[Vote] (2-05) Reveal Iron Earlier At Mining Instead Of Bronze Working

[Legen]

Well maybe we will start talking about the UA's faith part. You openly admit that you might be creating a problem.

It won't. It mainly affects the civs that tend to be at the bottom of the AI performance tests than Ethiopia. The earlier Iron reveal is bound to improve balance and contribute towards fixing the difficulty of Domination victories, as well of many players reporting that Authority AIs tend to perform worse.

So your argument is that this is already janky, and you're merely making it worse.

The argument is that it doesn't change anything, neither for better or for worse. Your complaint is addressed by AI adjustments to not buy what they can't use, not by delaying Iron reveal.

Also, remember that the AI gets a lot of science in the early eras based on difficulty; some of the reports of the AI buying Iron before they can use it may be neglecting that the AI has the science output to use it much earlier than the player can, or that the AI might already have Iron Working in the first place.

Another point, the AI's trade deals with the player is often tweaked, and we had cases where players commented that the AI just wasn't willing to pay anything worthwhile for Iron or Horses.

 

[pineappledan]

This is not meaningfully going to contribute to solving the AI's domination victory woes. Those are AI problems.

The tactical AI doesn't grasp the idea of capital-sniping as a victory path; their inability to win domination victories has nothing to do with them not getting iron fast enough, especially when they can't even use it.

 

[Legen]

This is already a bad idea, and what I'm demonstrating is that it spins out into a kaleidoscope of other, smaller, bad ideas.

The bad idea is to keep the Iron reveal in Bronze Working. You're complaining that Bronze Working already doesn't fit your builds, clearly Iron reveal there isn't the right answer for making it a better tech for you. With much better options to improve Bronze Working's usefulness, why tie Iron reveal to it if it isn't working?

Iron reveal on Mining makes a lot more sense and addresses issues in Ancient Era tech design, civ balance and how enjoyable it is to play the bottom part of the tech tree.

If you are professing that you will have meaningfully contributed to solving the AI's domination victory woes, then I can't help but laugh.

The tactical AI doesn't grasp the idea of capital-sniping as a victory path; their inability to win domination victories has nothing to do with them not getting iron fast enough, especially when they can't even use it.

Remember the common complaint about Authority, that it tends to fall behind in science even compared to Tradition. An earlier Iron reveal helps addressing it, since Authority is bound to focus the bottom part of the tech tree more than its counterparts.

The AI may not understand human tactics enough for a DomV, but it understands enough that the bottom techs have a higher militaristic flavor and that Iron mines gives science. Having that early science helps with their consistency when aiming for militarism.

 

[Rekk]

Also, remember that the AI gets a lot of science in the early eras based on difficulty;

Having that early science helps with their consistency when aiming for militarism.

 

[pineappledan]

*cracks knuckles* alright, so let's actually try to solve this in a manner that doesn't just add more jank. I will be incorporating @azum4roll's lumber mill/logging camp changes and @ma_kuh's Mine Yield Reduction proposals here, because those look like they are favoured to pass:

Spoiler comprehensive fix that solves problems :

1. New Bonus Resource: Teak
Revealed at Mining
Spawns in Jungle (at the cost of some banana placements)
1 base
+1 when improved by Lumber Mill (contributes to 2 adjacency)

2. Iron is made more common on the map. 6-Quantity deposits are removed from game

3. Iron moves back to Iron Working

4. Forge/Siege Foundry moves from Iron working to Bronze Working
Cost reduced from 150 to 110 (consistent with T2 ancient buildings)
+1
+1 to mines. +2 to Mines on Resources
+1 to nearby Iron; +2 to nearby Copper
1 Engineer Slot
(+2 to engineers removed, in accordance with the Ratification vote)

5. Earth Mother Changed to God of Fire
+1 to Mines on Resources
+2 to Forges

5. Colossus moves from Metal Casting to Iron Working
Cost reduced from 250 to 200 (consistent with T1 classical)
Number of Policies Required lowered from 5 to 4 (consistent with T1 classical)

6. Metal Casting is functionally getting Jungle Logging Camp consolidated into Lumber Mill. No other change.

Spoiler Reasoning :

• Mining gets a new bonus resource reveal that is thematically tied to the bottom of the tree (same tech as chop unlock), but isn't improvable until a later bottom tree tech
• Adds a bit of early to bottom tree rushers without adding too much, because the improvement is delayed
• This also slightly weakens top tree players, because a new jungle resource will mean fewer Bananas for a Calendar/Plantation player. Also slightly reduces the overall ubiquity of plantation resources, which I consider a plus.
• This frees Iron up to be moved out of Ancient entirely, onto the tech that also unlocks a use for it and is more thematically consistent.
• This removes the problem of an SR being revealed too early to do anything with it other than trade it.
• A change to Iron placement, making them more numerous, will strengthen bottom of the tree slightly by making it more consistent and improve early tile yields.
• More common iron on the map in smaller quantities lowers the risk that a civ dependent on sword rushes rolls a start with no iron.
• Forge moves forward to give that extra for bottom-rushers
• Moves the 1st Engineer slot contemporary with the 1st Merchant slot, which is consistent because these 2 are the, "common" yield specialists
• Forging is thematically strong on Bronze Working, since bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, and therefore requires basic knowledge of metallurgy
• 1 more ancient-era building means 1 more possible building for a Pantheon. Forge moving to Ancient era opens up design space to improve an existing pantheon (eg. Earth Mother)
• Earth Mother/GoFire needs a bit more oomph, so this increases the power of the building bonus, but puts it later on Forges
• Unstacks Earth Mother and God of All Creation, which currently both boost monuments.
• The Colossus was built in 280 BC, which fits an early classical placement better.
• Legend holds the Colossus was built from the melted down weapons of an invading army, so it thematically stronger if tied to the tech with a unit that requires iron.
• Moving Colossus earlier fills a hole left in Iron Working by moving the Forge

I'm sure that addresses everyone's issues satisfactorily and there will be no disagreement whatsoever

 

[Legen]

1. New Bonus Resource: Teak
Revealed at Mining
Spawns in Jungle (at the cost of some banana placements)
1 base
+1 when improved by Lumber Mill (contributes to 2 adjacency)

What does it have to do with Mining in the first place? And how is it having an improvement at Metal Casting consistent with your idea of jank? You were complaining about Iron having a two-tech gap, despite its historicity, and now wants to add a three-tech gap resource and improvement.

2. Iron is made more common on the map. 6-Quantity deposits are removed from game

I'm neither for or against it, Iron abundance just isn't the point of the proposal.

3. Iron moves back to Iron Working

I've already mentioned often, the issue of the current Iron reveal is that it comes much later than other resources, but is something that many civs are very reliant on for their settling decisions. Often more than the rest of the resources. It has to be moved to an earlier tech, not to a later one.

4. Forge/Siege Foundry moves from Iron working to Bronze Working

I've considered this one, and I'm not against it for Bronze Working. And there isn't a reason why it can go hand in hand with an earlier Iron reveal.

5. Colossus moves from Metal Casting to Iron Working

Nice suggestion.

 

[pineappledan]

I'm neither for or against it, Iron abundance just isn't the point of the proposal.

Changing iron abundance/placement more effectively solves the problem you claim to be aiming at.

What does it have to do with Mining in the first place? And how is it having an improvement at Metal Casting consistent with your idea of jank? You were complaining about Iron having a two-tech gap, despite its historicity, and now wants to add a three-tech gap resource and improvement.

Mining is the T1 tech in a straight line to metal casting, which contains the lumber mill improvement. It also has the unlock for tree chop.

I never complained about Iron having a 2 tech gap from Mines; I complained about Iron having a 2 tech gap from Swords. If I did, how could I possibly condone moving it further back? Do you hear me complaining about the 8 tech gap between mines and coal?
Bananas are revealed 2 tech tiers before their improvement (Agriculture & Calendar). The gap between Teak and lumber mill lets the bonus resource exist on its own without inflating the number of improvable resource tiles. A mineable resource could be added instead, like lead, but adding a lumber improvement is the more conservative change for early game.

I've already mentioned often, the issue of the current Iron reveal is that it comes much later than other resources, but is something that many civs are very reliant on for their settling decisions. Often more than the rest of the resources. It has to be moved to an earlier tech, not to a later one.

And I have repeatedly told you that your perspective assumes a bad premise, that you're trying to solve a settling problem that doesn't really exist, and that your supposed fix has more drawbacks than it has perks.

You keep saying that iron NEEEDS to be visible at T1 ancient, because something something settling, and that's as true for iron as it is for any other strategic resource, which is to say it's not true at all.
Using your Exact. Same. Talking points, I could argue an infrastructure-focused civ needs Coal revealed at T1, because they need to plan their factories.
If you think that is a weak argument, that is because it is, and it is identical to the one you are making for Iron.

 

[usadefcon1]

If this doesn't pass and anyone wants Iron on Mining the sql code is pretty straight forward:

    UPDATE Resources
    SET TechReveal = 'TECH_MINING'
    WHERE Type = 'RESOURCE_IRON';

    UPDATE Resources
    SET TechCityTrade = 'TECH_MINING'
    WHERE Type = 'RESOURCE_IRON';

 

[Legen]

So, another potential idea for how to address the concerns for Bronze Working, and the Iron gap between Mining and Iron Working:

• Catapult moved to Bronze Working, and it requires Iron.
  • Addresses the complaint that Iron sits an entire era without use, and even gives Iron a big Ancient Era role for a militaristic civ.
  • The Catapult originally had an Iron requirement and can act as a decent complement to a Spearman-heavy army composition.
  • Gives militaristic players, or anyone focusing the bottom techs, an alternative to Archers for ranged combat.
  • Its upgrade unit, the Trebuchet, remains not requiring Iron; upgrading a Catapult to a Trebuchet can free Iron for the Longswordman. This may be followed by a proposal to move the Trebuchet to Steel and move something else (e.g. Workshop, originally a Metal Casting building) to Physics as a replacement.
  • Catapult at Bronze Working has a similar placement to Artillery at Ballistics, so it's not incongruent with how siege units are placed in the tree.

 

[rkkn]

*cracks knuckles* [...] no disagreement whatsoever

looks good to me. though no other changes to colossus? cheaper but same value?

 

[pineappledan]

looks good to me. though no other changes to colossus? cheaper but same value?

You could reduce the base yields from 5 1 , but I don’t think it’s necessary.In comparison to Petra or Great Lighthouse, Colossus’ strength is already comparable.You might even argue it was a bit weak for a late classical wonder, another reason to support moving it earlier.

 

[Legen]

Changing iron abundance/placement more effectively solves the problem you claim to be aiming at.

Can a more abundant Iron placement alleviate it? Yes. Do you want to rely on RNG for when you settle under any of the above situations? No. And if you're not taking chances, do you want the delay on Iron specifically, when no other resource has it? Also no.

The proposal isn't aimed only for Iron-based civs, but try to play a civ that is indeed Iron reliant and compare to how it is when you have a variety of the situations below:

• The luxuries around you require Fishing or Calendar, and your most promising pantheon choices are related to them. You have a tighter tradeoff between securing your key resource or a religion, than a civ reliant on Horses, or neither, due to the science cost difference.
• One or multiple of your neighbors are known reckless expansionists and bound to forward settle you. The time it takes for you to counter settle and secure Iron is noticeably larger than to secure Horses, and you'll have less yields to pull that due to the lower number of resource reveals.
• Washington is your neighbor, and you can count on him "purchasing" your valuable tiles. You don't want to settle in a way to have Iron at the 2nd or 3rd ring of your city vs him, and you don't want to risk your Iron to be revealed at the outer parts of your satellite city. A civ reliant on Horses, or neither, doesn't have to worry about a key resource being revealed like that, they get full knowledge of their resources much faster than an Iron reliant civ.
• You have a Tall build for your civ. The need to keep your core city count lower makes it extra important to have Iron revealed earlier, it is not something you want to leave to luck. Such builds are bound to either struggle more in the opening turns from having to delay the other resource reveal techs and their extra yields, or to delay settling longer than usual to not sacrifice their economic engine. A civ reliant on Horses or neither doesn't have this issue.

You keep saying that iron NEEEDS to be visible at T1 ancient, because something something settling, and that's as true for iron as it is for any other strategic resource, which is to say it's not true at all.
Using your Exact. Same. Talking points, I could argue an infrastructure-focused civ needs Coal revealed at T1, because they need to plan their factories. But that's not an argument anyone would take seriously, so why do you think that argument made about iron has any merit?

Coal, or any later resource, simply has no place in a discussion about a topic that involves the Ancient Era and how it plays. The environment, options and priorities of Industrial and later differ drastically from Ancient Era. The only other strategic resource worth mentioning here is Horse, and the comparisons to its reveal placement make a good example for why Iron reveal should be available earlier.

 

[CppMaster]

"Don't worry about it", what kind of defense is that?

Hold your horses and cool your head or I'll call Recursive to calm you down.

It's not a defense, because I'm not defending it. I'm just saying that general balance should be regardless of the about 5% civs. Those can be tweaked later and it'd be much easier to do.

 

[pineappledan]

We keep mentioning Rome. It’s incumbent on me to remind people that the proposed changes to Rome in this Congress include a low-cost way of getting iron by force-annexing city-states.

As for the rest of your scenarios, some starts are harder than others. Sometimes that’s because you have bad neighbours and sometimes you are cross-pressured to tech both the bottom and top of the tree. This isn’t new.

Coal, or any later resource, simply has no place in a discussion about a topic that involves the Ancient Era and how it plays. The environment, options and priorities of Industrial and later differ drastically from Ancient Era. The only other strategic resource worth mentioning here is Horse, and the comparisons to its reveal placement make a good example for why Iron reveal should be available earlier.

Okay, for the people in the back:

Everything that uses Iron is Classical or later.

If you move iron back to Iron Working, it is no longer an ancient era resource.

 

[rkkn]

You keep saying that iron NEEEDS to be visible at T1 ancient, because something something settling, and that's as true for iron as it is for any other strategic resource, which is to say it's not true at all.

mm not exactly. The difference here is that there are no UUs or UBs or whatever that require a later era strategic.

If someone did have a UU or UB that required coal then you would absolutely want to give the civ something that gives them easier access to coal. Or, indeed, even let them see coal much much earlier so that they could secure it before it's too late and all land is mostly settled.


Anyway, I agree that if iron is pushed to classical and a different resource is added to mining, then the tech trees are plenty consistent and balanced. Issue with iron UU civs still stands, but is imo something that can be solved separately. Moving iron to a tier 1 tech is the easiest way to solve it, but perhaps there are other ways?

 

[Legen]

As for the rest of your scenarios, some starts are harder than others, and sometimes you are cross-pressured to tech both the bottom and top of the tree. This isn’t new.

Except that civs not reliant on Iron aren't cross-pressured to both top and bottom techs due to their starts like Iron reliant civs are. And the reason why is because no other Ancient Era resource reveal is in the first column of the tech tree. That's the point you're missing.

If you move iron back to Iron Working, it is no longer an ancient era resource.

And it introduces a whole lot other issues along the way, while fixing none of the original issues. By itself, it doesn't address the concerns of Bronze Working being weak at the moment either.

 

[Legen]

mm not exactly. The difference here is that there are no UUs or UBs or whatever that require a later era strategic.

If someone did have a UU or UB that required coal then you would absolutely want to give the civ something that gives them easier access to coal. Or, indeed, even let them see coal much much earlier so that they could secure it before it's too late and all land is mostly settled.


Anyway, I agree that if iron is pushed to classical and a different resource is added to mining, then the tech trees are plenty consistent and balanced. Issue with iron UU civs still stands, but is imo something that can be solved separately. Moving iron to a tier 1 tech is the easiest way to solve it, but perhaps there are other ways?

The cases in which there is a use of an Industrial Era or later strategic resource often came with the unique not requiring that resource. England's Steam Mill not requiring coal, BWN Japan's Zero not requiring oil (with VP's Zero retaining this characteristic). If we decide to move Iron reveal to Classical Era, then expect a lot of requests for "doesn't require Iron" to related UUs for balance sake, as being unable to effectively secure Iron when settling adds a considerable amount of RNG that is out of the control of their civs.

 

[Rekk]

I'm just saying that general balance should be regardless of the about 5% civs. Those can be tweaked later and it'd be much easier to do.

This proposal is asking to please consider the plight of the few civilizations whose UUs rely on Iron.

 

[pineappledan]

And it introduces a whole lot other issues along the way, while fixing none of the original issues. By itself, it doesn't address the concerns of Bronze Working being weak at the moment either.

… yeah that’s what moving forge earlier does. Thanks for reading peoples’ posts.

 

[Legen]

… yeah that’s what moving forge earlier does. Thanks for reading peoples’ posts.

I said "by itself". The earlier forge doesn't actually need to be tied to iron being moved to Iron Working, it can exist separately to that.