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1204: The Greeks under Latin rule.

christos200

Never tell me the odds
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Proluge

1204 A.D the crusaders, the holy army of the god, instead of fighting the <<evil>> Muslims in egypt they first suck Zara, the citizens of Zara made reference to the fact that they were fellow Catholics by hanging banners marked with crosses from their windows and the walls of the city, but nevertheless the city fell after a brief siege, and then the city of city of the cities, holy Constantinople. The most rich city of the world was at the hands of the crusaders. The crusaders inflicted a horrible and savage sacking on Constantinople for three days, during which many ancient and medieval Roman and Greek works were either stolen or destroyed. The magnificent Library of Constantinople was destroyed. The Crusaders ruthlessly and systematically violated the city's churches and monasteries, destroying, defiling, or stealing all they could lay hands on; nothing was spared. It was said that the total amount looted from Constantinople was about 900,000 silver marks. The Venetians received 150,000 silver marks that was their due, while the Crusaders received 50,000 silver marks. A further 100,000 silver marks were divided evenly up between the Crusaders and Venetians. The remaining 500,000 silver marks were secretly kept back by many Crusader knights.

The greeks under the Latin rule

A large part of greece icame under Latin rule. The relations, between the Latins forgeiners that took over greece and the local greeks, werent and the best.

Both greek and latin sources say that the latins conquerors were violent against the greeks but mostly of all the greek orthodox priests. Michael honiatis( &#924;&#921;&#967;&#945;&#942;&#955; &#967;&#969;&#957;&#943;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#962;) says that the conquerors for no reason did many atrocities against the orthodox priest in order to convert them to catholicism.

Michael honiatis says that the Latins loved too much the money, they stole many books from his own library, and the local greeks didnt even dared to speak freely in frond of the Latins. Many locals greeks decided to leave in the greek empire of Nikaia or they fought in the mountains against the Latins.

But there was one god thing in all thse. Greek natinalism become to emerge.

The revival of the greeks

After the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders, Greek nationalism accentuated. Nicetas Choniates insisted on using the name "Hellenes", stressing the outrages of the "Latins" against the "Hellenes" in the Peloponessus and how the Alfeios River might carry the news to the barbarians in Sicily, the Normans. Nicephorus Blemmydes referred to the Byzantine emperors as Hellenes, and Theodore Alanias wrote in a letter to his brother that "the homeland may have been captured, but Hellas still exists within every wise man". The second Emperor of Nicaea, John III Ducas Vatatzes, wrote in a letter to Pope Gregory IX about the wisdom that "rains upon the Hellenic nation". He maintained that the transfer of the imperial authority from Rome to Constantinople was national and not geographic, and therefore did not belong to the Latins occupying Constantinople: Constantine's heritage was passed on to the Hellenes, so he argued, and they alone were its inheritors and successors. His son, Theodore II Lascaris, was eager to project the name of the Greeks with true nationalistic zeal. He made it a point that "the Hellenic race looms over all other languages" and that "every kind of philosophy and form of knowledge is a discovery of Hellenes... What do you, O Italian, have to display?"

The evolution of the name was slow and did never replace the "Roman" name completely. Nicephorus Gregoras named his historical work Roman History. Emperor John VI Cantacuzenus, a big supporter of Greek education, in his own memoirs always refers to the Byzantines as "Romans", yet, in a letter sent by the sultan of Egypt, Nasser Hassan Ben Mohamed, referred to him as "Emperor of the Hellenes, Bulgars, Sassanians, Vlachs, Russians, Alanians" but not of the "Romans". Over the next century, George Gemistus Plethon pointed out to Constantine Palaeologus that the people he leads are "Hellenes, as their race and language and education testifies", while Laonicus Chalcondyles was a proponent of completely substituting "Roman" terminology for "Greek" terminology .Constantine Palaeologus himself in the end proclaimed Constantinople the "refuge for Christians, hope and delight of all Hellenes". On the other hand, the same Emperor in his final speech before the Empire's demise called upon his audience to rally to the defenses by characteristically referring to them as "descendants of Hellenes and Romans", most possibly as an attempt to combine Greek national sentiment with the Roman tradition of the Byzantine crown and Empire, both highly respected elements in his subjects' psyche at that moment.

The catholic church tries to destroy greek orthodox christianity

Innocent III, Pope and leader of catholicism not only didnt stoped the Fourth Crusade but it helped it.

The establishment of the Latin Empire in 1204 was intended to supplant the Orthodox Byzantine Empire. This is symbolized by many Orthodox churches being converted into Roman Catholic properties and churches like Hagia Sophia and Church of the Pantokrator, and it is viewed with some rancor to the present day. Some of the European Christian community actively endorsed the attacking of Eastern Christians.

The patriarch of the Latin empire, Morozini, closed many greek orthodox churches.


sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Orthodox_Church#The_Crusades_against_the_Eastern_Orthodox

I thank everyone who read this. :) Please say your opinion.
 
Next time i will write about:

Rome: A divided empire

I will post my opinion why the roman empire was divided before the political division. Because the roman empire was already divided at 100 A.D.
 
First of all, your colorful language in no way amplifies your article, but instead magnifies its bias. It doesn't help, it makes it seem ridiculous.

Second of all, there are no citations anywhere in your article, neither to primary nor secondary sources. This is perhaps alright if you're regurgitating your teacher's words in high school or below, but not in any sort of scholarly environment. It's begging your audience to take you for your word without any factual evidence, which is unacceptable since as you're about to see, there are serious disputes about your thesis and conclusion.

Three, there's serious problems with several of your claims (like the emergence of Greek nationalism in the 13th century when nationalism didn't exist for five more centuries), but the one I'm going to focus on is the following, since its wrongness is appalling to me:

Innocent III, Pope and leader of catholicism not only didnt stoped the Fourth Crusade but it helped it.

As I already said, this is preposterous and factually unprovable. Excuse me a for a somewhat abbreviated post; I'm going to assume that readers of this thread already know the basic circumstances of 1202-1204. This is why the Fourth Crusade originally diverged from an assault on Jerusalem to across the Adriatic:

In August [of 1202], Dandolo met with the crusade leaders. He pointed out that the Venetians had met their obligations to the letter and reminded them of their great patience thus far. Payment was already four months late, and they could wait no longer. He demanded that the crusaders pay what they owed. The leaders agreed with the doge... A solution was needed--and right away. Soon it would be October, when voyages on the Mediterannean stopped altogether. The council suggested a compromise... If the crusaders would agree to assist Venice in returning Zara to obedience, then the Venetians would suspend the crusaders' debt until they could acquire it in war booty. The crusade would spend the winter at Zara and depart for Egypt in the spring. (pgs. 102-103)

After it the crusaders had helped the Venetians with their military expedition, the Pope demanded penance from the crusaders (pg. 105). As events unfolded, eventually attention turned towards Constantinople, to which the Magisterial response was:

Innocent III knew all about Alexius Angelus and his promises. The young man had already visited the pope to ask for assistance in his bid for the throne. Innocent sent him packing and later informed Boniface of Montferrat that the crusade was to have nothing to do with this scheme. The pope, therefore, was not happy when he learned that his penitent soldiers were once again disobeying his commands. He wrote a strongly worded letter to the crusaders forbidding them to travel to Byzantium:

"Let no one among you rashly convince himself that he may seize or plunder Greek lands on the pretext that they show little obedience to the Apostolic See, or because the emperor of Constantinople deposed his brother, blinded him, and usurped the empire." (pg. 106)

Source: The New Concise History of the Crusades: Revised Edition (2005) by Thomas F. Madden (Rowman & Littlefield Publishers: New York).

In summary: The Fourth Crusade had nothing to do with some alleged Catholic conspiracy to exterminate Greek Orthodoxy. Religion was only in a very peripheral way an influence on the sacking of Constantinople, and the Papacy tried to avert it.

Four,


This is in no way an acceptable bibliography, especially since briefly skimming over these articles indicates that they suck.
 
summary: The Fourth Crusade had nothing to do with some alleged Catholic conspiracy to exterminate Greek Orthodoxy. It was a combination of Venetian manipulation of the crusaders, who were in a severe financial debt due to delays in embarking to the Levant, as well as instability in Constantinople where crusaders ended up due to bizarre circumstances. The Pope had no intention of fighting the Roman Empire, and in fact warned against it. Far from religion being a motive in the sack of Constantinople, religion impeded it.

But the pope at first threatend the crusaders but at the end he said << hey since the crusaders destroyed those hereticals greeks why i dont get some money the crusaders want to give and make the orthodox christians catholics>>.

Even if the pope didnt planned it, he wasnt and very angry with it. In fact he was verry happy.

You must be catholic or italian, eh?
 
But the pope at first threatend the crusaders but at the end he said << hey since the crusaders destroyed those hereticals greeks why i dont get some money the crusaders want to give and make the orthodox christians catholics>>.

Citation needed. I already posted the letter that Innocent III sent to the crusaders explicitly warning them against raising their sword against Byzantium.

You must be catholic or italian, eh?

Catholic, sure. More relevant at the moment is that I'm also an enthusiast toward good history.
 
Nevertheless, the Pope's negative reaction was short-lived. When the crusaders took the piles of money, jewels, and gold that they had captured in the sack of Constantinople back to Rome, Innocent III welcomed the stolen items and agreed to let the crusaders back into the Church. Furthermore at the Fourth Council of the Lateran the Pope welcomed and recognised to it western (Catholic) prelates from Sees established in the conquered lands &#8211; thus recognising their legitimacy over formerly Orthodox areas.
 
I'm waiting on those citations of yours that will give any sort of factual validity to any claim you've made thus far.
 
In 2004, Pope John Paul II extended a formal apology for the sacking of Constantinople in 1204; the apology was formally accepted by Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople. Many things that were stolen during this time: holy relics, riches, and many other items, are still held in various Western European cities, particularly Venice.

Why the pope apologises if the holy see has nothing to do with the Fourth Crusade?
 
It was a gesture of good will. Unless you think John Paul II was Pope in 1204 or one of the crusaders, this isn't a relevant source and is in no way a valid citation to any claim you have made thus far. Not just about this, but your entire article.
 
So Mr Catholic all those latins and greek sources that say that the latins conquerors were violent against the greeks but mostly of all the greek orthodox priests are wrong?
 
Didn't we have enough "mock the OP" threads lately? :(
However, to the OP: I think that you need to stop just copying stuff from the web. Ah, the taste of copypasta with ketchup and sausages on the side...
Far from religion being a motive in the sack of Constantinople, religion impeded it.
Well, "religion" is a wider category then "papacy" and I dare say some knights enjoyed sacking the city of these heretical Greeks, no matter what the Pope says.
 
So Mr Catholic all those latins and greek sources that say that the latins conquerors were violent against the greeks but mostly of all the greek orthodox priests are wrong?

I didn't say the crusaders weren't violent, since that wasn't what I was nitpicking. Of course, that doesn't actually matter since you haven't posted any Greek or Latin sources to begin with.

Well, "religion" is a wider category then "papacy" and I dare say some knights enjoyed sacking the city of these heretical Greeks, no matter what the Pope says.

They certainly didn't sack the city because their religion told them to, and I'm at a loss as to how you would blame Catholicism because the crusaders ignored its moral precepts.
 
For the catholics the greeks were hereticals. So with the catholic logic muslims and hereticals should be slained. I know that you dont beleive what i say beacause you are catholic but see the truth.
 
For the catholics the greeks were hereticals. So with the catholic logic muslims and hereticals should be slained. I know that you dont beleive what i say beacause you are catholic but see the truth.

Eastern Orthodoxy has never been considered heretical by the Catholic Church. Even ignoring that grievous factual inaccuracy, your logic is amazingly dubious, since the Catholic Church has never ordered a mass genocide against Muslims or heretics. (Heresy was punishable by death in certain places and times in the middle ages, but only as its secondary dimension of being political dissension. E.g., the Albigensians in France were a militarized faction in addition to being a religious heresy, so they were at war with the Capetian dynasty, although similar heretics weren't necessarily violently persecuted by the Catholic Church in the same era.)

Still waiting on the factual citations.
 
and I'm at a loss as to how you would blame Catholicism because the crusaders ignored its moral precepts.
I'd say that "the perception of Greeks being schismatics" rather then "Catholicism" or "papacy" played a role here, though more of a post-factum justification then anything. I doubt that the knights who sacked the churches of Constantinople didn't attempt a rationalization like that one.
So with the catholic logic muslims and hereticals should be slained.
Though this is not "Catholic logic".
 
I'd say that "the perception of Greeks being schismatics" rather then "Catholicism" or "papacy" played a role here, though more of a post-factum justification then anything. I doubt that the knights who sacked the churches of Constantinople didn't attempt a rationalization like that one.

I agree.
 
Indeed it is not Catholic logic as any reader of Pope Innocent III's Reprimand of Peter, a Papal Legate (July 1204) would see.

He very clearly condemned the action and bemoaned its consequences for ecclesiastical unity between the greek church and the west.

You can read it for yourself here both in English and in the original Latin.

http://www.crusades-encyclopedia.com/psinnocentiii1204.html
 
No. An Ultra-nationalist Greek vs. historians is more correct
 
Who happen to be ultra-Catholic. BTW I'm not disputing what they posted here, just that it's kind of a funny situation.
 
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