Battle of Thermopylae 480 BC - myths vs reality

I have just been wondering how the heck could Xerxes allegedly throw masses numbering thousands of Persian warriors to an attack along a narrow strip / pass of land which was just some 150 meters wide, counting between the escarpment of the Kalidromo Massif and the sea.

Below we can see the Middle Gate, to the left of it Kalidromo Massif, to the right of it was the sea (the coastline was just behind the road), in the background - but closer than buildings of the Baths - we can see the old Phocian Wall, along which the Greeks defended themselves.

View is towards Persian positions:



Zoom on the Phocian Wall:



This is how it looked in Ancient times:



Satelite photos from Google Maps, we can see the scale, above - 200 feet, below - 100 meters:





I don't know how could anyone mass thousands of soldiers or even of... gnomes there.

It seems that at most ca. 300 - 400 men could attack the Phocian Wall in one line / row, with density of 2 men per 1 meter in each line / row.

But with density of 2 men per 1 m there would still be a huge crowd and probably not enough space for them to freely use their weapons.

The place was perfect for defence and it is quite an achievement for the Persians that they actually took it.

I once asked my professor if I could use video for a primary source on this topic because I found one. This is how it all happened, enjoy:
Link to video.

Well, for starters, the Spartan force wasn't just 300 men if I remember correctly, they had at least several times that many assistant troops and auxiliaries, though I don't exactly who those folks were.

Why not refer to the lost footage unearthed some time ago?


Link to video.

So apparently Domen's on the verge of discovering Hans Delbrück.

That leaves him with only a century to go before he catches up to the non-Polish world.

cybrxkhan said:

Well, for starters, the Spartan force wasn't just 300 men if I remember correctly, they had at least several times that many assistant troops and auxiliaries, though I don't exactly who those folks were.

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helod you mean? It is not really 300 spartan, it is 300 spartan with its thousands of helod (slaves) that periodically get a military training by their settlement been attack with Spartan and exercise battle that way.

haroon said:

helod you mean? It is not really 300 spartan, it is 300 spartan with its thousands of helod (slaves) that periodically get a military training by their settlement been attack with Spartan and exercise battle that way.

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No, I didn't mean the helots. I meant the Spartans also had other actual soldiers - from other city-states, if I remember correctly. If my memory is correct the Spartan force may have actually been as many as 8000 including these other mercenaries, auxiliaries, and allies. Still desperately outnumbered to the Persians, perhaps, but not impossible.

Do note this is vaguely in my memory, I don't know the exact numbers.

that is very very interesting if you do found the reference of your claim do post it here

cybrxkhan said:

No, I didn't mean the helots. I meant the Spartans also had other actual soldiers - from other city-states, if I remember correctly. If my memory is correct the Spartan force may have actually been as many as 8000 including these other mercenaries, auxiliaries, and allies. Still desperately outnumbered to the Persians, perhaps, but not impossible.

Do note this is vaguely in my memory, I don't know the exact numbers.

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Indeed, the helotes only appeared (in force) in the battle of Plataea where the spartan force alone was more than 10.000 soldiers (Spartan and perioikoi, non helot).

As for Thermopylae, not sure if the account is anywehre near-decent (no source given either...) but wiki mentions this:

"A Greek force of approximately 7,000 men marched north to block the pass in the summer of 480 BC. The Persian army, alleged by the ancient sources to have numbered over one million but today considered to have been much smaller (various figures are given by scholars ranging between about 100,000 and 150,000),[5][6] arrived at the pass in late August or early September. The vastly outnumbered Greeks held off the Persians for seven days (including three of battle) before the rear-guard was annihilated in one of history's most famous last stands. During two full days of battle the small force led by King Leonidas I of Sparta blocked the only road by which the massive Persian army could pass. After the second day of battle a local resident named Ephialtes betrayed the Greeks by revealing a small path that led behind the Greek lines. Leonidas, aware that his force was being outflanked, dismissed the bulk of the Greek army and remained to guard the rear with 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians, 400 Thebans and perhaps a few hundred others, most of whom were killed."

As for Plataea, well:

The enemy outnumber us a paltry three to one, good odds for any Greek

Kyriakos said:

700 Thespians, 400 Thebans

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...whom nobody remembers any more...

They should. The Thebans were probably just as important at the battle. Sure, the story is always written in a dramatic way, which makes it about 300 Spartans, but the fact that this was a pan-Greek affair has always been acknowledged in the sources. It was acknowledged in the monument they erected after Persia had been driven out. It's something that only takes a handful of minutes to find out. Hell, even the movie 300 showed other Greeks at the battle.

Well, as Simonides of Keos wrote:

Ὦ ξεῖν᾿, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

(Inform the Lacedaemonians, oh stranger, that we lie here, in acceptance to their words)

He also wrote an epitaph beginning 'here lies Megistias', but that was hardly suggesting that only Megistias was killed.

Flying Pig said:

He also wrote an epitaph beginning 'here lies Megistias', but that was hardly suggesting that only Megistias was killed.

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?

"Here lies Megistias, who died
When the Medes crossed Spercheius' tide.
A great seer, yet he scorned to save
Himself, and shared the Spartans' grave".

Epitaph of the Spartan Diviner, Megistias, at Thermopylae.

From http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Simonides_of_Ceos

It is apparent that this short epitaph exactly was written for this seer alone, probably due to the argued importance of his self-sacrifice to the common cause of the others, Spartans and other Greek citizens.

Not sure if "seer" in this context means some sort of oracle, or a military-based scout. Probably the former, in which case the epitaph likely also serves to commemorate the sacrifice of non-military people, who would supposedly be spared if they left their post.

Afaik, Greeks had around 10,000 men and Persians had around 80,000 men. but Persians never mentioned that "Greeks fought like hell" or something.

IMHO, Battle of Thermopylae is one of overrated battles in history.

Varangian Rus said:

Afaik, Greeks had around 10,000 men and Persians had around 80,000 men. but Persians never mentioned that "Greeks fought like hell" or something.

IMHO, Battle of Thermopylae is one of overrated battles in history.

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Well, the morality behind the tale was that training made a difference. Still, very overrated, but that's why we have movies like 300.

Greeks held off the Persians for seven days (including three of battle)

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And four of playing cards with them, or what?

Kyriakos said:

?

"Here lies Megistias, who died
When the Medes crossed Spercheius' tide.
A great seer, yet he scorned to save
Himself, and shared the Spartans' grave".

Epitaph of the Spartan Diviner, Megistias, at Thermopylae.

From http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Simonides_of_Ceos

It is apparent that this short epitaph exactly was written for this seer alone, probably due to the argued importance of his self-sacrifice to the common cause of the others, Spartans and other Greek citizens.

Not sure if "seer" in this context means some sort of oracle, or a military-based scout. Probably the former, in which case the epitaph likely also serves to commemorate the sacrifice of non-military people, who would supposedly be spared if they left their post.

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My point is that the more famous epitaph, being written for the Spartans alone, no more excludes the other Greeks than the Megistias verse does.

Well that much is obvious. The epitaphs or the epigrams always refer to specific people or groups, though, such as the Athenians at Marathon (where also 1000 Plataean hoplites fought, the entire citizen force of that town).

Afaik, Greeks had around 10,000 men and Persians had around 80,000 men.

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When it comes to Greeks, there were 11,200 of them according to Pausanias.

7,400 in contingents listed by Diodorus Siculus
5,200 in contingents listed by Herodotus

A compilation of contingents listed by Diodorus and Herodotus gives 8,100 (because some are listed only by Diodorus and some only by Herodotus):

Peloponnesians - 4000, including:

Lacedaemonians - 1000 (including 300 Spartiates)
Mantineians and Tegeans - 500
Tegeans - 500
Arcadians from Orchomenus - 120
Other Arcadians - 1000
Corinthians - 400
Phliusians - 200
Mycenaeans - 80
200 other Peloponnesians

Other Greeks - 4100, including:

Thespians - 700
Thebans - 400
Phocians - 1000
Locrians - 1000
Melians - 1000

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I am not sure, if these numbers above refer only to hoplites or to all armed men (including light infantry). In the battle of Plataea there were 33,700 hoplites and 34,500 light infantry (excluding Spartan and Thespian forces). Apart from this also 800 Athenian archers. So if numbers regarding Greek forces at Thermopylae given by Herodotus and Diodorus refer just to hoplites, then the total number could be even around 2 times higher - when we include light infantry.

We must add to this also helots of Spartiates. In the battle of Plataea there were 5000 Spartan hoplites and they had 35,000 helots (5 per each Spartiate). This would give us 1500 (300 x 5) helots at Thermopylae, but I have seen other estimations which say about 900 helots at Thermopylae.

Greek casualties in the battle of Thermopylae during 3 days could be up to 4000 dead soldiers or perhaps even more.

In the last stand alone (which was on 3rd day of battle), died at least 1000 Greeks (298 out of 300 Spartiates, all of 700 Thespians, etc.).

1000 Phocians guarding the secret mountain path surely also suffered heavy losses when facing the Immortals.

When it comes to 400 Thebans - it seems that they surrendered and thus survived, but surely some of them were killed before they surrendered.

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When it comes to Greek forces in the battle of Plataea, I have these numbers:

5,000 Spartan hoplites
33,700 other hoplites
35,000 helots
34,500 light infantry
800 Athenian archers
1800 Thespians

And when it comes to deployment of enemy imperial forces: The Persians (their lines) faced 11,500 independent Greek hoplites, the Medes 8,900 hoplites, the Bactrians 3,400 hoplites, the Indians 1,300 hoplites, the Saca 2,000 hoplites, and the Medized Greeks 11,600 hoplites. This can tell us something about how numerous were - in relation to each other - various contingents of the imperial forces (Persians, Medes, Bactrians, Indians, etc.).

But various contingents of the Persian army could be deployed in formations of different depth (more or less ranks deep).