(2-VT) Improve Logging Camps

[phantomaxl1207]

Proposal: Move Logging Camps to Metal Casting (from Machinery) and increase their base Yield to +2 Gold (from +1) (the +1 Gold from triangle adjacency is unchanged).

I'm not a fan of how late Logging Camps unlock. Jungles are on the shorter end of the stick compared to Forest Tiles. The +1 Science from Universities does not make up the difference, and Scientific Revolution (Rationalism) is somewhat late. Gold is also a bit weaker for a City vs Production. Workshops do a good job of making Forests competitive with Mines.

Grass Jungles are a 3, 2 , 1 with 1 Triangle Adjacency; Grass Forests are a 2 , 4 , 1 with 1 Triangle Adjacency; Mines are a 6 .



Edit: Proposal 2: Move Logging Camps to Metal Casting (from Machinery) and increase their base Yield to +2 Gold, +1 Science (from +1 Gold) and the Gold from triangle adjacency is increased to +2 (from +1).

Edit: Proposal3: Move Logging Camps to Metal Casting (from Machinery) and change their base Yield to +1 Production (from +1 Gold) (the +1 Gold from triangle adjacency is unchanged).
Grass Jungle will be 3 Food, 1 Production, 1 Gold, 1 Science and Plains Jungle will be 2 Food, 2 Production,1 Gold, 1 Science

 

[AndreyK]

May be better to add 1 prod to jungles

 

[nekokon]

Honestly with how strong mine is with all the upgrades and how it's unlocked a lot earlier, I almost never use logging camp or lumbermill unless playing as jungle centric civ or I have nothing good else to improve there.
Would need more than +1g for me to worth considering at all.

 

[Rekk]

I think that map scripts that place jungle on top of grassland are wrong.

 

[azum4roll]

I think that map scripts that place jungle on top of grassland are wrong.

Don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Actually, Jungle will almost always be found on Plains w/o VP, as Grass Jungle has a 1 Food advantage over Plains Jungle. So, unmodded mapscripts having Grass Jungles won't be a common occurance.
Plains Jungle in VP will have 2 Food, 1 Production.

Proposal 2: Move Logging Camps to Metal Casting (from Machinery) and increase their base Yield to +2 Gold, +1 Science (from +1 Gold) and the Gold from triangle adjacency is increased to +2 (from +1).

Grass Jungle will be 3 Food, 4 Gold, 2 Science; Plains Jungle will be 2 Food, 1 Production, 4 Gold, 2 Science (these are with 1 Triangle adjacency bonus)

This should make them more competitive with Mines, surely.

 

[AndreyK]

Actually, Jungle will almost always be found on Plains w/o VP, as Grass Jungle has a 1 Food advantage over Plains Jungle. So, unmodded mapscripts having Grass Jungles won't be a common occurance.
Plains Jungle in VP will have 2 Food, 1 Production.

Proposal 2: Move Logging Camps to Metal Casting (from Machinery) and increase their base Yield to +2 Gold, +1 Science (from +1 Gold) and the Gold from triangle adjacency is increased to +2 (from +1).

Grass Jungle will be 3 Food, 4 Gold, 2 Science; Plains Jungle will be 2 Food, 1 Production, 4 Gold, 2 Science (these are with 1 Triangle adjacency bonus)

This should make them more competitive with Mines, surely.

Don't agree with that - too much science without any effort, and we already have enough gold from logging camps. I thing much better to add +1 production.

 

[CrazyG]

It seems to me that a lot of balance proposals are because of how strong mines are. Perhaps the forge should only give 1 hammer to mines, otherwise we'll have a big wave of yield inflation.

 

[pineappledan]

I agree with moving forward to metal casting but I don’t want the yields increased.

 

[beginner_]

I agree with moving forward to metal casting but I don’t want the yields increased.

Agree. The biggest issue is hwo long jungle remains useless. Even with forest it it annoying especially since late game forest can be extremely OP

 

[ma_kuh]

Herbalist already boosts jungle, maybe we should split the +1 for 2 forest/jungle into +1 for 2 forest, +1 for 2 jungle. The breakpoints would be a little worse (since they don't count jungle+forest), but it does help normalize the forest/jungle yields balance.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Proposal3: Move Logging Camps to Metal Casting (from Machinery) and change their base Yield to +1 Production (from +1 Gold) (the +1 Gold from triangle adjacency is unchanged).
Grass Jungle will be 3 Food, 1 Production, 1 Gold, 1 Science and Plains Jungle will be 2 Food, 2 Production,1 Gold, 1 Science

Well, if Mines are getting talks about a slight nerf, Lumbermills and Logging Camps should be more viable w/o big changes needed. I did get valuable feedback by overshooting the buff suggestion though.

 

[Stalker0]

Why do we need a different camp with different yields? I've never understood why jungles can't just get lumber mills like a forest....same yields, and go. they practically share all of the other same bonuses, why does jungle always need to be the red-headed step child, they are very very hard to work early on, and their later science bonus from universities really does not make up for it.

I say just give them the full forest treatment, enjoy some real yields to compensate for how crappy its been having jungles this entire time.

 

[nekokon]

I'm against giving jungle the same yield/bonuses as forest. Simplify gameplay solely to make it easier to balance goes against my preferred design (better gameplay > better balance)
It's not hard to give jungle a specific niche. I don't know why gold was picked in the first place, but we can change it to maximize science/culture instead (by changing logging camp into something like natural preservation site)

 

[pineappledan]

Why do we need a different camp with different yields? I've never understood why jungles can't just get lumber mills like a forest....same yields, and go. they practically share all of the other same bonuses, why does jungle always need to be the red-headed step child, they are very very hard to work early on, and their later science bonus from universities really does not make up for it.

I say just give them the full forest treatment, enjoy some real yields to compensate for how crappy its been having jungles this entire time.

The graphics won’t work for the forest lumber mill as applied to logging camp. That’s why they have to be separate.

If someone ever figures out how to make 2 adjacent improvements boost another improvement we can merge the two, and make the distinction between the two a coder secret

 

[Stalker0]

The graphics won’t work for the forest lumber mill as applied to logging camp. That’s why they have to be separate.

If someone ever figures out how to make 2 adjacent improvements boost another improvement we can merge the two, and make the distinction between the two a coder secret

Fair enough, but we can merge them in all but name. Just give them the same bonuses and triggers.

 

[balparmak]

The graphics won’t work for the forest lumber mill as applied to logging camp. That’s why they have to be separate.

If someone ever figures out how to make 2 adjacent improvements boost another improvement we can merge the two, and make the distinction between the two a coder secret

That's not right, graphics work, they use the same model&artdefs anyway. I can't be sure but the reason they were separated could have something to do with techs or adjacency bonuses. So we can have lumbermills on jungles and they would count for adjacency with forest mills. The two could even have different base/starting yields, but their adjacency&tech bonuses would be the same.

I'd prefer phantomax' latest (#3) proposal though, logging camp becomes a lumber mill with a different adjacency bonus, makes them useful while keeping some flavor. I sponsor this.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd prefer phantomax' latest (#3) proposal though, logging camp becomes a lumber mill with a different adjacency bonus, makes them useful while keeping some flavor.

What "flavor"? I don't see how the different (and weaker) bonus is in anyway interesting, nor is it thematic in any way. Its just being different "just because".

 

[balparmak]

Fair point I'll sponsor if you want to do a "lumbermills on jungles" proposal

 

[KlHannibal2]

I like the fact the forest and jungle give different yields and have different improvements. Without that, why even keep jungles in the game?

I support the earlier unlock of the logging camp and a light yield increase (from 1 gold to 2 gold). Keep the rest (science from universities and rationalism, adjacency bonuses) the same.

What I like about this setup: you have more meaningful decisions when to cut down a jungle or to keep it.