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1512-1701 (An Odessy!)

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Aeon221, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    Haha thanks... big help there ;p

    I forgot to list impassable terrains, so here they are:

    Jungles, Deserts, Mountains, Plateaus, Marshes

    Workers and some scouts can traverse these terrain types (as well as a few UUs), but everything else is stuck. So dont worry about India-China or India-Persia

    Cities can only be built on:

    Plains, Hills, and Grasslands

    These rules are standard to Rhye's mod (except for the Desert... insider joke ;p)

    SE-Asia would be good because imperialism there was conquest.

    Mamelukes will be made pretty weak (no barracks, conscript defenders with weaker stats, etc) so no worries about them rising up against the Turks. However, I just think it would be nice to split things up a bit.

    SO here are the choices (in order of likelihood):

    1) Arabian civ
    2) SE-Asian civ
    9) Mayans ;p
     
  2. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    SEA civ!!! Dump the Mayan, you have already many civ in America if I don’t mistake. Civilizations were in Asia! Ayyuthaya was as big as Tenochtitlan and well bigger than any European city of that time. We want a Southeast Asian civ, I want Siam ;)!
     
  3. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    @P: Siam sounds pretty good, as thats an area I would like to see filled. Is it kosher for the era?

    MEANWHILE: thanks to the eggheads (haha) in the research thread, I am now on track for ships.

    The Caravel represented by the default animation is a Caravel Redonda (which is fine, since the Caravel Latina is an earlier version that just falls outside our scope).

    The Carrack seems fine, although the one represented in civ was one that had fallen out of use before the 16th century, as a 4 masted version was produced (an example would be the famous Mary Rose!)

    Strangely enough, the Civ Galleon ACTUALLY DOES look like a Galleon. It is pretty close to what the Golden Hind rebuild pictures I have found look like. Its a little too rounded (probably wanted to make it look more like a transport) but it is a pretty accurate look. Big problem is the stern area: http://www.greatgridlock.net/Sqrigg/sterns.jpg

    Look at that and then look at a C3 galleon if you want to know what I mean ;p

    The Golden Hind unit LL used in his scenario is an excellent example of a race (razed) built galleon, so theres the next step up. These Galleons had their fore and aft castles literally chopped off (hence the term razed... which ended up race).

    After the introduction of the race galleon, radical changes in ship design pretty much stop. Small improvements and changes are made to the basic desgin, the possible sizes increase, artillery improves, and rigging becomes more advanced, but nothing better emerges to replace the low charged (race) galleon up until the mid 19th cent, with the introduction of the steam powered ships.

    After that comes the line abreast formations with the correspondingly larger ships and heavier guns. I will use the British rating system, with the names 1st Rate, 2nd Rate, 3rd Rate, Frigate, Brig, Sloop for the ships that I intend to use in the last part of the scenario. I think there are animations available for all of them, but I am not 100%.

    Not sure whether to bother with the Galleass. I dont know enough about it either way, and neither of the two sites provided has anything on them. However, I do know that they were involved in Lepanto and the Armada, so I will try and figure something out.

    What you see above is the framework of the structure that will be the ship system of this mod. Yay! ;p
     
  4. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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  5. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    What means Kosher ?
    Anyway, it would fit the whole period fine. The question is, do you want to limit Siam/Ayyuthaya to its historical area (roughly today's Thailand) or extend it to cover areas occupied by Burmese, Khmers and Annamese?
    My suggestion is give Northern Vietnam to China, put barbarians in modern Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, and merge Ayythaya with the Khmers. You of course saw the great leaderhead available by R8XFT :)?
     
  6. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    Kosher is an expression which means, ignoring its religious roots, okay or proper.

    Expanding China a bit would work, but considering how small an area it is I might as well give it all to the Siamese and just call them South East Asian Kingdoms or something.

    I agree with your ideas on how to deal with the island civs, and I think that would work fine. It would really allow a showcasing of the genocidal actions undertaken by the Dutch to secure monopolies of various resources... with the additional benefit that the Dutch player could rationalize it as killing barbarians, just as the Dutch would have ;p

    I am def enjoying today's focus on research and theory, but I promise to get back to work tomorrow ;p
     
  7. Olorin0222

    Olorin0222 Maia

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    I did some graphic searches, and found a couple things of interest.

    The first is a landmark terrain graphic of the Great Wall that aaglo made. He has both a hilly and non-hilly version.

    The second is some Native American goodie huts that aaglo also made. I don't know for sure if you can just use the .pcx of these goodie huts for barbarian huts (especially for the former Woodland Tribe areas, but I know you can't just choose one particular area to have one hut graphic, and another graphic in another area). I think it is possible and probably not too hard to do, but I am at a college computer right now, so I can't look into it till later this afternoon.

    P.S. I will also try and get Russian colonies for you tonight.
     
  8. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    I have a hut graphic pack already (I need to figure out how to use it, but I do have it), so no worries there. Russian colonies would be nice... I had kinda forgotten we needed them ;p

    I guess I need to finish final placement of cities and begin work on Fog of War and roads. Then improvements and resources. Then bonus production to small states (either through buildings or hidden resources).

    I dont think I am going to include iron or horses in this scenario (*GASP* heresy i know!) because, like timber, they are things that pretty much every civ that needs them will have access to. There is no reason to force a dependence on a resource, and then share it with everyone.

    So once I finish placement of cities, its back to the notebook ;p

    As barbarians shouldnt be spawning in this one (I will look into what Rhye did to make this so and repeat it) no worries about having an igloo appear in Persia or something haha
     
  9. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    I have decided on the framework of the unit structure in my notebook. However, since I have a plane to catch... I will share it sometime tonight, maybe past midnight.

    the trip should give me time to finish this up a bit.
     
  10. Smoking mirror

    Smoking mirror Ships Captain

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    I would actualy recomend you do include timber as a resource, after the middle ages the great forests of europe were greatly depleted, finding the impressive trees needed for large navy's was difficult untill the discovery of huge pristine forests in America.

    I'd either make it needed for the biggest ships, or make it needed for a small wonder that produces (spawns) lots of cheap ships.
     
  11. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    @SM:

    No, and here is why:

    Timber is a European resource; giving it to the various Europeans would mean nothing. Its right there, they would be hooked up to it.

    The ships will require things like Spices and Sugar and Tobacco (depending on which nation for which ship) so that colonization is forced. To be frank, I really dont care about what things are required to build something in real life. Its not important in a set piece scenario like this one. If I were making a random map, then yes, timber, iron, horses, these things would be very important.
     
  12. Rhye

    Rhye 's and Fall creator

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    Sorry to disturb your thread, but you've got to play the blood eagle :)
     
  13. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    @Rhye: Your disturbance is most welcome! :mischief:

    Ground unit list (with explanation following, so read it before you start thinking ;p)

    THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE naval units or 'unique' units

    Base units (all civs):

    Merchant 0.1.1 Can carry treasure, boards all ships
    Explorer 0.0.1 ATAR, boards all ships
    Worker 0.0.1 Worker stuff

    Euros:

    Base Units:

    Town Guards 4.12.1 -1HP, no upkeep, base conscript unit
    Pikes 10.16.1
    Castle (DEPENDENT ON GRAPHICS) 0.25.0 (10.1.1) +4HP, transport 2

    1st set
    Crossbow 12.8.1 (2.0.1) Amphibious, boards all ships
    Knights 14.6.2 -1HP
    Bombard 0.0.1 (8.1.1)
    Pike and Crossbow Formation MUnit 14.16.1 (4.0.1) +3HP
    Pike and Knight Formation MUnit 18.12.1 +1HP

    2nd set
    Musket 16.12.1 (6.0.1) Amphibious, boards all ships
    Cavalry 15.8.2 -1HP
    Cannon 0.0.1 (20.1.3)
    Pike and Cannon Formation MUnit 15.17.1 (15.1.2)
    Pike and Musket Formation MUnit 14.20.1 (6.0.1) +3HP
    Pike and Cavalry Formation MUnit 18.16.1 +1HP

    ******

    Mid East, Mughal, Manchu:

    Base Units:
    Town Guards 4.12.1 no upkeep, base conscript unit
    Infantry 13.7.1 Amphibious, boards all ships, +1HP
    Horse Archers 13.5.2 (2.0.1) Blitz +1HP
    Bombard 0.0.1 (8.1.1)
    Infantry and Horse Archers Formation MUnit 17.15.2 +4HP


    Ottoman Only (Special Set, comes at same time as Euro set2):
    Janissary 15.11.1 Amphibious, boards all ships, +1HP
    Spahis 16.7.2 -1HP
    Cannon 0.0.1 (20.1.3)
    Janissaries and Spahis Formation MUnit 19.17.1 +4HP
    Janissaries and Cannon Formation MUnit 16.16.1 (10.1.1) +1HP

    ******

    Japan:

    Militia 3.10.1 -1HP, base conscript
    Samurai 10.12.1 +1HP
    Crossbowman 11.9.1 (4.0.1) Amphibious, boards all ships
    Horseman 9.3.2 -1HP
    Catapult 0.0.1 (6.1.1)
    Samurai and Crossbowman Formation MUnit 13.15.1 +4HP
    Samurai and Horseman Formation MUnit 16.10.1 +2HP

    ******

    China, Vijayanagara, Ayutthaya, Golden Horde:

    Militia 3.10.1 -1HP
    Pikeman 8.12.1
    Crossbowman 11.9.1 (4.0.1) Amphibious, boards all ships
    Horseman 9.3.2 -1HP
    Catapults 0.0.1 (6.1.1)
    Pikeman and Crossbowman Formation MUnit 8.15.1 +3HP
    Pikeman and Horseman Formation MUnit 14.11.1 +1HP

    China Only:

    Bombards 0.0.1 (8.1.1) (Replaces Catapult)
    Chinese Muskets 14.12.1 (6.0.1) (Replaces Crossbow)

    ******

    Central and South American Tribes:

    Spearman 6.8.1
    Archer/Slinger 8.6.1 (2.0.1)
    Runner 6.6.2
    Spearman and Archer/Slinger Formation MUnit 10.10.1 (4.0.1) +2HP
     
  14. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    Now for the explanation:

    The logic here is that a mixed company is greater than the sum of its parts. I wanted to represent that with units that ACTUALLY ARE mixed, unlike the usual game experience. These formations serve a variety of purposes, but mostly I just wanted to force a bit more variety in the game. You can either have prebuilt formations, which will be expensive, or you can design your own from a hodgepoge of forces, which will be weaker.

    The formation units can only be carried in the troop transport ship type (havent made a ship list yet, but I will have one soon) which will be very slow. That way you will have to have them to fight in Europe (or wherever your home territory is), but transporting them to other parts of the world will be a major PITA!

    Single unit forces, like the muskets, will be able to travel on faster ships, getting places and doing things. They are complements to a strong naval power, but somewhat useless for those powers unlikely to use ships or see much naval combat.

    I still need one more good generic word for infantry... but I will probably end up just using 'soldier'.

    What do you guys think?

    Again, UUs and Flavors are not included. So, for instance, the Russian flavor will be cheaper and weaker, while the HRE flavor will be stronger and more expensive. These are median values, and include the base idea for all the ground units to be included.

    Thanks!

    EDIT: The sets refer to the position on the tech tree. SO:

    4 Part Tree:
    Part1: American Civs, Vija, Atu
    Part2: Eastern Civs (excluding above)
    Part3: MidEast and Euro
    Part4: MidEast and Euro

    So set1 = part3 and set2 = part 4

    These divisions are my way of splitting up simultaneous events between various civs. It is not my way of saying that Eastern Civs < Euros or something. I would prefer to have a massive one block tree so that I wouldnt have to bugger about with making generic roots. But, because of the difficulties of doing that visually... voila!

    ...although... if I were to make all the techs invisible except to the civ allowed to research them... and cut out the generic parts, eliminating tech trades... I will have to check that all out, but I think I can greatly smooth down the tech tree to just one block!
    Hope that wasnt too confusing ;p
     
  15. ThomAnder

    ThomAnder Chieftain

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    Some points about the units-

    -The cavalry isn't much stronger than the knight, not sure if u meant it this way though.
    -The castle's defense is very very high relative to the other units, i thought that the emergence of cannons and guns made castles less powerful...
    -Is the castle restricted to european group only? other civs had castles too, though they may not look the same. Eg. Japan has lots of them during the sengoku period.
    -Aren't the units for China, Vijayanagara, Ayutthaya, Golden Horde and Japan a little too weak? They're not much better than the tribes at this point. The units are also a bit... backward. Horseman and Catapults in the 1600 doesn't sound quite rite. Especially when Asia had access to gunpowder before the europeans too...
    -Noticed that the responsibilities of each group is different than those in rhye's mod. Just wondering why. (Archers- Offense, Pike - Defense).
     
  16. Gunner

    Gunner Chieftain

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    I really like the way you have divided up the units with combining munit. Will add a unique element to this scenario.
    My main concern with the values would be that the attack numbers aren't high enough, it looks like a pike and musket munit would be invincible. (I do realize that you can bombard, but the cannon only bombards with 14 which will make it very difficult.)
     
  17. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    Yes, it is true that they will be very strong, and yes, cavalry in general (and in specific) is intentionally sucky. Look back at enough military history and its pretty clear that they are only good for scouting and finishing off already smashed formations.

    As to the ADM values, I am not sure how they will play out either. I wanted the defense to have a clear advantage so as to prevent much European warfare, but I am worried myself that I set them too strong.

    As to the Euro units being too strong for non-Euro civs, dont worry. The MUnits are virtually impossible to transit to Asia. The only ship that can carry them is wheeled (cannot enter sea and ocean), AND can only move five squares in coast.

    As to the changes in unit roles, a friend of mine brought up a really good point. Archers etc cannot protect themselves on the defense without a spearwall or a realwall. Making them defenders is illogical. It IS better to represent them as attackers (offensive bombardment) and give them a defensive bombardment instead.

    As to late era catapults... I couldnt find any information on Asian siege equipment for the era. HOWEVER, I was/am certain that the Ming refused to adopt gunpowder equipment (beyond the firelancers, which had a negligible effect on combat, despite what you might think from what you see in games and Mulan). If someone can get me some data, I will be more than pleased to make a change in what I call it/what graphics I get it because, frankly, I agree with you that catapults seem kinda weird considering! ;p

    I promise to post what I decided on for ships sometime soon, but I just got home and I want to play with Poser5 for a bit haha.
     
  18. ThomAnder

    ThomAnder Chieftain

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  19. Aeon221

    Aeon221 Lord of the Cheese Helmet

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    This is VERY COOL! Not sure how useful it will be (v-a-v graphics) but VERY interesting! I will restate units for China based on this information!
     
  20. ThomAnder

    ThomAnder Chieftain

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    i noe... i never imagined it before. Gunmen + Chariots. What a combo :D
     

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