If you read carefully you will see that that is the basis for much of the discussion.
Diety AI gets FREE TECHS - this is just over the line
- Thread starter lordsurya08
- Start date
If you read carefully you will see that that is the basis for much of the discussion.
*yawn*
You boys can discuss ways to make DEITY, the difficulty level that is MEANT TO BE IMPOSSIBLE (or near-to) less difficult so that you can feel better about yourselves beating a Deity AI ... but I call BS and suggest that this is a total waste of time and energy.
Moderator Action: Please don't troll other people.
Over and out
You boys can discuss ways to make DEITY, the difficulty level that is MEANT TO BE IMPOSSIBLE (or near-to) less difficult so that you can feel better about yourselves beating a Deity AI ... but I call BS and suggest that this is a total waste of time and energy.
Moderator Action: Please don't troll other people.
Over and out
*yawn*
You boys can discuss ways to make DEITY, the difficulty level that is MEANT TO BE IMPOSSIBLE (or near-to) less difficult so that you can feel better about yourselves beating a Deity AI ... but I call BS and suggest that this is a total waste of time and energy.
Over and out
First, there is no need to be so dismissive by typing out a yawn.
Second, we are not discussing making deity easier; you simply don't understand what we are discussing. I find it rather irritating that you come into this discussion, act like you know everything, dismiss other people's posts and then say that you're done with the topic. You've contributed nothing to the thread other then conveying your lack of understanding.
We are discussing why flat bonuses to AI are annoying and in some cases bad design. Several of us feel that percentile bonuses would be a better way to address AI shortcomings - percentiles that you could increase to make up for a reduction/removal of flat bonuses.
It bothers me more that Deity AIs (in civ4 too) start with a second settler.
That said, neither really bother me much at all, so I'm not really saying much.
The problem with flat bonuses like these is they make the transitions between difficulties less consistent and actually alter the nature of the game to the point where entirely different strategies are needed (or obsoleted).
I prefer there to be smoother changes between the levels. This is why I always oppose the fairly common suggestion of making the AI become "smarter" when increasing difficulty level.
That said, neither really bother me much at all, so I'm not really saying much.
The problem with flat bonuses like these is they make the transitions between difficulties less consistent and actually alter the nature of the game to the point where entirely different strategies are needed (or obsoleted).
I prefer there to be smoother changes between the levels. This is why I always oppose the fairly common suggestion of making the AI become "smarter" when increasing difficulty level.
Airey
Prince
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- Feb 9, 2008
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- 509
Wouldn't it be more useful if people can put heads together and come up with strategies to leverage vs Deity rather than discussing what bonuses Deity AI should or should not get.
No offense, but other Deity players in Civ IV have won games without improving a single tile till the AD. Thinking for solution is more productive than discussing something we cannot control.
Personally, I applaud Civ 5 people monitoring the game forum closely and doing patches so rapidly. Most companies just throws out a game and let it be. The next one will be better they all say. I rather have a Deity game to sweat myself even in the modern age, than winning cheesy Deity with Warrior Rush. That's just repetitive mindless mouse clicking. The progress of figuring out the problem is also fun in itself. Deity is suppose to be hard. We learn more from failing
In response to tread title, often Deity players will have crazy tech rate. They know how and when to leverage given situation. Even if Deity AI gets starting techs for free, don't think it'll be a problem for deity players.
You don't want percentile bonuses, because you can't handle the percentile bonuses (just joking of course).
But seriously, with seemingly unlimited happy cap, cash flow, ICSing, you don't want Deity with percentile bonuses.
Distant Deity Ai will be impossible to deal with. They settle more than 15+ cities by turn 120ish on normal size map.
Starting tech bonus is the least bonus Deity AI can get, easiest problem to overcome, relatively speaking.
No offense, but other Deity players in Civ IV have won games without improving a single tile till the AD. Thinking for solution is more productive than discussing something we cannot control.
Personally, I applaud Civ 5 people monitoring the game forum closely and doing patches so rapidly. Most companies just throws out a game and let it be. The next one will be better they all say. I rather have a Deity game to sweat myself even in the modern age, than winning cheesy Deity with Warrior Rush. That's just repetitive mindless mouse clicking. The progress of figuring out the problem is also fun in itself. Deity is suppose to be hard. We learn more from failing
In response to tread title, often Deity players will have crazy tech rate. They know how and when to leverage given situation. Even if Deity AI gets starting techs for free, don't think it'll be a problem for deity players.
You don't want percentile bonuses, because you can't handle the percentile bonuses (just joking of course).
But seriously, with seemingly unlimited happy cap, cash flow, ICSing, you don't want Deity with percentile bonuses.
Distant Deity Ai will be impossible to deal with. They settle more than 15+ cities by turn 120ish on normal size map.
Starting tech bonus is the least bonus Deity AI can get, easiest problem to overcome, relatively speaking.
He-Who-Hunts
2nd Legionary Cohort
I hear what you're saying.
I can play the game on diety but I don't particularly enjoy it, I find its just a number crunching "in it to win it" from the start kind of experience. So I usually play on immortal (or on Emperor if I'm experimenting with something).
That being said you really need to try out the AI Equalizer mod.
This mod eliminates all AI bonuses to science, starting techs, starting units, and Happiness. However It does retain AI bonuses to growth, building, maintenance and upgrading cost. I've only played a few games with it thus far on Diety but they have been extremely fun! It is obviously easier than regular Diety but the game feels more real by allowing a magnitude of immersion while presenting a decent challenge.
Plus as an avid multiplayer it doesn't force you to adopt high difficulty level only strategies.
I can play the game on diety but I don't particularly enjoy it, I find its just a number crunching "in it to win it" from the start kind of experience. So I usually play on immortal (or on Emperor if I'm experimenting with something).
That being said you really need to try out the AI Equalizer mod.
This mod eliminates all AI bonuses to science, starting techs, starting units, and Happiness. However It does retain AI bonuses to growth, building, maintenance and upgrading cost. I've only played a few games with it thus far on Diety but they have been extremely fun! It is obviously easier than regular Diety but the game feels more real by allowing a magnitude of immersion while presenting a decent challenge.
Plus as an avid multiplayer it doesn't force you to adopt high difficulty level only strategies.
jtb1127
Deity
I agree. Why couldn't they have made the AI more like the opponent of windows chess. If you turn the difficulty up, he gets smarter. But he doesn't cheat.
rschissler
King
Because they couldn't!
r_rolo1
King of myself
^^Pretty much. Chess is a seriously simple game compared with any of the civ titles ... I made the calcs for civ IV some time ago ( civ V is more complicated that civ IV due to hexes ( and maybe 1upt? ) ) and in t0 civ IV has a dozen ( +/- ) of orders of magnitude more on complexity than chess and it only gets worse with the passing of time. We are talking of a roughly similar diference as between your pocket change ATM and the US GDP 
( IIRC )
In other words, we can't even make a good Prince AI for civ V without some spicing ( see the handicap files ). Assuming that you can do a better AI for any of the higher levels is hubristic
( IIRC )In other words, we can't even make a good Prince AI for civ V without some spicing ( see the handicap files ). Assuming that you can do a better AI for any of the higher levels is hubristic
The_Quasar
King
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- 862
imho Deity is supposed to be hard, and I support making it hard in as many ways as possible, including start tech bonuses.
To me, it gives a really great satisfaction to beat the game after being so far behind near the beginning.
The only difference I'd make would be to have another difficulty level ABOVE Deity, with even more % start and techs etc. Now that would make a really serious challenge!
An alternative would be to scrap Settler level (does anyone actually play it anyway), and move the others down one, to make, for instance, the current King level the new Prince level, and so on, and to make a new Deity level on top. This would go some way to satisfy many players who believe the current levels are too easy, including Deity.
To me, it gives a really great satisfaction to beat the game after being so far behind near the beginning.
The only difference I'd make would be to have another difficulty level ABOVE Deity, with even more % start and techs etc. Now that would make a really serious challenge!
An alternative would be to scrap Settler level (does anyone actually play it anyway), and move the others down one, to make, for instance, the current King level the new Prince level, and so on, and to make a new Deity level on top. This would go some way to satisfy many players who believe the current levels are too easy, including Deity.
Redoubts
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2009
- Messages
- 44
meh, I'm tired of having the space race start in 1820.
The AI has to cheat to keep up at the higher levels, and in all honesty free techs aren't as bad in Civ 5 as they are in just about every other Civ game. Keep in mind free techs and tech bonuses in Civ 4 meant that the AI had a huge jump on founding a religion, in Civ 5, there are no bonuses to discovering a tech first other than using it earlier.
Civ is a much harder game than chess, and they have to develop the AI on much less of a budget, millions upon millions of dollars have been spent on chess AI, you can't expect the same performance from the AI of a videogame that hopefully sells several hundred thousand copies.
Civ is a much harder game than chess, and they have to develop the AI on much less of a budget, millions upon millions of dollars have been spent on chess AI, you can't expect the same performance from the AI of a videogame that hopefully sells several hundred thousand copies.
Badtz Maru
King
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2001
- Messages
- 674
What I see here is a lot of people who never tried Deity before they got Civ 5. I'm pretty sure Civ4 Deity had MORE AI bonuses than Civ5, and I remember free techs at higher difficulties in every Civ game (and I've played 1 through 5).
The_Quasar
King
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2010
- Messages
- 862
I agree with this, which is why I suggested what I did previously in this thread...
Deity level is much easier in Civ 5 than it was in Civ 4, so a tougher level needs to be introduced above it...
It s still, even after the patch possible to beat diety in sevral ways, different map and speed settings and different victory conditions.
1. Cultural: managable with even one city challange: all map types
2. Diplomatic: Since the AI is dumb, you just take a loan from every single AI the turn before the Vote, sell everything you can sell and buy all the citystates.
3. Kill everyone (well all capitals at least) This is not possible on all map settings and speed settings I guess. The bigger map the slower speed setting since otherwise you just won t make it in time.
4. Science: Doable, Max RA's small civ, say 7-8 cities maximezed growth: should be possible with most settings (not the one city challange thought)
..well there is a few more like time...
Anyhow... As long as a good player can beat the hardest settings the conclusion must be that whatever bonus the AI gets it s not to high.
If you can t beat diety it s not the AI bonus foult since obviously other players can. It is you that isn t good enough
1. Cultural: managable with even one city challange: all map types
2. Diplomatic: Since the AI is dumb, you just take a loan from every single AI the turn before the Vote, sell everything you can sell and buy all the citystates.
3. Kill everyone (well all capitals at least) This is not possible on all map settings and speed settings I guess. The bigger map the slower speed setting since otherwise you just won t make it in time.
4. Science: Doable, Max RA's small civ, say 7-8 cities maximezed growth: should be possible with most settings (not the one city challange thought)
..well there is a few more like time...
Anyhow... As long as a good player can beat the hardest settings the conclusion must be that whatever bonus the AI gets it s not to high.
If you can t beat diety it s not the AI bonus foult since obviously other players can. It is you that isn t good enough
Adding an opposing point of view to this Topic, my annoyance preference are:
Any player handicap (does not like the feeling of being punished/having altered ground mechanism beneath me) >>>>>> % AI Advantage > Flat AI Advantage.
a.) I admit that percentage advantage are much better to scale up a cheating AI, so agree with OP that flat starting advantage are nothing more, but just extra annoyance, stealing even the illusion that you have started as even, and not really effective anyway in the long term. An even greater % advantage could have been better compensated the necessity of it.
b.) Personally I feel flat advantages of the AI much more valid from historical reasons. I mean it is like you were a small barb village until the sart of the game and just started the route to become a new Civ, while your neighbours are all quite advanced already. I you want to make it parallel with history, ANY percentage bonuses/handicaps apart from the national traits are just too much imo.
Any player handicap (does not like the feeling of being punished/having altered ground mechanism beneath me) >>>>>> % AI Advantage > Flat AI Advantage.
a.) I admit that percentage advantage are much better to scale up a cheating AI, so agree with OP that flat starting advantage are nothing more, but just extra annoyance, stealing even the illusion that you have started as even, and not really effective anyway in the long term. An even greater % advantage could have been better compensated the necessity of it.
b.) Personally I feel flat advantages of the AI much more valid from historical reasons. I mean it is like you were a small barb village until the sart of the game and just started the route to become a new Civ, while your neighbours are all quite advanced already. I you want to make it parallel with history, ANY percentage bonuses/handicaps apart from the national traits are just too much imo.
This isn't about making Deity easier. This is about giving the AI scaling advantages over flat. This would make the AI scale better as well as removing the feeling for the player that he doesn't start on an even playing field.
I 100% agree. I can't beat it legit atm and I do not want it nerfed. I am discussing having the bonuses reworked.
So, you argue that you want Deity hard, admit that percentile bonuses would be harder, but claim that I want Deity to be easier when I am arguing for percentile over flat bonuses?
Surely you can see my confusion with your attack of my position.
Again, I am arguing for flat -> percentile bonuses for the AI, not to make Deity easier.
I would argue the same point for civ4 as well.
I agree, and I found it very annoying that I could rarely, if ever, found early religions - and I didn't play on Deity either.
To sum up again:
1) I do not want deity to be easier
2) I would like flat bonsues changed to percentile bonuses (perhaps even make the game harder)
3) I would argue the same for any version of civ
Anyway, I hope I am more clear with my opinions this time around.
SpearMan153
Prince
The point of civ and its modability is play it in the style and with the settings that YOU enjoy most.
What's wrong with wanting to tweak the difficulty settings to change this or that bonus.
What would be cool is if you could go to advanced settings and pick and choose the ai handicaps (percentage, flat or other) to come up with the kind of challenge that YOU find most fun.
What's wrong with wanting to tweak the difficulty settings to change this or that bonus.
What would be cool is if you could go to advanced settings and pick and choose the ai handicaps (percentage, flat or other) to come up with the kind of challenge that YOU find most fun.
That's not a bad idea either. It could have sliders for the bonuses and, in addition to having the perset difficulties, could have a "custom" difficulty as well.
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