1.6 feedback

[Deliverator]

DV23 - Just started a game as Corrino and I start with 2 scout thopters, a soldier and a settler. This seems a bit unfair compared with other civs that start with 2 soldiers and a settler. Can we just standardized it for everyone apart from the Fremen, so that everyone gets a settler, a soldier and a scout thopter.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Is it just me of do Atreides ALWAYS get first place by MILES in every game? my last game they had more than double my points and i was in a comfortable second place. they had vassalised 2 other civs (Ordos and Corrino)

 

[Ahriman]

Can we just standardized it for everyone apart from the Fremen, so that everyone gets a settler, a soldier and a scout thopter.

This sounds fine to me. And Fremen get settler, soldier, scout.

Is it just me of do Atreides ALWAYS get first place by MILES in every game?

I hadn't really noticed this. Only things that could really cause this are:
a) Older versions had free units for Atreides, which were a big deal in boosting them
b) Financial trait is very powerful, so is philosophical with a specialist economy
c) Potentially just their AI's happen to be more efficient? Though they are quite different; Alia is very aggressive and intolerant, paul is aggressive and likable, Duke Leto is friendly and likable, Leto II is imperialistic.
d) Terraforming is favored by Atreides, and is probably still too powerful atm (probably needs rates slowed down - are they adjusted for game speed??). This is likely to be the main cause. Fremen (who also favor Arrakis paradise civic) aren't as powerful because they're currently handicapped by their inability to expand well early game across deserts (AI doesn't understand that settlers can cross desert, and they don't have scout thopterS).

 

[Diamondeye]

Okay, some real feedback:

AI:
-Ordos AI is very poor. I have experienced several times where it DoWs after I've attacked one of its friends, without taking the war serious. I've killed Ordos in what seemed like a dogpile-move against me several times. Also, it seems very reluctant to expand.
-It is very difficult to get Liet-Kynes to pleased in any sort of time-frame that would make Fremen Water Debt usable (Crysknifers, primarily?).

Ressources:
-Spice is not nearly important enough. It needs a buff, considering its value lorewise (or else, I just don't get what it does? Is the +1 stackable, and does it work in every city?)
-Crystal is too rare.
-Nitrates (or rather, Rocket guys from Nitrate) is a extremely viable early rush tactic - overpowered?

Misc:
-There is too large a distance in the tech tree from Sopho (Offworld trade) to Mentats.

 

[Ahriman]

Thanks for the feedback.

-Ordos AI is very poor. I have experienced several times where it DoWs after I've attacked one of its friends, without taking the war serious. I've killed Ordos in what seemed like a dogpile-move against me several times. Also, it seems very reluctant to expand.

The Ordos AIs are not particularly aggressive in starting wars (though the Executrix is more aggressive than Roma). They are mercenary and opportunistic; they are easily bribed into a war and will start dogpile wars. I see this as very in character. Ordos prefer to stay at peace and use espionage, or be paid to fight.
I would be very surprised if they are reluctant to expand in terms of building settlers. I have not observed this, and there aren't really any AI personality factors that would lead to this.
Ordos are generally also weak atm because they lack UUs and powerful mechanics, we haven't really put them in yet.

It is very difficult to get Liet-Kynes to pleased in any sort of time-frame that would make Fremen Water Debt usable (Crysknifers, primarily?).

Fremen are generally standoffish and slow to trust outsiders, so it isn't easy to convince them to trade with you. I think this is in-character.
The *primary* benefits from Fremen Water Debt are the late-game Naib's Chosen/Wormrider and Fedaykin units. So you definitely aren't missing out on benefits of having good relations with Fremen.
It shouldn't be easy for non-Fremen to be fielding crysknife fighters in the early game.

-There is too large a distance in the tech tree from Sopho (Offworld trade) to Mentats.

I don't really see this as a major problem, but maybe we could give Sapho a small benefit in the early game?

 

[Deliverator]

It is very difficult to get Liet-Kynes to pleased in any sort of time-frame that would make Fremen Water Debt usable (Crysknifers, primarily?)

Fremen Water Debt also allows you to build the Worm Rider/Naib's Chosen unit and Fedaykin which is one of the best Melee fighters in the game.

Spice is not nearly important enough. It needs a buff, considering its value lorewise (or else, I just don't get what it does? Is the +1 stackable, and does it work in every city?)

You're not the first to say this. See the debate here. There are some ideas and plans around about expanding the role of spice. Also, it is possible to make very substantial income from the spice in the current mod.

 

[Ahriman]

It needs a buff, considering its value lorewise (or else, I just don't get what it does? Is the +1 stackable, and does it work in every city?)

The main benefit from spice comes from the house spice corporation. Build this in your capital, it generates very large commerce yields. I have had games where this is giving 130+ commerce, which can mean hundreds of beakers or gold per turn.

We need to advertise this effect better; maybe in one of the Sid's Tips messages?

 

[Diamondeye]

Ok, I didn't know about the lategame Fremen water debt thingies, thanks for correcting me there.

@Spice: I have noticed the Spice Firm effect and I must say it seems almost neglicable until 10+ spice sources. On all maps of standard size or more, 10 spice pools means you're dominating already.

Also, the Spice Firm produces 5g to compensate for its maintenance as coorp. However, if you have 0 spice (but have the corp), it has no maintenance and you will earn the 5g because the corp will be passive. This makes rush for a single spice source for the coorp and then ignoring spice (living inland this is often sound) can be viable (since you would need to keep a constant supply of something like 4-5 spice just to get the same yield out of it as you get from the building if you have no coorp maintenance).

 

[Ahriman]

On all maps of standard size or more, 10 spice pools means you're dominating already.

The mod isn't really well designed for small maps. Try a standard size map; 10 spice is easily achievable pretty early without being one of the dominant powers.
And you can easily have 30+ spice by the midgame and often 40+ by lategame in a standard area, without that meaning that you are dominating.
And with all the multipliers you can get in one city (academy, library, university = +100% beakers) that is a huge income.
Spice industry civic helps a lot too because it radically reduces the chance of spice resources running out.

This makes rush for a single spice source for the coorp and then ignoring spice (living inland this is often sound) can be viable

I don't think it takes 4-5 spice to break even. The marginal gains from spice are always larger than the maintenance cost. The +5 gold doesn't go away if you have 1-2 spice resources.
I don't think its true that you're better off with 0 spice than with 3 spice.

 

[Ahriman]

From my latest Harkonnen game:

I get 183 commerce from spice resources (and pay 7 gold in maintenance), which constitutes ~1/3 of my total commerce income (running a specialist economy under Meritocracy/Faufreluches/Arrakis Spice).

Thats pretty huge.

 

[Slvynn]

Spice is pretty cool and powerfull, i think it may need some more building, some slight boost but be more rare, and, sure, Arrakis Spice civin need boost because atm Paradise powns, Terraforming is easy victory to achieve, not enough punishment. There was final proposition of Ahriman that Guild will intervene if % of terraformed land is too hight and will stop trade via offworld trading.

 

[Diamondeye]

The mod isn't really well designed for small maps. Try a standard size map; 10 spice is easily achievable pretty early without being one of the dominant powers.
And you can easily have 30+ spice by the midgame and often 40+ by lategame in a standard area, without that meaning that you are dominating.
And with all the multipliers you can get in one city (academy, library, university = +100% beakers) that is a huge income.
Spice industry civic helps a lot too because it radically reduces the chance of spice resources running out.

Good points, especially the ones about Spice running out. But I refuse to believe you are not dominating on a standard map with 30-40 Spice. I've played standard a couple of times and realized, when I had about 10-15 spice, that the rest of the game would be steamrolling AIs (I am taking them on two at a time without losing ground at all). This is with the Ix leader, mind you, nothing warmongerish at all.

I don't think it takes 4-5 spice to break even. The marginal gains from spice are always larger than the maintenance cost. The +5 gold doesn't go away if you have 1-2 spice resources.
I don't think its true that you're better off with 0 spice than with 3 spice.

That's not what I said. I said the 5 gold evens out the maintenance. That means:
0 spice: 5 gold (no maintenance for passive coorp!)
1 spice: 3 commerce (the gold is now used for maintenance)
2 spice: 6 commerce
3 spice: 9 commerce
etc...

So when faced with only 2-3 spice pools (that could extinguish or be pillaged by worms) when you already have the firm, early game where there are few multipliers, it's almost useless. What my point was is that it should NEVER be useless to harvest spice, because, if it wasn't for spice, the planet would be a backwater nothingness.

That said, I have only just started playing the mod, so I might lack some challenging late-game situations.

 

[Slvynn]

I won few games just because spice (sure it would be easier game if i was going to Paradise, but only in terms of time) . there are plently synergies in game that can boost your spice income by crazy amounts. SE of DW is quite powerfull, there are plently of civics that boost specialists, Landsraad religion, alot of traderoutes and very hight food is also possible in certain cities. Tripling your tech rate just because spice - that sounds normal to me, and that trippled tech rate (even temporary, but hey there are some respawns of spice can happen too) - is great gain.

The point that things are not bad , not that bad as you tell us, not bad at all, i'd say. Yep, as i feel it need some slight boost , some more mechanics involved perhaps, because of reasons i mentioned already, but overall - Spice is important and vital in this game, and provides power. (Be carefull though if you have powerfull Atriedes/Freemen around, they will DoW you soon enough.

 

[Ahriman]

But I refuse to believe you are not dominating on a standard map with 30-40 Spice

*shrug* It happens. The only thing that determines your spice access is your terrain, time and some luck.
You don't need that much terrain to control 30+ spice resources. You can easily get that by late-midgame controlling only say 1/7 of the world's land.

But you're also digging yourself into a circular argument:
"Spice isn't powerful enough, because if you have lots of spice then you are winning."

Why do you think you managed to be winning? Because you had a big spice income.

I'm not sure exactly how corporation maintenance works; it can be a complex formula.

But it certainly doesn't seem to be -5; it seems to me to be -3 gold. (Note: gold penalties are post-city boosters like banks and libraries, commerce boosts are pre-boost).

So:
0 spice = +5 gold
1 spice = +3 commerce, +(5-3=2) gold.
2 spice = +6 commerce, +2 gold
3 spice = +9 commerce, +2 gold

So when faced with only 2-3 spice pools (that could extinguish or be pillaged by worms) when you already have the firm, early game where there are few multipliers, it's almost useless.

And in any case, if you only have 2-3 spice then you are either:
a) in the very early game
b) using Arrakis paradise civic (which severely limits the amount of spice you can pull in)
c) incredibly unlucky with spice blows and spice resource deletion
d) failing to build cities near the coast or build cultural buildings to expand your terrain.

And can you really think of a way that *doesn't* have this mild problem with the first 1-2 spice? There isn't any easy way to boost the yield of only the first 2 spice resources.
Its a necessary evil given how corporations work.

What exactly is it you are proposing to change?

 

[davidlallen]

At some beelined Genetic Manipulation. When researched - it gave me to choose religion (Oo) i took Technocracy, and it got founded in my city!! There also in tech tree BTl religion marked in Genetic Manipulation. So, perhaps it is last there from previous religious system, but need to be removed, bc i just founded Technocracy as BTl at Genetic Manipulation

Good find. The game assumes that a religion has *some* prerequisite tech, but this religion does not. If it has no prereq tech, every religion founding gets the "choose religion" screen. I will have to figure out some way to fix this.

Reference: SL01

 

[davidlallen]

My suggestion for slaves:
a) Drop the capture probability to 50% for Harkonnen (from 100%)
b) Have the slavery civic give a +20% slave capture chance
c) Give slaves 2 movement points
d) Allow slaves to cross desert tiles, same as workers.
e) Have captured slaves spawn either outside enemy cultural borders, inside friendly cultural borders, in the closest friendly city, or in the capital city.
f) Maybe: allow slaves to be sacrificed in cities for a very small one-shot hammer bonus.

a,b: good idea to reduce the number of slaves and give more synergy to slavery civic.

c,d: good idea to make slaves more useful.

e: good idea, need to figure out how to do it.

f: I can add the action button, like for great engineer but only a small number of hammers. I am pretty sure the AI won't know how to use it.

I also had thought about sacrificing slaves for XP added to one unit, representing arena combat. I'm quite sure the AI won't know how to use it, and also I'm not sure how to implement it. You'd need some way to pick which unit gets the XP, if there are multiple units in the city.

 

[davidlallen]

The stack got attacked by a Quad that killed a defending Infantry. ... However, the rest of the stack got transported outside Harkonnen territory.

I have never heard of that. I can't think of any reason for it. Has anybody else ever seen this, or have you seen it again?

Also, I second that barb Crysknifers spawn way too fast. I think this is because the tech (which, as you said, dissipates to barbs when players have it) is fairly early, but the players need the Water Debt ressource to get the unit, whilst the barbs pretty much ignore ressource demands.

Interesting point that barbs spawn units without meeting resource requirements. I suppose this is probably true for vanilla axemen. The only way I know of to solve this is to prevent them altogether, but I agree these are very thematic units for the barbs to have. Let's try to find some other solution.

Reference: DI01

 

[davidlallen]

Well, i took a rest this weekend .. Please , its very important, chek by uself because it ruins challenge and AI goodness : AI dont know to defend in DW.

These are all good observations. Do you play vanilla games very much? Do you find that the AI in vanilla makes the same mistakes? It is important to know that, so we know where to investigate the code. If vanilla does just as badly, then we need to discuss with the BBAI team. If vanilla does well, then there must be something we have done in DW, which makes it hard for the AI to figure out. For example, DW has no roads but it has the Home Ground promotion. It *could be* that the AI does not understand the HG promo, and we have to teach that somehow.

Both of these choices are hard to work on, but we can certainly put it on the list to investigate.

Reference: SL02

 

[davidlallen]

I notice that when spice disappears, the created spice crawler stays. Shouldn't it be 'destroyed' when there isn't any more spice?

Several people have reported this. I have tried to reproduce it, but I cannot. Ahriman suggested it happens only when the tile is worked. What I did was increase the rate at which spice disappears by like 100x, then check every few turns to see if I could see any harvesters which were not on spice. I was not able to find any. Can some people play around with this and see if there is a pattern?

 

[Diamondeye]

I have never heard of that. I can't think of any reason for it. Has anybody else ever seen this, or have you seen it again?



Interesting point that barbs spawn units without meeting resource requirements. I suppose this is probably true for vanilla axemen. The only way I know of to solve this is to prevent them altogether, but I agree these are very thematic units for the barbs to have. Let's try to find some other solution.

Reference: DI01

I have not been able to reproduce the Quad incident. But they can still travel on Mesa, and so can Suspensor crafts.

The solution could be giving Soldiers/Infantry +50% attack vs melee units. It would make it easier to pick off solo Crysknifers without ruining the function of later melee units because you'd obviously be moving them in stacks and defense bonuses for the guardsmen in cities would render it unfavourable to attack out.

These are all good observations. Do you play vanilla games very much? Do you find that the AI in vanilla makes the same mistakes? It is important to know that, so we know where to investigate the code. If vanilla does just as badly, then we need to discuss with the BBAI team. If vanilla does well, then there must be something we have done in DW, which makes it hard for the AI to figure out. For example, DW has no roads but it has the Home Ground promotion. It *could be* that the AI does not understand the HG promo, and we have to teach that somehow.

Both of these choices are hard to work on, but we can certainly put it on the list to investigate.

Reference: SL02

I can think of one very reasonable mistake the AI would make, like I am quite certain it could do in FfH if you haste one of their units for one turn; they give "go to" orders with the info that the unit moves faster than it actually will once the promo fades.

I could also imagine that the presence of so much unpassable terrain makes it harder for the AI to manage defenses, since it needs to protect all cities reachable by 'sea' (meaning sand), and moving units across sand in transports. The exception to this is obviously Fremen, who do very well in most of my games.