, then found. Otherwise the new city will not get the pantheon benefit. Might not matter, but it is one of those little details which I find easy to forget.

Before doing anything else I'd do white peace with Genghis as he seems to be willing.

Just please double check that Genghis is really offering White Peace. I would expect that what he really thinks is fair is all our expos for peace.

But I wouldn't have made one with Budapest anyway since their Militaristic and I was planning on stealing a worker from them.

That makes no sense as Militaristic CS make fine allies.

Like Gren I assumed from you alls last conversation that stealing a worker from a CS was ok as long as you didn't make peace with it.

Yes, that is what we agreed to. It is still the case that any CS ally is more valuable than a couple Workers. I had presumed that our okay-to-DOW-CS-if-we-never-make-peace was a Plan B in case we didn’t find an AI to farm for Workers. We have an AI to farm for Workers. IMHO further CS DOWs only serve to weaken our game. I acknowledge that my reasoning here was not articulated in the pre-game discussion.

As far as attacking the barb camp with a warrior simply for xp, not something I've ever thought of doing, I'm always worried about my units getting too injured, but I guess I'll have to try it.

IMHO any unit not built at a city with an Armory should level up on barbs. Early Scouts need to be Scouting and avoiding barbs. But after you have swept for Ruins, training them up with +2 vision makes them useful all game long — and even accounting for the turns spent healing — lets them unfog the map so much faster. Also, before Optics and Open Borders, your Scouts will be at significant risk if they cannot embark. So they should not get too far from home.

Your starting Warrior especially needs Cover. And there is no opportunity cost for taking the time for that, since the Warrior (unlike your Scouts) should be staying near your home territory (protecting Workers and escorting Setters).

OTOH, loosing your starting Warrior is actually pretty devastating because it paints a huge bullseye on you. If you think the deity AIs are mean, see what happens if you loose your starting Warrior and don’t already have another melee unit online!

 

[raider980]

So Reformation is available. If we take a Reformation before getting a religion it will still let us pick one when we found the religion right? I read a discussion somewhere on Civfanatics where someone said they did that and then it wouldn't let them pick a Reformation. Speaking of reformation, which one? I see sacred sites mentioned above but with doubts. I'm not familiar with reformations to really say which are good and which are not.

Edit. I guess it’s between Glory of God, Jesuit Education and if we’re going CV Sacred Sites.

Edit 2. Which gets us more science, city with observatory or river city even though we can’t bulb scientists that has jungle with maybe a late academy. Thinking about that other settler.

That makes no sense as Militaristic CS make fine allies.

I'd rather have Maritime or Mercantile so that's why I usually try to steal from Militaristic or Faith. I'm sure I'm undervaluing the free unit though.