Diety AI gets FREE TECHS - this is just over the line

lordsurya08

lordsurya08

class-A procrastinator
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I read somewhere that on Diety, the AI starts off with Mining, AH, The Wheel, and Pottery. If so, this is just crossing the limit. I am willing to give the AI production bonuses and stuff like that but free techs just seems so wrong to me.

Can somebody confirm this is true? As I type I am hunting through the XMLs to see if I can disable this free tech thing...

EDIT: I have found them in the Civ5HandicapInfos under the GameInfo file:
<HandicapInfo_AIFreeTechs>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_KING</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_POTTERY</TechType>
</Row>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_EMPEROR</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY</TechType>
</Row>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_EMPEROR</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_POTTERY</TechType>
</Row>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_IMMORTAL</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_MINING</TechType>
</Row>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_IMMORTAL</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY</TechType>
</Row>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_IMMORTAL</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_POTTERY</TechType>
</Row>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_DEITY</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_MINING</TechType>
</Row>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_DEITY</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY</TechType>
</Row>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_DEITY</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_THE_WHEEL</TechType>
</Row>
<Row>
<HandicapType>HANDICAP_DEITY</HandicapType>
<TechType>TECH_POTTERY</TechType>
</Row>
</HandicapInfo_AIFreeTechs>
_________________________
As you can see at King the AI gets pottery for free. The number of free techs goes up as difficulty goes up.

This seems to apply for Ancient starts. I'm not sure what happens for classical starts (I play classical). WTCMB, I am deliberating whether or not to simply delete these lines (after creating a backup file of course...)

Alternatively, I could change everything here to "HANDICAP_DIETY" and play on Immortal, as I usually do...
 
On one hand I agree it's silly that before they plant a settler they have these techs.

On the other hand they need the bonuses to compete.

So IDK. I play on Immortal as well and it's always annoying to visually see their insane bonuses with improvements etc that they start off with (techs + worker).
 
You seem to have a really weird allergy to this one particular AI bonus. Why's it okay for them to get a bonus to science output, but starting with pottery is the end of the world?
 
I dunno, Gort. It's a psychological thing that I can't justify, but I hate nonetheless. I am fine with giving the AI a tech boost, because I know I can use my improved city placement skills to build better cities that grow faster and neutralize their science bonus. When they start with free tech, however, it rattles me for some reason...
 
Gort said:
You seem to have a really weird allergy to this one particular AI bonus. Why's it okay for them to get a bonus to science output, but starting with pottery is the end of the world?
Click to expand...

I can't speak for the OP, but I find flat starting bonuses to be far more annoying than percentile bonuses.

IMO percentile bonuses work better for dealing with AI incompetency. Oh, the AI can't work tiles properly? Give it +20% production. They don't grow quickly enough? Give it +20% food. Strangely, the aspect of the game where the AI needs this the most - combat - there are no bonuses given to the AI! This is actually something I hope to integrate into my mod if I can figure out how.

All flat bonuses do is create a gap for a player to overcome. If that gap is overcome then clearly the percentile bonuses you gave the AI aren't enough because the player not only kept pace with the AI, but surpassed it with the additional gap.

It's also annoying to see the AI start with several more units (cities) on higher levels because this is a game about starting a civilization and growing it from scratch. You would think this meant all civilizations start with 1 city. That's just simply not the case, which I find annoying.

So, to sum up my position I think that percentile bonuses work far better than flat ones when dealing with AI deficiencies.

Of course, that's just me. Everyone is free to disagree if they like.
 
JohnnyW said:
I can't speak for the OP, but I find flat starting bonuses to be far more annoying than percentile bonuses.

IMO percentile bonuses work better for dealing with AI incompetency. Oh, the AI can't work tiles properly? Give it +20% production. They don't grow quickly enough? Give it +20% food. Strangely, the aspect of the game where the AI needs this the most - combat - there are no bonuses given to the AI! This is actually something I hope to integrate into my mod if I can figure out how.

All flat bonuses do is create a gap for a player to overcome. If that gap is overcome then clearly the percentile bonuses you gave the AI aren't enough because the player not only kept pace with the AI, but surpassed it with the additional gap.

It's also annoying to see the AI start with several more units (cities) on higher levels because this is a game about starting a civilization and growing it from scratch. You would think this meant all civilizations start with 1 city. That's just simply not the case, which I find annoying.

So, to sum up my position I think that percentile bonuses work far better than flat ones when dealing with AI deficiencies.

Of course, that's just me. Everyone is free to disagree if they like.
Click to expand...

You summed it up perfectly. Exactly what I meant to say :)
 
It makes me chuckle to see people who insist on playing the ridiculous difficulty levels squabbling about what bonuses the AI should and shouldn't get. Dunno why? It just seems silly - if you don't like it, don't play at that difficulty level?
 
Perhaps they want to play a game that isn't over before 100 turns? So rather then fight longbowmen with tanks, you want the AI to be able to keep up. However by gifting them free techs, it gives them an unnecessary advantage early on when usually the AI has enough at that stage. Perhaps gifting them a cheap tech every era would have been better then right off the bat, or as stated a percentage based bonus so that as the game progresses so does their bonus.
 
Horizons said:
It makes me chuckle to see people who insist on playing the ridiculous difficulty levels squabbling about what bonuses the AI should and shouldn't get. Dunno why? It just seems silly - if you don't like it, don't play at that difficulty level?
Click to expand...

It makes me chuckle that you feel the need to tell people what level to (not) play when you have not grasped the specifics of this conversation.

Also, what makes the difficulty level ridiculous? The bonuses the AI gets at higher levels, or the glaringly umitigated incompetence at lower levels? I find everything beneath Immortal too easy, so I will continue to play at what level I choose thank you.
 
I agree that this is not optimal. If the AI choose to go for any early wonders it will get it independently of how good start a human player gets. I dont think I ever got great library on deity... or the oracle either, sometimes stonehenge but then I always feel very lucky...
 
Horizons said:
It makes me chuckle to see people who insist on playing the ridiculous difficulty levels squabbling about what bonuses the AI should and shouldn't get. Dunno why? It just seems silly - if you don't like it, don't play at that difficulty level?
Click to expand...
I agree with this too.

Some of these people seem to think that if the AI could be made smarter, and could learn to make better decisions in planning and combat, it wouldn't need such ridiculous bonuses. Dream on, because Firaxis certainly hasn't figured out how to make that happen.

I'll admit that I often play at a difficulty level one step below what I'm capable of, just to counteract the AI bonuses. Sure it's a little easier game, but less frustrating while still a challenge. I'll also agree that it isn't so easy programming an AI to where it doesn't need bonuses. It is what it is.
 
Horizons said:
It makes me chuckle to see people who insist on playing the ridiculous difficulty levels squabbling about what bonuses the AI should and shouldn't get. Dunno why? It just seems silly - if you don't like it, don't play at that difficulty level?
Click to expand...

Silly? Only if you choose not to think about it.

Difficulty can be increased via ALL KINDS of bonuses or AI tendencies:

1. Starting techs
2. Less turns to make improvements
3. Starting units
4. Cheaper techs/buildings/units
5. All AI biased against human
6. Actually varying starts based on difficulty
7. Making human things more expensive
8. Giving the AI a straight str boost on its units

etc etc.

So why is it "silly" to argue which of these (and more) is most appropriate to give to a high level AI? It isn't. Depending on what the devs choose, game outcomes will be decided less or more by SHEER CHANCE as opposed to HOW THE PLAYER PLAYS, and some bonuses give the player more viable options than other bonuses.

That said, AI bonus starting techs have a big precedent: they've had them for many many many years in the civ franchise (the extra starting settler isn't new to civ V either...if anything civ V is a little too quick to just throw features in without thinking about why). AI starting tech bonus is actually one of the more benign bonuses, too! Their extra settler + massive production bonus coupled with massive :) bonus is what really makes them obnoxious on deity. It's also one of the least fun things about deity: literally every tile in an AIs borders will be a unit! The human CAN'T do that and have money. Ever. There's nothing so immersion breaking as a "feature" that allows opposition to FLAGRANTLY do something the human can NEVER do. However, this adds insult to injury, too: it is incredibly tedious to keep killing all of those units over and over until your rate of killing finally gets > AI production. Repeating a pattern over and over again was supposed to be FUN?

What were they thinking?! What are YOU thinking in asserting which bonuses is a silly concept?!!

However OP complaining about starting techs as opposed to other bonuses IS silly :p. That's one of its smallest advantages and one of the advantages that LEAST limits human strategy!
 
I do find it odd that people play at difficulty levels and then try to edit them down. I suppose its no big deal since its a game and you should play it however you find it fun. Just seems counter intuitive. Also, by modding this stuff, do you still consider yourself a deity player?
 
TheMeInTeam said:
Silly? Only if you choose not to think about it.

Difficulty can be increased via ALL KINDS of bonuses or AI tendencies:

1. Starting techs
2. Less turns to make improvements
3. Starting units
4. Cheaper techs/buildings/units
5. All AI biased against human
6. Actually varying starts based on difficulty
7. Making human things more expensive
8. Giving the AI a straight str boost on its units

etc etc.

So why is it "silly" to argue which of these (and more) is most appropriate to give to a high level AI? It isn't. Depending on what the devs choose, game outcomes will be decided less or more by SHEER CHANCE as opposed to HOW THE PLAYER PLAYS, and some bonuses give the player more viable options than other bonuses.

That said, AI bonus starting techs have a big precedent: they've had them for many many many years in the civ franchise (the extra starting settler isn't new to civ V either...if anything civ V is a little too quick to just throw features in without thinking about why). AI starting tech bonus is actually one of the more benign bonuses, too! Their extra settler + massive production bonus coupled with massive :) bonus is what really makes them obnoxious on deity. It's also one of the least fun things about deity: literally every tile in an AIs borders will be a unit! The human CAN'T do that and have money. Ever. There's nothing so immersion breaking as a "feature" that allows opposition to FLAGRANTLY do something the human can NEVER do. However, this adds insult to injury, too: it is incredibly tedious to keep killing all of those units over and over until your rate of killing finally gets > AI production. Repeating a pattern over and over again was supposed to be FUN?

What were they thinking?! What are YOU thinking in asserting which bonuses is a silly concept?!!

However OP complaining about starting techs as opposed to other bonuses IS silly :p. That's one of its smallest advantages and one of the advantages that LEAST limits human strategy!
Click to expand...

I remember reading a few months a long list of the bonuses that the ai gets on different difficulties. iirc, the biggest one that they DON'T get is bonus science (or reduced science required per tech). It seems to me that something like this, especially on immortal/deity, could go a long way to preventing the human from attaining tech dominance at the highest levels, keeping the ai competitive even later in the game.
 
CIV gave bonus techs to AIs on higher difficulty settings.

Why should CiV be different?
 
but the AI is nothing in settler!
 
Yzman said:
Also, by modding this stuff, do you still consider yourself a deity player?
Click to expand...
I should point out that Modders do extensive "damages" to the source material for good reasons; one of which - gameplay balance within the scope of *their* interpretation of optimal choices to reach specific goals.
I'd even gamble that they have enough "play experience" to design valid challenges beyond or slightly fair to any difficulty levels, including Deity.
 
It's deity, it supposed to be hard and dumb. What's the point of complaining about deity.

U should be complaining about inadequates of the AI.
 
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