1.6 feedback

[keldath]

hi again:

i think there's two bugs with the homeworld screen:

1. theres no sound during the movie of the navigator - thought theres a sequance sound file.

2. when your short on money, and you try to order in a unit - when i pressed on the transport button, it says "select at least one unit"
i think it should say - "insignificant solaris" , for some reason when i did this 450 turns into the game - it crashed the game.



**ahriman,

good ideas you got there.

and yeah, heart plug is form david lynch only...

 

[Slvynn]

Yep but game contain already aloooot of stuff from emperror, however....

MAin point that yes Slaves are too weak. Ahriman, i played alot of games already, and when i have 10+ workers slaves are useless, esp that they can not cross desert . Compare it to Ordos infiltrators, To other civs special abilities. Slaves are weak, and yes , having 10 workers is very easy espessialy if you capture some. I wont say this just because i desire to implement something, but because i playing civ well (well i beat emperror level easilly in vanilla/bts), and now kicking it in DW on immortal with no problems. Slaves are useless, with current mechanics. They cant build harvesters, and you anyways want alot of workers for harvesting puproses.

 

[koma13]

I like that idea with the heartplug.
So if ahriman can't think of a better reason to reject it, I would like to add it.
Svlynn, do you think you can make a button graphic?

theres no sound during the movie of the navigator - thought theres a sequance sound file.

Sure? Last time I tried, it was working.

2. when your short on money, and you try to order in a unit - when i pressed on the transport button, it says "select at least one unit"
i think it should say - "insignificant solaris" , for some reason when i did this 450 turns into the game - it crashed the game.

Well, it says "select at least one unit" because you haven't selected a unit (it doesn't look for the reason why you haven't select an unit).
I can improve that.

 

[Deliverator]

What i proposing is to add funny feature - pulling the heartplug, very important feature of harkonnen in books.

You should read the books, it will help you separate what is truly Dune from what is David Lynch (heartplugs, weirding modules, spontaneous nosebleeds, etc). This mod is seeking to be true to the Frank Herbert books first, although we are drawing some content from other sources e.g. Westwood games, prequels.

 

[keldath]

hummm,
ok koma13,

can you check out the 1.6.2? and perhaps find the problem?

i think i tested 1.6 as well and there was no sound, cant remmber.


anyway - i had a crash during game with the ordos - perhaps an art thing, dont know yet, got no python error.

 

[Slvynn]

I can add button without any problem

and i was reading alot of SF in my childhood, including Dune and much more, and it was alot of time ago as i read that, then i watched movie (few times) , and played Dune related games. I didnt read book recently, yes. And you know perhaps its mixed in my head. Like 1 plot jumping on another one. I till last moment was sure that heartplug was in book, perhaps too much time passed. I didnt read all the books, few of them and i ordered ones i didnt for sure, I simply will like to read them in my mother language, which is not common in country i living in.

Game have plenty of features which are not-cannon, and gameplay wise - Harkonnen need some feature. There is nothing in books like instant production bonus for slave, as well as there is Harkonnen brutality and sadism and twisted . There are already Ordos, and many many things that add nice things to gameplay but are not cannon.

 

[koma13]

here is nothing in books like instant production bonus for slave, as well as there is Harkonnen brutality and sadism and twisted . There are already Ordos, and many many things that add nice things to gameplay but are not cannon.

Well, you could sacrifice them in a fighting arena. But I still prefer the idea with the heart plug.

can you check out the 1.6.2? and perhaps find the problem?
i think i tested 1.6 as well and there was no sound, cant remmber.

Yes, I will check it. The sound is a little melodic, often mixed into the background music. Maybe you just haven't noticed it?

anyway - i had a crash during game with the ordos - perhaps an art thing, dont know yet, got no python error.

When pressing the transport button?

 

[Deliverator]

I really hate the heartplug idea. It's one of the most un-Dunish aspects of the film.

We have discussed in the past that Slaves could be sacrificed in gladiatorial combat in the arena for some bonus which I think is much more Dunish idea. I'll quote from david's original plans for the Harkonnen slaves.

Harkonnan slaves. Whenever a Harkonnan unit wins a combat, there is a 75% chance it will create a slave. The slave is a fast worker which can build any improvement, but it dies when the improvement is finished. In the future we may change this so that it can be killed in a city to give a hammer bonus (worked to death in the factories), or an XP bonus (dies in the arena).

I would like to see both the work to death in the factory and kill in the arena uses implemented.

But please, no heartplugs.

 

[Slvynn]

I really hate the heartplug idea. It's one of the most un-Dunish aspects of the film.

We have discussed in the past that Slaves could be sacrificed in gladiatorial combat in the arena for some bonus which I think is much more Dunish idea. I'll quote from david's original plans for the Harkonnen slaves.



I would like to see both the work to death in the factory and kill in the arena uses implemented.

But please, no heartplugs.

Sure sure, no intention to break alreayd decent job done by You, ahriman, david and team. No intentions. I was simply saying that Harkonnen need their slaves being taken to other level of usefulness. More interesting mechanics, more buffs. Really, they even cant enter desert.

 

[Deliverator]

many many things that add nice things to gameplay but are not cannon.

This is true, but I think it is one of the unique and attractive aspects of the mod that we are trying to be truer to the books. I'm fine with adding stuff from other sources and have done, but the books are still the richest and best source of inspiration in my opinion. I'm not saying we should have only canon stuff at all, it's just that the books should be the primary inspiration.

 

[Ahriman]

MAin point that yes Slaves are too weak.

Slaves serve a useful purpose; they don't have to be incredibly powerful. Adn they do not need to be the *only* Harkonnen feature. It sounds like what you're really saying is "slaves are underpowered if they are the only Harkonnen feature". But this doesn't need to be the case. If we ever get into some civ-specific spy missions, I could imagine a "Traitor" mission that instantly bombs a cities defenses down to zero (they build up again normally, but if you use it just before an assault....).
We could also re-adapt the Atreides unit-spawn. I think weak conscripted levy troops in high quantity would be very Harkonnen.
(Maybe the troops could appear with a "conscript" promotion that gave a -10% strength penalty?)

And besidse, the early game boost they give you can be very large, so that is still valuable even if you don't use them much in the lategame.

And did you even read my proposal? You're complaining about things (like no desert access) that my propsal would remove. It would also reduce the total number of slaves.
Also, what game speed are you playing? At Epic speed advanced improvements take a long time to build.

Heartplugs are also just stupid, as well as un-canon. If you want to kill someone, stab them or shoot them. Don't build some kind of device into their heart.

I'd have no problem with sacrificing the slave for say 15 turns of +1 happy.
Can the AI evaluate the benefit of that though?

 

[Slvynn]

Yep i saw what you posted, and thats seems fine , i like also Deliverators ideas on arena. Hapiness just seems to be more apporiate way of boosting than insant hammers (well, slave is not made from metal/minerals, isnt it), but brutal Harks will be happy to see someone dying violently.
Also, you said that , they need to gain acess to desert. Best puprose for them is building harvesters, game mechanic wise, because you dont care if one die suddenly to worm, and building harvesters might be tricky and big job.

I paying Epic always, and its not problem. I have big amount of workers because: i capture them, because i build them alot when i have surplus of food but nothing to build (before i tech protected trade to build wealth), i build them alot to make fast harvesters with multiple workers before worm even get close to my harvesters (this way you make it fast and not bring attention of worm to harvs). So workers cant be replaced with slaves. Having alot of workers is not a problem in game. And numerous slaves are just useless, providing very minor bonus which surely makes no change to my empire well-faring.

 

[Ahriman]

(well, slave is not made from metal/minerals, isnt it),

You're working them to death in a labor camp. Hammers aren't just materials, they are output.

but brutal Harks will be happy to see someone dying violently

Keep in mind; the Harkonnens are like the ruling royal family. While their predilictions influence their officers and the other senior officials, the basic masses under their rule are just people.
Most of the people on Giedi Prime aren't Harkonnens.

 

[Slvynn]

Yep sure, i have no intentions to question ways of implementation. Lets focus on major point. Harks need something for sure.
I simply liked less hammer bonus because it can be exploted by human player , though it seem to be viable too, i am talking about wonders, good warmonering Harkonnen will be able to build wonders better than any Industrial guy.

 

[Ahriman]

I simply liked less hammer bonus because it can be exploted by human player

How can a human exploit it differently from the AI? Other than by knowing to send the slaves to low production cities?
If its only like 10 hammers per slave, its not really going to help you build wonders much.
The AI can use them to build wonders too.

 

[Slvynn]

How can a human exploit it differently from the AI? Other than by knowing to send the slaves to low production cities?
If its only like 10 hammers per slave, its not really going to help you build wonders much.
The AI can use them to build wonders too.

Well depends what amount of hammers , but yes 10 wil not do much difference. So far i agree with that your changes will fix situation. I mean allowing them to travel on desert, lessen their numbers (not 100%, 100% seems to be unrealistic, some freedom loving freeman will fight till death but never allow submission of themselves to being HArkonnen slaves), and adding hammer function.)

 

[Ahriman]

I know I'm being a little ridiculous here, but just for reference:

1) Fremen. Not Freeman.
2) Cannon and canon are different words in English. Cannon is like the weapon. Canon means doctrinal, or official.

/end pedantry

 

[Slvynn]

Also, another thing - Stillsuit promo can be taken before Stillsuit technology is researched. It seems to be odd and not "right".

Mortar have sound of catapult.

as for your last post - no problems, i am not strict with things i am typing , and i making alot of typos and mistakes (i am not native english speaker) , but thanks for your effort to make it better.

 

[Ahriman]

Yeah, the stillsuit promotions needs to be reconsidered. +1 movement is just wrong for stillsuits too. It should probably be something like desert combat strength.

Maybe this would solve one of our issues (land units getting the desert combat promotion despite being unable to enter desert):
i) Make the normal desert combat promotion available only to suspensors and thopters
ii) Have stillsuits be the same as the desert combat promotion (+20% strength in desert and deep desert) but only availble to melee and guardsmen units, and require the sandrider promotion, so it is only availble to units that can enter and fight in deserts.

I like before how we had a Fremen Sietch building that gave stillsuits for free to units built there - maybe a Fremen national wonder?

 

[Slvynn]

Yeah, the stillsuit promotions needs to be reconsidered. +1 movement is just wrong for stillsuits too. It should probably be something like desert combat strength.

Maybe this would solve one of our issues (land units getting the desert combat promotion despite being unable to enter desert):
i) Make the normal desert combat promotion available only to suspensors and thopters
ii) Have stillsuits be the same as the desert combat promotion (+20% strength in desert and deep desert) but only availble to melee and guardsmen units, and require the sandrider promotion, so it is only availble to units that can enter and fight in deserts.

I like before how we had a Fremen Sietch building that gave stillsuits for free to units built there - maybe a Fremen national wonder?

How about Stillsuit promo will act as old sandrider for units that normally cant enter to desert, so they will be able to enter a desert (hey thats seems canon right!)?
and all units of Fremen will start with Stillsuit and sandrider, When sandrider will be +25% defence (hey he is on worm, its hard to hit THAT!) and double movement in desert.

Summary:
Stillsuit : can enter desert.
Sandrider - double movement in desert, +25 defence. (may be not double , just +1, but all guards/melees are 1 movement, so difference will be only with Homeland promotion)