1.6 feedback

[Slvynn]

Many of the most interesting mechanics (eg Tleilaxu plague, BG Kwizatz Haderach units, Harkonnen Traitor, etc. etc.) are unmeasureable or hard to evaluate. I cannot support a design approach that rejects these out of hand. What we do instead is try our best to balance these across factions. Balancing these is fuzzy and inexact, but its more important to have intereseting/fun/different mechanics than it is to have mechanics that can be balanced precisely; this is what it means to have a single-player focus.

I'll call it lazynnes, in friendly way, i hope this not offend you.
We need to make note of it, and there should be no situation that there will be no way to counter Traitor. Every traitor plot suceed? not - some can be revealed.
I dont like Plague as it is now - spreading wide to all country.
Tleilaxu been unbalanced for MP already, now together with Ecaz.
And i suggest that BTl plague mechanics should be changed to actially one like you proposed.
And traitor is actually easy thing to measure. It come to computation of siege/hammer cost effectivnes for bombing defences, which figure should be better abit for Traitor, than same or next era siege unit. So i dont have problems with it.

There ARE things possible. Just need to get ndeeper into them ,and noting every addition of special powers to any civ. You are wrong here, you just can not understood how are you. That is vital for MP balance. And no such balance - no MP.
ANd adding such balance mean just bit more extensive work
If there will be uncounterable mechanics - more of them, less ballance will be. Any sucesfull balanced game have this one.

Also there is 3b i added to previous post, which is also very important.

You separating 2 things that can settle together. There should be measuers, or counters, and fun. There are always few ways to implement certain things, and those ways, which propose more certain/exact way should be prefered.

Also i not mean direct counter. Counter in this case - something that player can use to be powerfull at same level.

 

[Slvynn]

If we take 2 huge stacks of Atriedes and Tleilaxu.

Diplomacy is not relevant. BTl have religion from early game + Shrine which easy to build. And their plague.
Atreides have more thopters xp. Thats all.
Using Diplomacy AI against AI will be more less equal, but in game where 2 players and rest or no AI - that is lack of balance.

SO thing mean that Atreides should have something more to counter Tleilaxu on even odds, or get their heirs back.
Harkonen might get more powerfull units, Ix some units that are invulnerable for plague etc.

Noting , measuring , computating every thing, taking situations of Civ vs Civ encounters in MP into consideration as well.

And chart 9x9 will be helpfull, perhaps for every era.
All this arguing and my point that we should put more attnetion to this matter, if we want to produce mod that have both SP and MP value and quality.
Its easy to get lost in forest of added features, and its easier to pre-design in right form, than to trying to fix things later.

 

[Ahriman]

We need to make note of it, and there should be no situation that there will be no way to counter Traitor. Every traitor plot suceed? not - some can be revealed.

There is no obvious way to make a "counter" effect for the traitor unit, in the sense that there is something a player does actively to increase the chance of foiling a traitor's plan.
If you wanted to implement a failure chance, the way to do this would be on the ability, but even then that wouldn't be easy to implement. I would also suggest that just having a large failure chance might not be fun; in strategy games, we make plans, and large random abilities can be frustrating.
But having say a 25% chance of losing the traitor when you use it without a bombard effect doesnt' seem unreasonable.
But "countering" the unit isn't the right way to think about balancing it.

And i suggest that BTl plague mechanics should be changed to actially one like you proposed

.

To clarify: my proposal was to replace the *city* infection of the plague effect with an espionage mission. I still think we should keep a version of the plague that spreads through units. Though maybe we should tweak it so that units gradually recover and are immune for a few turns, and then must be re-infected by new contact in order to keep the penalty.
But the city pandemic effect spy mission would also qualify as a moderately powerful effect.

You are wrong here, you just can not understood how are you.

You really are incredibly offensive, you know that?

Also there is 3b i added to previous post, which is also very important.

How does 3b differ from (4)? It seems like they are making the same point.

something that player can use to be powerfull at same level.

I have no problem with this. This is in fact the main thing I am arguing for: the way to balance factions is by giving them different mechanics which are equally powerful, but the advantages don't need to be in the same area. One faction might get military advantagse, another economic, another technological, another city growth.
But this is the opposite of a "counter" based system, where you try to include counters for a particular mechanic. If you have a Tleilaxu plague mechanic, you *don't* just give everyone else a unit that can instantly cure the plague; you give them other advantages instead.

Diplomacy is not relevant.

Diplomacy is a very relevant part of balance. The Tleilaxu are designed to be as strong as they are because they will have large diplomacy penalty vs every other faction, because they are the only ones who will follow their religion. They will never be able to get a same-religion ally with good diplomatic relations with whom they can do lots of trading.
Tleilaxu are forced to basically do things for themselves, they will have a much more difficult time getting cooperation out of other factions. This is part of their faction balance.

BTl have religion from early game + Shrine which easy to build. And their plague.
Atreides have more thopters xp. Thats all.

I don't think anyone is pretending that the factions are anywhere close to being balanced in their current form. We're still in the adding UUs, UBs, and new mechanics phase.
Absolutely I agree that Atreides are currently fairly weak. I'd like to see them with a Diplomacy advantage, and with some more midgame and late-game advantages. A hornet UU, for example.

SO thing mean that Atreides should have something more to counter Tleilaxu on even odds

No. The existence of Tleilaxu plague does NOT mean that every other faction needs a mechanic so that they can get a strength bonus so that their units can fight the Tleilaxu units on even combat odds, despite the plague.
What it might mean instead is that other factions have more trade routes, or bigger cities, or better diplomacy (=more tech trading), etc. etc. so that they will be able to field a larger or more advanced army relative to the Tleilaxu.

And chart 9x9 will be helpfull, perhaps for every era.

A 9x9 chart chart (comparing each faction's mechanics to every other faction's mechanics) is not the right way to go about things I think.
Similarly, there is no particular reason why every faction must be balanced to each other for every single era.
It is for example perfectly reasonable for some factions (eg Fremen) to have a powerful early game, while other factions (eg Ix) could have a more powerful late-game.
Instead, each faction should be compared and balanced as a whole.

All this arguing and my point that we should put more attnetion to this matter, if we want to produce mod that have both SP and MP value and quality.

From now on I will just ignore any comment you make that I can't understand.

 

[davidlallen]

I reject the core idea encapsulated in this, which is that faction-specific mechanics cannot be moderately powerful. I am surprised David that you feel this way; previously you strongly opposed suggestions that would have weakened the Tleilaxu plague ability, on the ground that you wanted faction-specific effects to be moderately powerful.

My point is that it is a scale. Starting from zero strength, as you increase the strength up to some point A, it is better for everybody because the civ becomes more unique and interesting. As you continue increasing the strength from A to B, it may become more interesting from the SP standpoint. But MP players will start to all demand to play as that civ and refuse to play against that civ. As you continue to increase the strength beyond B, even SP players will get bored because it is too easy to win with that civ.

The breakpoints A,B are unfortunately subjective. We definitely want to make sure that all civs reach strength A. Slvynn's point is that FFH has taken *some* of the civs into the B range, and MP has suffered.

 

[davidlallen]

Guys, please take a one hour break before posting more on this thread.

 

[Slvynn]

If my buddy tell me about some man that he is trustworthly man , and i know opposite , i will say to him same sentence which incredibly offended Ahriman. I dont find this offensive , sorry.

You are wrong here, you just can not understand how are you (wrong).

Perhaps again my fast typing - I'll rephrase it -

You mistake, you just dont know how you are.....

I don't see any right in one who not denying possibility that he can be wrong.

On other things i will stop posting - and leave it for david/deliverator observation. I really really don't like Ahrimans way, and i find it..... i'll stop better, to avoid being said that i am offensive again. You know to argue, buddy, but you dont know to do much other things... as we are all.. we are not complete geniuses .... We both hold some intelegence and experience, which should meet at middlepoint ... If you to be an ultimate designer i may say if it goes exactly that way you describe - i will not play such a game, as i am not playing FFH.
Also i see that it's a problem for you to being accused of being wrong, but fear of such accusation is sign of being wrong.

On Tleilaxu - there is example how narrow minded are your replies to my posts. I find that Diplomacy in BTl vs Atreides 2 man MP game is not relevant. AI never start wars before turn 150 at epic. Even with AI, there is no penalty for BTl - he can just send early booned forces and wipe Atreides. He have religion, better economy (more happy), and better guardsman to use. That's is certain disbalance, and i find fact that you deny it amusing and frustrating at same time.

I am saying right common things about care about balance, and been answered by things from you which deny each other (i can post you quotes), i just dont want to waste my time for that yet. Dismissed completely by not competent observations on other's minds. I know plently of people who prefer balance and MP. And you still , battling my observations , instead to accept them being merged together. I do not like this. Especially where i am sure that i am right. I know, from experience and all intelligence i have. If it have not its value i am to be dismissed by myself. I have no fun warning about very important things that will make DW unique, different and special, and being dismissed by one who want to create FFH in the dunes, and for my will being accused in incredible offence..

 

[Ahriman]

My point is that it is a scale.

I don't think this is a useful paradigm. If you increase the strength of everyone's mechanics equally, then balance is maintained. Making mechanics more powerful is a problem only if you do it for some factions and not others.
Breakpoints are so inherently undefinable and subjective that looking for them is not a very productive way of balancing. Is a Tleilaxu plague mechanic inherently unbalanceable? Is a Kwizatz Haderach mechanic inherently unbalanceable? I don't think so.

I agree with your implied point, which is that the more powerful individual faction mechanics are, the harder it is to increase them equally, and thus the harder it is to balance them across factions.
But it is not necessarily impossible to get "good enough" balance with reasonably powerful mechanics.

Any particular mechanic should be considered on a case-by-case basis - which is why I prefer to frame this discussion in the presence of examples. We should not a priori reject any mechanic just because it is powerful or different or hard to balance because we fear it might cause a problem for the small number of players interested in multiplayer balance. If we think about it or test it and it seems too hard to balance, *then* we can drop it, or look for an alternative, but I think most mechanics can be balanced through tweaks, rather than by abandoning them.

@Slyvnn.
I have no objection to being called wrong, or having people disagree with me. I'd encourage you to argue with me on any point where you disagree with me.

What I object to is the arrogant certainty of "you just can not understood how are you". Or the implication that I am untrustworthy.

I am not the lead designer on this mod; that would be David. What I am doing is advocating for a design philosphy that *I* think will work better than yours, in making a fun game that people will want to play. Each of us outlines our position, including compromises when feasible, and then we leave it for others to see which they agree with more or work out some intermediate position. That's how it works.

* * *

I find that Diplomacy in BTl vs Atreides 2 man MP game is not relevant.

Yes, diplomacy isn't relevant in Duel games. But I don't really think we're aiming at balance for games with only 2 players in them.

don't think anyone is pretending that the factions are anywhere close to being balanced in their current form. We're still in the adding UUs, UBs, and new mechanics phase.
Absolutely I agree that Atreides are currently fairly weak.

That's is certain disbalance, and i find fact that you deny it amusing and frustrating at same time.

???

I don't see any right in one who not denying possibility that he can be wrong.

Especially where i am sure that i am right

???!??

 

[Slvynn]

I wont reply too much i have not seen many compromises from your side, while i 've been on compromise point long time - and i never meant to call you untrustworthy..... it was just allegory, where untrustworthy man is idea that haunt you (my buddy in that sentence).....that FFH way of differentiating is right way to go with DW. I am sure that this way lead to lack of certain balance, and will ruin interest to many people... I am sure.. i rly on my experience and lifetime knowledge...That will create game for ones like you, but while you can create game for ones like you and for ones like me, you still persist, as designer, on choosing 1st ....................
i will let it roll, i just tell another allegory.

2 men stand by different sides of building.
One side painted blue, other black. One tell it is blue, other shout it is black. It is either .
I didnt denied most of your points, i just defending fact that the building is not only blue, and we should know that black exist, while you keep ferociously denying possibility that it can be black.

Yes i am not denying possibility that i can be wrong, but when it comes to part of feeling and knowing - i am sure, i just know that i am wrong for people like you but i represent people who want not too much complexity and want fair balance. And i represent ones who see the black side of building. I am not denying blue side, when you denying black......... You still persist in way which deny attempt to create exact balance, which will be valid for MP, its still Ahrimans way 100% flavor and 0% MP compatibility, because you arguing with me on matter that every "circumstance benefit" should be reviewed, because you persist on FFH unrestrained ways to create flavor, which will hurt values of game, which i defend. I know that and i am sure about that.

You see, such comparison of civ against civ - that brought some results, some understanding, so proposal of compare civs in table of 9x9 is ok, and eras are must to have precise full picture of civ, it will help to find interesting things, which missed our attention. Still, you stubbornly persist that we will not use some methods which can be good.. Even here, you deny method which can lead to interesting revelations. You deny in-depth observation, effective approach, and that seems incompetent.
And i tried to talk to you and ramble with you, i knew what i am talking, i dont want another FFH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (i cant agree it should be blue completely) i want something completely different, that can offer more than FFH and Civ4 in some regards.. mixing best and fitting parts fo those wit hsomething new, creating new amalgam .
again where are your dam compromises? your narrow and stubborn approach annoy me perhaps i'll leave this forum.
Also if you reply, try not to miss your accusations of me being offensive, they are completely wrong, which i resent, and i was very polite ,till now, perhaps. Perhaps i am now, but i dont care , because i wrote to much text, was accused in much things, and being resent. Have your joy in creating your own game.
I am leaving it, and mod perhaps. I have no joy to continue this. Another one (me) bites the dust.

 

[Ahriman]

I do not find your colored building analogy very useful. There is only one mod here, and the same mechanics will be in play in both a single and multiplayer setting.

In terms of compromises; as I have said repeatedly throughout the thread, having a mod that is fun for multiplayer is great - even though the proportion of people who are interested in this is relatively small. The only compromise I am not willing to make is a blanket rejection of any mechanic that is not simple and easily evaluated, and does not have narrow direct counters. Anything else is on the table for discussion, on a case by case basis.

I would suggest that if you are worried about the mod being too imbalanced for multiplayer, the most useful thing to do would be to comment on particular factions that you feel are too strong or too weak (once we actually have a completed design to start balancing), or particular specific mechanics that you don't think can be balanced. Though I don't think we've really even started trying to implement faction balancing yet.
If you think that the Tleilaxu religion gives too much early game advantage (which is useful feedback!), then maybe we should reduce its early game benefit and push some of the other benefits later - or have the religion be founded at Faith tech instead of instantly. As to Ecazi trade routes, lets try adding more of the unique units and mechanics for other factions before concluding that Ecaz are definitely too strong. And then, if they are, let's weaken them. Pinning down whether the problem is the number of trade routes, the trade route yields, or their Smuggler unit would also help.
I'm unsure as to which other mechanics you have concerns with, or think are inherently unbalancing.

Though I disagree with your perspective on many design issues and find your style highly disconcerting, as I've said many times your art designs have been excellent, and I'm excited to see what you can come up with in terms of unit artwork.
It would be a big shame if you decided you weren't interesting in adding to the mod with more artwork.

 

[Slvynn]

I really like mod, i dont know if i'll continue with yet, but i lose all my joy of participating in such discussions - what i was telling that such check at least should be made, i didn't tell that every not-evaluable feature should be rejected.
The idea is to make strict track of features , to ease balancing ,and maintaining charts, which are not so hard to do, which allow us to see full picture.
By this we can find all balance threat mechanics and modify them , replace with something adapded, in order to imrove feel of balance.
Now you talk different, and at least there is a change.
At least you agreeing that mod can be designed with full flavor and with full attention to MP/SP balance.
Not every flavor mechanic should be rejected. I didnt said that. Restrained. Observed. If possible - modified and adapted. All what i was talkig about is attention, alert to certain things.
I dont want to continue with project which modding atmosphere/direction is not good for me, so there are few notes:
1. When there is a proposal, its always good to take best things from it and repost with modification/adjustment. Many raw ideas can contain alot of useless things, but they can contain good directions, new approaches, which can be good and helpfull. So please object ideas as direction, which can be modified, instead of critique which just kill some new ideas in their raw form, and kills joy of one who those ideas produce. Often people experience do not match, but that is exiting part of it, when people share it, gathering parts of each other's knowledge - potent things may be created.
2. Direction of MOD. I dont like over-following FFH scheme. There always should be some ambition in new projects to invent something , to do something new, using some ideas from previous projects, which succeed, and modifying others. I think that very important part of Dune pc-game is intense work with balance, and viability for MP. All is needed is to build system by which we can track all additions, and balance things upon adding them. Ambition to bring new people to CivIV - through mod!
I'll comment any observations and lack of balance if i observe them, and if i'll calm down and will stay.
3. Amtal rule is great rule, but it says that things should be checked. Tested. Before denial.
4. Feedbacks - they are important. Kael in his guide says 75% of them rejected,. but that means 25% are not. There are already numerous feedbacks telling same thing - spice is too weak. We need to accept it , and find the way to boost it in next patch, because this is problem, which noted several people, and we cant just deny it. There should be some way.
5. If someone invest their private time and love (i'll use this word, because it is proper) into the mod, and have certain vision and expectations they can't be just plainly rejected. At some part, with modifications, ob course, at least part of their expectation should be satisfied. It is very disappointing to invest time into project, and then to know that it take course which you know will bring loss of your interest to project. It's a team work, and lets compare anyone with you, Ahri. And also lets remember some morale from Dune books:
Its very important to know how to change your mind. Accepting changes, and accepting other course. If you don't recall, i doing it very frequently, at slight glimpse of feel that i am being wrong. You do not, and it will be easy for all if all of us will know to do that.
Also if someones way does not look clear for you - do not rush to deny it. Observe it - and learn from it, because people are different. I'll give you another sentence from some philosophy book - "The major thing that people cant understand, is how much there are things that they don't understand, that they do not understand them"
Also please do not see (5) as arrogant teaching - i appreciate your experience, and i just sharing my experience, as gift, which can be very useful , can be revelation, if used properly. I also saying it because i know, for certain, reasons, and i see them on my example, of things that happened here, on DW forum in past.

 

[Xaos]

Hello Dunewars Team.

I appologize in advance if I am posting this in the wrong spot as I am bewildered by the shear amount of posts/topics and not quite sure where to go. I am currently playing the 1.6.4 version of Dunewars mod.

I just wanted to congratulate you on what a wonderful job you guys have done on this mod. When i downloaded it, I was expecting the same old Civ 4 game with the names of stuff just changed around a bit. I was pleasantly surprised to see the depth of content you've added.

My initial thoughts so far having played through a complete game as Atreides once and Freeman once:

My only real gripe about the mod is the long wait time between turns. After 50 or so turns, the games started playing like a 'play by mail' game. Not sure what the computer is doing on their turns, but it takes them forever. I tried lowering the game and graphic settings but that didnt cause any noticeable change in time.

Minor issues: The game (for me anyways) doesnt seem to allow you to have less then a full list of opponents. I tried making a custom game with only 6 to see larger empires, but still I ended up with the full amount of AI leaders. Also the leaders are not unique. I had 3 Erin Malkys and 2 Bene Theliex (sp?) in the same game. Now this wouldnt normally be an issues, except for times when you get messages pertaining to a leader and are left wondering "Which one?". Might be good to make each leader name unique to a game.

The Technology 'Artificial Spice' doesnt seem to do anything.

The unit 'Inquisitor' also doesnt seem to do anything (but I may be missing their intended purpose or not puting them where they are supposed to be in order to get options to do more then Move, Sleep, Skip turn).


The part of the game that most intrigued me was terraforming. I tried this strategy in both games and even on settler difficulty I was unable to achieve the terraforming victory before I won on points. The max I had was 134 tiles transformed. Is this intended to be so difficult?

The Computer AI doesnt ever seem to like any other strategy but spice. Even when you become friendly with them and buy their conversion to paradise future, after a few turns they go back to spice. Is this also intended? That the computer AI hates any other strategy then spice harvesting?

The computer never seemed to build very large empires. Early in the game, every other civ seems quite content to have only 2 cities. Also on a funny note, the reccomendation pop-up for me early on in the game is always settler. even when I have 6-7 times the number of cities as all the other civs.

Religion also seems very difficult to spread. I dont know how a religious victory would even be possible. Even when I bribe the other civs to adopt my religion and have sent missionaries to all their cities, after 10 turns they convert right back to whatever they were and somehow start purging their cities of my religion. Was very frustrating.

Not sure what the sand worm AI is, but they always seemed to just hover around the edge of my cities and annoy me with the 'the enemy has been spotted near.." messages. Sometimes I could kill them with scouts. other times lvl 7 units couldnt even scratch them. they seem to have a wide range of power levels.

Maybe it was just the settler difficulty, but it seemed to me that money was rediculously easy to come by in the game. it was to the point that I could just buy reinforcements or spend money to hurry production of whatever I wanted to build. I could easily just bulldoze through any other civ by just throwing craploads of units at them.


If any of the above is due to my ignorance of game mechanic or by design then I am sorry to bother you

Keep up the good work.

 

[Ahriman]

Hi Xaos, welcome to DuneWars! Great to see that the mod has encouraged you to de-lurk and start posting.

As for some of the particular issues:

My only real gripe about the mod is the long wait time between turns.

This is a common problem with many mods on low performance machines. What map size are you playing on, with how many opponents? Some of the effects like sandstorms can increase the runtime a bit, as can just having large n
Dunewars is much better than many mods in this regard I think (eg Rise of Mankind and such).
All I can really recommend if you are having runtime issues is:
a) play smaller maps (small or standard are the best - I typically play standard map size with 9 civs and Epic gamespeed, Emperor difficulty).
b) upgrade your PC

Minor issues: The game (for me anyways) doesnt seem to allow you to have less then a full list of opponents.

This doesn't sound right, I don't think I've ever experienced this. Not sure what could be causing this.

. Also the leaders are not unique. I had 3 Erin Malkys and 2 Bene Theliex

This also sounds very strange. I have never seen a game with more than 1 of each faction unless I have more than 9 players.

Is it possible that you somehow have the Revolutions options turned on, so that extra AI players are spawning during the game? This often happens if you starting playing DuneWars after playing some other mods.
Go into My Games/Beyond the Sword/CivilizationIV.ini , search for GameOptions and make sure that the GameOptions = biglongnumber has that number made up entirely of zeros.

The Technology 'Artificial Spice' doesnt seem to do anything.

Yes, this is currently a placeholder. There will be a "Project Amal" wonder here, which will provide extra spice resources to the player - very powerful.

The max I had was 134 tiles transformed. Is this intended to be so difficult?

We've only just introduced this method of the terraforming victory (it used to be quite different) so we are still very much process of balancing this requirement, so we're looking for feedback. Did you have a lot of Reservoirs of Liet built?

The unit 'Inquisitor' also doesnt seem to do anything

The inquisitor should be the standard vanilla inquisitor, that has an ability to purge non-state religions from cities. It doesn't do this?

The Computer AI doesnt ever seem to like any other strategy but spice.

This depends on the particular faction/leader. The Fremen and Atreides prefer Arrakis Paradise, the Ecazi and Corrino prefer Arrakis Spice, most of the others don't care, but don't understand the benefits from terraforming (but do understand the harvester yield bonus) and so tend to go for Spice. I actually kinda like the way this plays out; terraforming is probably more powerful overall, but it makes you a diplomatic leper if you pursue it, because it risks destroying the spice.

The computer never seemed to build very large empires. Early in the game, every other civ seems quite content to have only 2 cities.

Also odd. What difficulty level are you playing at.
Are you sure that the computer hasn't built more cities on other "islands"? The AI is pretty good at transporting settlers to other islands - and particularly likes to contest the polar zone early in the game, with its high water income.

Religion also seems very difficult to spread.

It depends a lot on the religion. Every religion has different spread mechanics. look in the Duneopedia for details on each religion. Imperium spreads very rapidly, but is easily displaced. Mahdi spreads only by conquest. Tleilaxu Zensufism is Tleilaxu only. Shai-Hulad is available early but is very slow to spread. Quizarate spreads by missionary only but also wipes out all other religions when it does spread.

Imperium or Quizarate are the only ones really with a chance for religious victory - and Mahdi could get holy war.

after 10 turns they convert right back to whatever they were and somehow start purging their cities of my religion

Which religions and factions? Some leader have a preferred religion (Shaddam wants to be Imperial, Ecaz wants to be Landsraad, Leto II wants to be Quizarate, etc.) while others don't care.

Not sure what the sand worm AI is, but they always seemed to just hover around the edge of my cities

Worms have AI to chase down units; they move randomly unless there are units nearby, and then try to chase down the units (attracted by the vibrations). Unfortunately I think there is still a bug from an older version, when the worms could travel onto rock tiles; the worms are attracted to units within 2 tiles of them even if those units are on land. Hence why they hang around your cities.

Sometimes I could kill them with scouts. other times lvl 7 units couldnt even scratch them. they seem to have a wide range of power levels

Worms aren't supposed to be killable. They're natural hazards, not normal barbarians. They will go away once they eat a unit or destroy a harvester though, so there is always the option of feeding them...
I don't see how a scout could ever kill one, the smallest worms are strength 20.

Maybe it was just the settler difficulty, but it seemed to me that money was rediculously easy to come by in the game.

Ahh. Settler. Yeah, thats not really going to be very much fun. Highly suggest you crank the difficult level up. I recommend at least 1 level higher than whatever you normally play vanilla civ at. Personally I like Emperor or Immortal.

Thanks very much for the feedback anyway, glad you're enjoying the mod.

 

[davidlallen]

Unfortunately I think there is still a bug from an older version, when the worms could travel onto rock tiles; the worms are attracted to units within 2 tiles of them even if those units are on land. Hence why they hang around your cities.

You have mentioned this several times, and I do not think there is any such bug. Worms are not attracted by units on land. Worms move randomly and if they get into a tight area with not much deep desert, they may never find a way out. You can only see worms around cities, because you cannot see many deep desert tiles. But if you expose the whole map and watch, you will see that the real density of worms is no higher around cities than anywhere else.

The game maintains a constant number of worms during the game, so losses are automatically replaced; perhaps I should give each worm a few percent chance of dying each turn so that if they do get stuck, they will eventually disappear and a new one will appear in deep desert?

Worms aren't supposed to be killable. They're natural hazards, not normal barbarians. They will go away once they eat a unit or destroy a harvester though, so there is always the option of feeding them... I don't see how a scout could ever kill one, the smallest worms are strength 20.

Many people have reported killing worms in the early game. Depending on the game difficulty level, all Civilization games/mods ensure that your first few fights against animals are automatic wins, even with scouts. Also, the lower difficulty levels give a huge percentage bonus against animals.

On the one hand, the game does this automatically so that new players will not throw up their hands in disgust at severe early losses. On the other hand, enough new players have commented on this that perhaps we should remove the behavior. It is easy enough to change in the xml; what do you think about setting the animal bonus and free kills to zero even on the easiest difficulty levels?

 

[Ahriman]

You have mentioned this several times, and I do not think there is any such bug. Worms are not attracted by units on land

Really? I am wrong then.
I *thought* that worms were attracted to units on land because you used to have code where worms could travel on land, and so the worms were attracted to any unit in a 2-tile radius no matter what tile it was on, and I thought that you previously confirmed that this was the case and that you hadn't had a chance to fix this.

perhaps I should give each worm a few percent chance of dying each turn

Hmm. Seems like a decent idea. Maybe 2-3%?

Depending on the game difficulty level, all Civilization games/mods ensure that your first few fights against animals are automatic wins, even with scouts.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten this again. You are right, this is the issue.

what do you think about setting the animal bonus and free kills to zero even on the easiest difficulty levels?

This seems fine to me, but it is probably more important to get feedback from people who play at a low difficulty level. Xaos, what do you think? Would you mind if your units always died to worms?
Its probably pretty confusing to get the free kills, so I think that zero is probably the best way to go.

 

[Xaos]

This is a common problem with many mods on low performance machines. What map size are you playing on, with how many opponents? Some of the effects like sandstorms can increase the runtime a bit, as can just having large n
Dunewars is much better than many mods in this regard I think (eg Rise of Mankind and such).
All I can really recommend if you are having runtime issues is:
a) play smaller maps (small or standard are the best - I typically play standard map size with 9 civs and Epic gamespeed, Emperor difficulty).
b) upgrade your PC

Yeah I was playing a mammoth map with 13 civs (I think) so maybe that has a lot to do with it. My computer is pretty high end if a bit outdated (I can run crysis with no problem), so I doubt it's that.

We've only just introduced this method of the terraforming victory (it used to be quite different) so we are still very much process of balancing this requirement, so we're looking for feedback. Did you have a lot of Reservoirs of Liet built?

I had them built in every city I possibly could. By the time I won on points, I had around 25 cities (not sure if they all had reservoirs, but many did)

I would really like to try this again. Can you tell me which techs to research, and which buildings will maximize the rate of terraforming so I can see how to achieve this? How many cities or how much land should you have to consider this type of victory?

This is for me the selling point of your mod. I am totally in love with the terraforming feature. Would be really cool was if you get a terraforming victory, that the whole map gets terraformed. Maybe turn the desert into water? Probably not possible, but would be really cool lol

It depends a lot on the religion. Every religion has different spread mechanics. look in the Duneopedia for details on each religion. Imperium spreads very rapidly, but is easily displaced. Mahdi spreads only by conquest. Tleilaxu Zensufism is Tleilaxu only. Shai-Hulad is available early but is very slow to spread. Quizarate spreads by missionary only but also wipes out all other religions when it does spread.

Imperium or Quizarate are the only ones really with a chance for religious victory - and Mahdi could get holy war.

Which religions and factions? Some leader have a preferred religion (Shaddam wants to be Imperial, Ecaz wants to be Landsraad, Leto II wants to be Quizarate, etc.) while others don't care.

Aah now I see. The religions I tried were technocrat and Landsraad

Worms have AI to chase down units; they move randomly unless there are units nearby, and then try to chase down the units (attracted by the vibrations). Unfortunately I think there is still a bug from an older version, when the worms could travel onto rock tiles; the worms are attracted to units within 2 tiles of them even if those units are on land. Hence why they hang around your cities.

Worms aren't supposed to be killable. They're natural hazards, not normal barbarians. They will go away once they eat a unit or destroy a harvester though, so there is always the option of feeding them...
I don't see how a scout could ever kill one, the smallest worms are strength 20.

Now I see from the replies that it is the easy player auto kill for new games. I would have no problems at all with the worms being unkillable. I was not expecting to be able to kill one.

Ahh. Settler. Yeah, thats not really going to be very much fun. Highly suggest you crank the difficult level up. I recommend at least 1 level higher than whatever you normally play vanilla civ at. Personally I like Emperor or Immortal.

I generally just play on easy so I can get a feel for how stuff works before moving up to a higher difficulty.

 

[davidlallen]

I would really like to try this again. Can you tell me which techs to research, and which buildings will maximize the rate of terraforming so I can see how to achieve this? How many cities or how much land should you have to consider this type of victory?

Please do look into the civilopedia, Dune Wars Concepts tab, Terraforming section. All of the material in the Concepts is important background, but the Terraforming section should answer your questions. The specific percent chance for a plot to terraform is related to the number of catchbasins and reservoirs you have built, but also, the plot must have access to fresh water. Perhaps you need to build more wells, so terraforming has a place to take hold.

Now I see from the replies that it is the easy player auto kill for new games. I would have no problems at all with the worms being unkillable. I was not expecting to be able to kill one.

Thanks for the feedback. Since many new players have commented on this, I will take out the free kills and animal bonus in the next patch.

 

[God-Emperor]

Even without the free kill it is still possible to kill a worm. It does take a lot of pounding on it with air units first though, unless maybe it is one of the earlier Strength 20 worms that survives until the late game when you've got units in that strength vicinity. I did it once, just to do it. But there isn't really much point - the worm is replaced, somewhere on the map, the next turn. Since a worm will only destroy one harvester and then disappear, it is easier to just send a worker or two to replace the lost harvester after the worm destroys it.

 

[davidlallen]

(redirected from civilizations thread)

1) Inkvine is literally just a plant, that can be made into whips to control unarmed slaves. Its not a combat weapon, and its not somethnig a soldier would use.

Interesting reaction. They are not attacking with plants. I recall that Gurney was a former slave of the Harkonnen and he had a dark scar on his cheek due to being whipped with inkvine. My assumption is that the commanders of these units do that sort of thing to motivate the troops. If you can suggest a different name for the unit, that would be fine too.

2) A weaker city defender with a bonus vs melee feels strange to me. How is this related to the Harkonnen themes? Harkonnen should have a high-mass quantity army of weak soldiers and conscripts, and should focus more on heavy tanks and artillery.

Inkvine has strength 12 and +25% melee, Heavy Trooper has strength 10 and +30% city. So inkvine is fractionally weaker in city, but the point is that they are supposed to be out killing units not sitting around in a city.

Also, the Harkonnen Devastator was intended to be super-high strength, but only have 1 movement point. That thing is sloooow.

We can make that change. Will it be crippled relative to the base heavy scorpion?

Another idea: is it possible to reduce xp given to newly created units? So you could have a "conscription center" that gave -1 xp to newly created units, but +20% military production rate. It wouldnt' take units below 0 xp, but would reduce the bonuses given by other buildings. Or: Harkonnen could have a barracks replacement, that gave a +20% military production rate rather than the +3 xp. Or tweak the numbers slightly for balance.

The barracks gives +2 XP. We can make some other building which gives -1 XP and +20% military production. What should we call it?

Ordos trike might need an extra city attack penalty, to ovoid OPness and to emphasize its function as a raider.

What is "OPness"? Over Powered ness? OK.

 

[Ahriman]

Inkvine has strength 12 and +25% melee, Heavy Trooper has strength 10 and +30% city. So inkvine is fractionally weaker in city, but the point is that they are supposed to be out killing units not sitting around in a city.

Ahh, I didn't realize they were +2 base strength - I was going from the patch notes, not ingame use. So this unit is much stronger than the base heavy trooper. Its also stronger in city defense; a city defense 2 heavy trooper fortified in a city is 10*(1+0.3+0.2+0.2+0.25) = 19.5 strength, a city defense 2 inkvine trooper fortified in a city is 12*(1+0.2+0.2+0.25) = 19.8, and even better vs melee units or in the field or on favorable terrain or if the city has a city defense rating.
Higher base strength magnifies the benefits of all other modifiers.

My assumption is that the commanders of these units do that sort of thing to motivate the troops

This makes sense, but its hard to convey. This name makes it feel like the Inkvine is the weapon (like lasgun troopers use lasguns, or kindjal soldiers use kindjals, or missile troopers use missiles).

The main point remains; why is a city defender guardsmen unit a thematic Harkonnen strength?
[If we can answer this then I will think about an alternative name.]

I would think that say a Missile Launcher UU would make sense for that tier in the game. Harkonnen bring back artillery (which weren't typiaclly used) in their conquest of Dune.

Maybe: Howitzer, which is a missile launcher with a +70% instead of +50% city attack?

We can make that change. Will it be crippled relative to the base heavy scorpion?

I don't think so; it has a base strength that is ~7 points higher, no?
You just have to use it with transports, or with 2 moves in homeland territory.
It has a different role; its high enough strength to be a city attacker, as well as the ultimate stack defender. Nothing else comes close.
I'd consider taking its hammer cost back down to that of a heavy scorpion - I have a vague memory that its cost was higher.

The barracks gives +2 XP. We can make some other building which gives -1 XP and +20% military production. What should we call it?

We could call it... conscription center. I would see it as a Harkonnen UB, available at Harsh Conditioning tech?. I'd also be fine with no xp penalty (and no bonus) and having it just be a barracks replacement.

What is "OPness"? Over Powered ness? OK.

Yes. Sorry. Too much time doing balance discussions in RTS forums.

 

[Slvynn]

I think -1 XP is problematic, just remove penalty, conscripts just have no experience - now way ssuch centres will make reverse process in getting ready their conscripts for the war. Also there is maintenance problems, and perhaps it can have bonus of lowered maintenance like Zulu Ikhanda. Otherwise it will be just too weak UB