3.13 BtS patch feature/fix discussion

If I was Firaxis I would have just stolen it and worked off of that :). I mean, I woulda paid Solver of course, but thats just me.

Solver worked on the original BTS. I seem to recall him posting somewhere that his events and the issues he had fixed had been incorporated in the new patch. However the actual fixes might have been resolved in a different way e.g. corporation costs.
 
Given the new cap for Colony maintenance, will the AI be making use Versailles and the Forbidden Palace for over seas territory? It would appear that I'm not alone in thinking of saving one or both (if possible) to allow for a huge sprawling multi-continental empire
 
Thanks for opening this up again. The patch looks very good, but the one thing I'd like to see would be a more balanced Airships. There has been quite a bit of discussion related to how early Airships can unbalance the game, I'm surprised there's not even a small adjustment to them in the patch.
 
I wonder if adding new units is something they would do. There have been a small handful of new units proposed that fix some gaping holes, mainly a late game "special forces" with paradrop, commando, and increased str that both marines and paratroopers upgrade to, and also an early gunpowder siege. These are simple and sensible ideas. Of course, we wouldn't want to go unit crazy in patches, but these seem to address real deficiencies.
 
Well one change that would be Totaly unrelated to balance but would help gameplay is
1. some display of how much of a stationary bonus spies have
and/or
2. a 'Infiltrate' function for spies, like the 'Heal' ability for units... basically the spy skips turns until it has reached maximum stationary bonus.
 
The trouble with adding units is that you have to teach the AI to deal with them. Adding a unit is fairly trivial, just a few lines of XML code. But getting the AI to know when to build them and how to use them effectively is much more work. It's not just writing the code, it's testing it out and seeing if it works, and them tweaking it to make it work better, and then having a beta tester find a way to exploit the new behavior so you have to start over with a new strategy/tactic for the AI to use, and so on ad nauseum.

Zienth
 
The trouble with adding units is that you have to teach the AI to deal with them. Adding a unit is fairly trivial, just a few lines of XML code. But getting the AI to know when to build them and how to use them effectively is much more work. It's not just writing the code, it's testing it out and seeing if it works, and them tweaking it to make it work better, and then having a beta tester find a way to exploit the new behavior so you have to start over with a new strategy/tactic for the AI to use, and so on ad nauseum.
Zienth

What you say makes sense if its a brand new category with new abilities. But in this case it's just a beefed up version of same-old stuff to stay competive. For example, the AI could just pretend that the gunpowder bombard was the same as a trebuchet, except with better combat odds. Likewise the special forces unit could reuse the same AI from marines/paratroopers.

edit: if you look at the XML files you see there's only a handful of algorithms anyway, with names like CITY_ATTACK_AI, or PARATROOPER_AI depending on how the AI intends to use the unit. These algorithms are shared over many units.
 
Krikkitone - try an espionage mission you can see what the stationary bonus is, and just cancel if you don't want to do the mission yet.
I wonder how many turns until you reach maximum and what the formula is. Does it differ from mission to mission?
 
I doubt State Property would have zero colonial maintenance. That would be pretty damned OP. It'll probably have the same, flat-rate as before, regardless of anything, it is merely capped at 2x the amount of what the unmodified distance cost would be. At least, that's what makes sense to me. Anything else seems to be sabotaging what they designed colonial maintenance to do: encourage you to form colonies to cut costs...
I agree - colony maintenance is a separate concept from regular city maintenance. If it wasn't, they could easily have just added an overseas multiplier to regular city maintenance and have been done with it.

Venger
 
OK

The changelog mentions that Colony maintenance will get capped at 2* distance maintenance

This probably means Versailles and Forbidden Palace become useful on another continent to cut down on colony maintenance costs

I believe it also means that State Property will have no colony maintenance (since it has no distance maintenance)

Now while this sounds like a massive buff to State Property, apparently corporations will be a lot better in the patch thereby nerfing State Property

any other opinions.

I started a thread in the bug report forum about colonial expenses a month ago and it seems that they looked into the issues with this game element. I'm happy that they decided to change it so that distance is taken into account (I argued for that). We had some good discussion about how to change this game element there.

Now that they seem to implement distance into the cost formula, I wonder how it will work when combined with state property and the forbidden palace and Versailles. I personally hope that State Property won't effect colonial expenses and the Forbidden Palace and Versailles will.

State Property is already (one of) the best civic(s) to use when you weren't able to found your own corporations. I would dislike the situation where you were able to found very profitable corporations but the way colonial expenses work would result in a situation where State Property is the best civic to use. If that would be the result of game mechanics, then the civics were named incorrectly. A civic named free market should be the best civic when you own large international corporations. A civic named state property should be better when you don't have such corporations. There is no element in real world state property which would result in more efficient colonies (AFAIK).

I would like it when the Forbidden Palace and Versailles would influence colonial expenses because it would add some strategic choices and a well organised empire where these centres of government are placed in a smart way would benefit significantly from this. It seems logical that a large multi-continental empire would benefit from well-placed centres of government.
 
I agree - colony maintenance is a separate concept from regular city maintenance. If it wasn't, they could easily have just added an overseas multiplier to regular city maintenance and have been done with it.

Venger

But that is what they are doing, capping Colony maintenance at 2* Distance Maintenance

the question is whether that is the Distance maintenance Before or After State Property's zeroing effect takes place.

Now if Corporations are being buffed by reduced maintenance, so that someone would even want Foreign corporations, then State Property got nerfed

So I think that this would be a good way to improve it (State Property)
After all 2* Distance Maintenance is all you would be saving, since colony maintenance will go down for everyone, it isn't as big a buff as it sounds.
 
State Property is already (one of) the best civic(s) to use when you weren't able to found your own corporations. I would dislike the situation where you were able to found very profitable corporations but the way colonial expenses work would result in a situation where State Property is the best civic to use. If that would be the result of game mechanics, then the civics were named incorrectly. A civic named free market should be the best civic when you own large international corporations. A civic named state property should be better when you don't have such corporations. There is no element in real world state property which would result in more efficient colonies (AFAIK).

Well there isn't much of a real world reduction in distance maintenance from state property either.

And I think they may be giving you your wish
Corporations are(should be post-patch) something you WANT in your cities, (almost all of the time if they are foreign and always if they are domestic)

Free Market is best with lots of corporations, you get the gold from your domestic ones, and the benefits from foreign ones. (and your domestic ones give you gold when they are placed in your colonies)

State Property corps could get Gold from overseas Colonies, but the State Property government would be better off just keeping it under direct control. They will get no gold from corps in overseas cities, but they won't pay maintenance either.

This goes long with the idea of
SP=low cost+low income
FM=high cost+high income (income even higher now with trade route bonuses)

I think it would be balanced
 
As far as I am concerned, the 3.13 patch includes just about everything important from my unofficial patch, and more of course. Some of the fixes are handled slightly differently, but the problems addresses are the same anyway. I can only think of one real improvement that didn't make it into the patch, and that's a small AI tweak and basically no loss.

The new events are, in essence, just my event mod turned into an appropriate form for the patch.
 
Well there isn't much of a real world reduction in distance maintenance from state property either.

Maybe not. I personally always looked at that as representing the huge Sovjet Empire which was functioning under a State Property like civic. This empire was a single continent empire.

Not a strong argument, I know, but the large differences between the various civics that you can use to govern your empire are just there to make it an interesting choice. So small real life perceived differences are blown up to huge proportions and they try to do this in a way that retains game balance.

And I think they may be giving you your wish
Corporations are(should be post-patch) something you WANT in your cities, (almost all of the time if they are foreign and always if they are domestic)

That was another discussion and also an interesting one. I just argued that inflation shouldn't influence the upkeep of corporations because it would mess with the balance between the benefits of the corporation (hammers, gold, science, culture) versus the maintenance cost of the corporation. (see this thread) It would be impossible to properly balance that when inflation would also be used to influence the balance.

Personally, I would like it if corporations are (really) good in your own cities if you found the headquarters. There is a race to found the corporations and it is expensive to get one first. You must direct your research in the right way and if you are in a competitive game it is important to have the great person available once the corporation becomes available. So some reward is reasonable. Furthermore, there is a serious cost to spreading the corporation over all of your cities. It costs 100 hammers per city and 50 gold per city, nothing to be laughed about.
Under the 3.13 rules for corporations, it is probably also mildly interesting to get a foreign corporation in a well developed city when you have enough resources to seriously benefit from the corporation. However, a foreign founded mining inc (my favourite corporation nonetheless) in a city without a courthouse and without production bonuses while you don't own many resources to boost this corporation (a corporation with very few usable resources still has a considerable cost), is probably not such a great idea. It might be a better idea to get the benefits of the state property civic than to run an inefficient corporation in your cities. The efficiency of a foreign corporation in your cities depends on the state of your empire (resources to help the corporation) and the state of the city (how developed is it to make use of the benefits of this corporation).
Also realise that the foreign civilisation which owns the headquarters is benefiting from the expansion of this corporation in your city. That could also be seen as an additional negative effect of this foreign corporation in your cities.

Free Market is best with lots of corporations, you get the gold from your domestic ones, and the benefits from foreign ones. (and your domestic ones give you gold when they are placed in your colonies)

State Property corps could get Gold from overseas Colonies, but the State Property government would be better off just keeping it under direct control. They will get no gold from corps in overseas cities, but they won't pay maintenance either.

This goes long with the idea of
SP=low cost+low income
FM=high cost+high income (income even higher now with trade route bonuses)

I think it would be balanced

In my vision, state property is the civic to use when you were too late to found a corporation. It gives some serious cost reductions in city upkeep and it gives a serious production boost because workshops and watermills are far more efficient tile improvements. And the 10% production bonus is also nice in starting cities without high production bonuses. It works like having a mining inc. without having to spread it around all of your cities and without having to direct your research and use a great person. Of course, a mining inc. of a huge empire with a huge amount of resources would do better than the state property boost. But in that case, you're talking about a game which is already won.

I don't know if the 3.13 balance (from what the changelog shows) is perfect. It's a bit too early for me to judge that. But it isn't horribly broken as far as I can tell. I would consider the situation before the changes (where inflation influenced the corporation cost) broken.

Maybe some fine tuning is needed to balance the various labor civics.
 
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