1421

[Kahran Ramsus]

While it is plausible that the Chinese made pre-Columbian contact with the Americas, there simply is no evidence for it. Of course a century ago people were saying the same thing about the Norse, until conclusive proof was found in Newfoundland.

However, his argument that Columbus and the other European explorers in the Age of Discovery used Chinese maps and knew exactly where they were going is absurd and contradicts tons of sources from several nations. If Cabot knew where he was going why would he head to Newfoundland instead of the far more lucrative Caribbean? It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Perfection]

My pops said it was a load of trash, and that's good enough for me.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

EDIT: I was a noob. This was stupid.

 

[cybrxkhan]

^many wouoldnt. i can tell you that.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

EDIT: This was stupid.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

EDIT: I disavow all opinions expressed here.

 

[cybrxkhan]

i myself believe this:

Chinese discovering America is...

Possible: yes.

Plausible: yes.

as a extremely small scale expedition: maybe.

as a large scale expedition: hmm... probably not.

influencing the European explorers to a huge degree: very likely not.

 

[Antilogic]

as a extremely small scale expedition: probably...

This is where most historians diverge. The standard account says "probably not", and without more direct evidence (not the circumstantial evidence that Menzies is relying on), that is the way it will stay.

And, it doesn't matter if you want something to be true or not. I want the actual truth, irrelevant of how "cool" it is. I'm certain Stephen Colbert would have a ball with these last few posts...

 

[cybrxkhan]

This is where most historians diverge. The standard account says "probably not", and without more direct evidence (not the circumstantial evidence that Menzies is relying on), that is the way it will stay.

point taken. i changed my wording.

i did think, however, that something did happen. most likely not a massive expedition, but something. however, i must make a point here - let us just say, that, a real more credible historian does find evidence that a couple Chinese ships somehow said hello to the Aztecs, for example - however, who would believe him? still, i will agree that Menzies is not all too reliable on this. we'll just see.

then again, it doesn't relaly matter much, when China takes over the world it can brainwash us as much as it wants.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I don't see how China having made Pre-Columbian contact with the New World really changes anything. Even if they did, they obviously didn't have a major impact on it or on the events following which is Menzies' argument. The culture of the New World was distinctly American in 1492 and there is no evidence that it was anything otherwise prior to that.

Even in the bragging rights department of 'who was first', the Chinese would still have been beaten by the Europeans by some 420 years. So ultimately it ends up being a whole lot of hoopla about nothing even if it is true.

 

[cybrxkhan]

^generally agreed. althuogh there are other less well-known theries that stated the chinese discovered america c. 400 AD or c. 1000 BC... and then there are even more theories:

- Polynesians
- Malians/Songhainese/Ghanians
- Ancient Africans
- Egyptians
- Romans
- Phoenicians
- Greeks
- Ancient Pre-Viking Scandinavians
- Celts
- Welsh
- Knights Tempalrs
- Ancient Japanese
- Space Aliens

ack. and it goes on.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

^generally agreed. althuogh there are other less well-known theries that stated the chinese discovered america c. 400 AD or c. 1000 BC... and then there are even more theories:

- Polynesians
- Malians/Songhainese/Ghanians
- Ancient Africans
- Egyptians
- Romans
- Phoenicians
- Greeks
- Ancient Pre-Viking Scandinavians
- Celts
- Welsh
- Knights Tempalrs
- Ancient Japanese
- Space Aliens

ack. and it goes on.

Ugh..all a bunch of hearsay. Even if China did discover America they never made and impact to change/effect anything or matter at all. They definitely had the technology but frankly they lack the need or motivation to search for new lands becuase they are financially very secure. Europe had the tech AND had the motivation of mercantilism spurring them on to make more money through monopolizing the asian trade which currently went through a middle man. Therefore they sailed and found america in the process.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Even if China was for some odd reason the founder of the Aztec and Incan empires, the thing is that it was the Europeans that came to dominate the world, for better or worse. that is what really matters.

 

[North King]

No, it's not the only thing that matters, because knowledge about cultures is valuable in and of itself, and can act as a symbol for the present as well. Especially this baloney about China founding the most powerful of Native American civilizations, which, regardless of the intention, is damaging. It helps justify our taking over of their lands, and the genocide that followed. "They never built anything interesting unless they had outside help." It's the same old "bringing civilization to the savages" ideal, which is definitely not something I want hanging around in my history books.

Fact is, if they had utterly no impact that we could find, then believing in this voyages is completely silly. It's like believing that the entire Earth was ruled by an Atlantean Empire which, oh, by the way, was situated under Antarctica until the crust slipped around and the poles shifted to land it under solid ice, then vanished without a trace. It's frankly a little insulting to our ancestors to assume that they needed help in establishing their nations, and that all cultures have to spring from a single source.

 

[cybrxkhan]

It's frankly a little insulting to our ancestors to assume that they needed help in establishing their nations, and that all cultures have to spring from a single source.

that wouldn't be insulting to me.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Yeah! I'm American, and this is how it goes:

Mesopotamians->Etruscans->Romans(+ Celts)-> Britain-> America.

Everything that's American is borrowed from somewhere else.

 

[Traitorfish]

Mesopotamians->Etruscans->Romans(+ Celts)-> Britain-> America.

Well it's more like:

Mesopotamians
V
Phoenicians
V
Greeks
|---------V
|.......Etruscans
|----------|
V
Romans....Celts
|-----------|-------|
|-----------|----|...|
|-----------|......|...|
V V V
Romano-British Romano-Gallic.....Franks......Angles, Saxons, Jutes & Frisians
|......................|-------------|...................|
|----------------|-----------------------------|
V......................V
Anglo-Saxons.....French......................Norse
|----------------------------------------|
|........................|----------------------|
V........................V
English...........Normans
|-----------------V
V
British.....Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians, etc.
|----------|
V.............................. Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews, etc.
Anglo-Americans................|
|.....................................|
V
Americans

Needlessly complicated? Maybe. Accurate? Not completely. Worth the twenty minutes it took to create? Almost certainly not.

So, yeah, I have no good reason to post this.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

I was just giving examples. Most people would leave out the Etruscans .

 

[Pangur Bán]

Well it's more like:

Mesopotamians
V
Phoenicians
V
Greeks
|---------V
|.......Etruscans
|----------|
V
Romans....Celts
|-----------|-------|
|-----------|----|...|
|-----------|......|...|
V V V
Romano-British Romano-Gallic.....Franks......Angles, Saxons, Jutes & Frisians
|......................|-------------|...................|
|----------------|-----------------------------|
V......................V
Anglo-Saxons.....French......................Norse
|----------------------------------------|
|........................|----------------------|
V........................V
English...........Normans
|-----------------V
V
British.....Dutch, Germans, Scandinavians, etc.
|----------|
V.............................. Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews, etc.
Anglo-Americans................|
|.....................................|
V
Americans

Needlessly complicated? Maybe. Accurate? Not completely. Worth the twenty minutes it took to create? Almost certainly not.

So, yeah, I have no good reason to post this.

What do the Anglo-Saxons ... i.e. the English ... have to do with Ancient Greece?

 

[North King]

Yeah! I'm American, and this is how it goes:

Mesopotamians->Etruscans->Romans(+ Celts)-> Britain-> America.

Everything that's American is borrowed from somewhere else.

Utterly, horribly incorrect. Even the Europeans were influenced by the Native Americans.