Huayna Capac357
Deity
EDIT: Returning to this 2 years later, I see how stupid it is.
1421
- Thread starter Huayna Capac357
- Start date
North King
blech
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No! There's not a shred of evidence for it beyond hearsay, obscure written accounts which could well be forged, circumstantial physical evidence, and a lot of guesswork.
On the other hand, we have Chinese court records pointing to a much, much less extensive series of voyages, confirmation of said shorter voyages that is entirely lacking for the hypothetical circumnavigation, and strong physical evidence for the same.
If those treasure ships did cross the Atlantic or Pacific, they were being very careful to not leave an impression -- which wasn't at all the style of the other Chinese missions, which were an effort to project Chinese influence and power. Moreover, if the Chinese had made contact with native North America, which was very densely populated at the time, or native South America, which was even more so, diseases would have spread like wildfire there. Since they didn't, and the Europeans' smallpox wiped out a hemisphere later, I'm forced to conclude these Chinese voyages never happened.
On the other hand, we have Chinese court records pointing to a much, much less extensive series of voyages, confirmation of said shorter voyages that is entirely lacking for the hypothetical circumnavigation, and strong physical evidence for the same.
If those treasure ships did cross the Atlantic or Pacific, they were being very careful to not leave an impression -- which wasn't at all the style of the other Chinese missions, which were an effort to project Chinese influence and power. Moreover, if the Chinese had made contact with native North America, which was very densely populated at the time, or native South America, which was even more so, diseases would have spread like wildfire there. Since they didn't, and the Europeans' smallpox wiped out a hemisphere later, I'm forced to conclude these Chinese voyages never happened.
Huayna Capac357
Deity
EDIT: See OP
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
I do believe it in a way, BUT, however, I definitely do not believe it to the extent that was suggested in the book. It is plausible that a few ships, even one fleet, managed to make it to America. Whether they made a lasting impression is not probable.
However, I am certain that they must have gone to Australia, or at least the Northern Tip - it is quite probable that their Indian merchant comrades did so as well when the accidentally sailed off course.
However, I am certain that they must have gone to Australia, or at least the Northern Tip - it is quite probable that their Indian merchant comrades did so as well when the accidentally sailed off course.
Hasn't most of his theory been debunked by proper historians? and for that matter who really cares if the Chinese were the first to discover America what matters were which nations were the first to settle/conquer/exploit it.
see here for what seem like to an amateur historian myself a good debunking of his theory.
http://www.1421exposed.com/
see here for what seem like to an amateur historian myself a good debunking of his theory.
http://www.1421exposed.com/
North King
blech
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Quite honestly? Yes.
Read When China Ruled the Seas by Louise Levathes to get a different perspective. The truth about the voyages is much more interesting -- to me, at least -- than Menzies' material.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
Even if the Chinese did have colonies in the Americas and what not, and even if the Europeans' voyages were significantly helped by the CHinese navigators, for better or worse, it was the Europeans that came to dominate the world. That is why we're writing in a latin-based alphabet and not CHinese characters, why most of us are Christian and not Buddhist, and why most of us know and make a hero of Columbus more than Zheng He, even though in my opinion the latter was much more capable.
I am forced to vote no because I don't agree entirely with the book. I will admit there is some circumstantial evidence available to support Menzies' hypothesis, but unfortunately, it is not conclusive by any stretch of the word. Not to mention he draws conclusions that are tenuous at best.
I have read the book, by the way, as well as some opposing viewpoints. But my specialization in history is not on China, so my opinion should not count more than an amateur's on this subject.
I have read the book, by the way, as well as some opposing viewpoints. But my specialization in history is not on China, so my opinion should not count more than an amateur's on this subject.
Mirc
Not mIRC!!!
Probably not.
But whydiscuss that? We all know that the Vikings were there long before
My opinion exactly.
Pannonius
Reconquistador
I don't believe that theory. First of all, as North King wrote, they brought no diseases. That thing alone buries the theory.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Yeah ... of course; as they had aliens to guide them, how could they not have?! And please, if they didn't, please explain to me where Tiwanaku or the Maya pyramids came from?!
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
Althuogh one couold say conversely that there are no reliable surviving records that stated that Mayans were dying by the thousands before the Spaniards.
Althuogh it is still a good point you made there, I don't think it alone would bury the theory.
...
You mean hypothesis. A theory is supported by solid evidence (not only circumstantial), whereas a hypothesis is not (and needs testing).
EdwardTking
Deity
I think he overestimates the peak Chinese exploration surge in and around
1421 in so much as there was activity in previous decades and it is not
always possible to distinguish precisely when ships were wrecked.
There is evidence of population die offs possibly due to disease
before 1492 in the Yucatan peninsular and Mississippi valley.
1421 in so much as there was activity in previous decades and it is not
always possible to distinguish precisely when ships were wrecked.
There is evidence of population die offs possibly due to disease
before 1492 in the Yucatan peninsular and Mississippi valley.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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What do we call a theory supported by cherry-picked "facts" that turned out to be old known mistakes? A lie.
EdwardTking
Deity
Examples of those mistakes?
Or did they?
The period between 1420 - 1492 was one of great change in Mesoamerica. The Aztecs and Incas rise from obscurity to become the dominant power, while the powerful Mayan state of Mayapan collapses, and the culture of the Anasazi and the Missisippi valley both disappears around this time. It's too much of a coincidence imho.
Huayna Capac357
Deity
EDIT: This whole thread has fail.
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