3rd Cumulative WW2 History Quiz

[Hornblower]

From memory the weather was intermittenly hazy or foggy. From personal experience trying to spot a Submarine in clear sunny Australian and Hawaiian waters is very difficult let alone grey hazy artic waters.
Only once have my lookouts spotted a sub that was creeping past trying see and not to be seen. It was shallow and clear and she was doing 20knots at periscope depth leaving a nice wake so it made it easier for us.

Ok... this ship was notoriously successful during her time in WW2. What is the ship and what is she most famous for?

 

[Adler17]

Well I do think it is possible that K 21 was there, but I personally doubt he fired torpedoes as the 9 escort vessels, 7 destroyer and 2 torpedo boats, did not detect any torpedo, and to my knowledge the torpedo is noisy and so relative easy to spot. However I admit that can´t be sure and it is indeed possible but unlikely that Lunin, commander of K 21, fire the shots shortly before the German task force went home.
BTW I think I know the ship and will PM Hornblower as I am excluded this time for the quiz.

Adler

 

[FriendlyFire]

Ok... this ship was notoriously successful during her time in WW2. What is the ship and what is she most famous for?

Not very good with ships but it dose look like a US "liberty" ship.
The US mass produced these with most being build in 8-14 days

 

[Hornblower]

It does look a bit like a Liberty class ship but it isn't. This particular ship accomplished something that no other ship of her type had ever done. Her stunning results vindicated the very existence of the type.

 

[dgfred]

What about a 'Victory Ship' ?

 

[cidknee]

french victory ship? lol....jk

 

[nonconformist]

Maybe a Q-ship?
Attracts a U-boat, who attacks it from close, with the deck gun, at which point, the superstructure collapses, revealing a number of cannons manned by Royal Navy?

 

[Adler17]

I knew it and I think to fasten it a bit up and to give the people guessing here a chance I think I am allowed to say, that nobody got it until now.

Adler

 

[FriendlyFire]

It does look a bit like a Liberty class ship but it isn't. This particular ship accomplished something that no other ship of her type had ever done. Her stunning results vindicated the very existence of the type.

The only Raider (Qboat is a ww1 term) to have sunk a light crusier. That is the only merchant navy story that i can recall.

HMAS sydney was surpised by the german raider and both ships went down. I dont recall the raiders name. The sydney actually survived the encounter but had been damaged. She attempted to make landbound when about 45mins later wrecked by an exposion she sunk with all hands.

 

[Hornblower]

The only Raider (Qboat is a ww1 term) to have sunk a light crusier. That is the only merchant navy story that i can recall.

HMAS sydney was surpised by the german raider and both ships went down. I dont recall the raiders name. The sydney actually survived the encounter but had been damaged. She attempted to make landbound when about 45mins later wrecked by an exposion she sunk with all hands.

Yes you are correct. It is the auxillary cruiser Kormoran which used to disguise itself as a humble merchant ship. It would close on enemy trade shipping then drop the sides and blast away. Never meant to engage warships the Kormoran is the only auxillary raider ever to sink a large warship.

Kormoran had been running rampant in the Indian Ocean and Indonesia when she attacted the attention of HMAS Sydney an Australian Light Cruiser of some 7000 tons and eight 6 inch guns on the 20th of November 1941 off the West Australian coast. Aware that a raider had been sinking shipping in the vicinity Sydney approached with total disregard to the warning signs and came alongside Kormoran at a range of 1000 yards. Needless to say when Kormoran dropped the ruse and opened up with her armament the Sydney was in trouble. Sydney did manage to fire back but only after considerable damage had been done to her first. The warships armament wrecked the Kormoran and the German crew took to the lifeboats as it began to sink. They were later picked up on the Australian coast and interned as POW's. During interrogation they reported that they last saw Sydney drifting over the horizon without power and on fire. Some time later in the darkness they saw a flash and then darkness. All 645 men onboard died and the wreck of Sydney has never been found.

Special mention for Adler17 for getting it straight away.
Your turn FriendlyFire.

 

[Adler17]

The HSK 8 Kormoran was built originally as freighter Steiermark in 1938 by F. Krupp Germania yard, Kiel. It was transformed into an auxiliar cruiser by the Deutsche Werft, Hamburg, in 1940.
The ship datas:
Tonnage: 8.736 BRT/ 19.900 t
Length over all: 164 m
Broad: 20,2 m
Depth: 8,5 m
Speed: 18 kn
range: 84.500 sm
Patrol days: 352
Crew: 401
Weapons:
Guns: 6 5.9" guns (15 cm), 2 1.5" PAK (to stop enemy merchants)
FlaK: 2 3,7 cm, 5 2 cm
Torpedotubes: 4 tubes above, 2 under the waterline
Small Fast Attack Craft: LS 3
Mines: 360 (+ 30 for LS 3)
Planes: 2

The Kormoran left Gdingen (then Gotenhafen) on December 3rd 1940. The ship broke through the Denmark strait into the Atlantic and sunk there 2 merchants in January 1941. It met in the following time with the Auxiliar cruiser HSK 5 Pinguin, the supply ship Nordmark, the prize Duquesa and U 124. In March 2 tanker were sunk. After meeting HSK 2 Atlantis, Kormoran left the Atlantic via the Cape of Good Hope end of April 1941. In the Indian Ocean she oiled after the loss of the Pinguin the supply ship Alstertor. A mining of Madras was not made since an enemy auxiliar cruiser, HMS Canton, was spotted. In the following time she terrorized the waters from Indonesia to Madagascar. In October she met the supplyship Kulmerland for taking over supplies a last time.
On November the 19th, a warship was spotted and came nearer. It was the Australian CL HMAS Sydney. The Sydney was searching a German auxiliar cruiser, the Kromoran, and wanted to warn a Dutch ship, the Kormoran flew the Dutch ensign, which was also not totally koscher. But they neared the ship- and the Dutch ship was suddenly flying the German ensign. The Kormoran fired 2 torpedoes. One of them hit the front part and disabled the 4 front main guns. Also the 6 guns of the Kormoran fired on the Sydney. However she managed to hit the Kormoran 4 times killing 76 sailors. But soon she was disabled and drifted burning and sinking away into the darkness. An explosion was spotted soon after by the Kormoran. No one found a sign of the cruiser until now.
But also the Kormoran was damaged heavily as one Australian shell had hit the engine room. So the commander, Fregattenkapitän Dettmers, gave the order to scuttle the ship. The survivors landed on the Australian shore and became PoW.
Although the Kormoran was lost, the loss of a real cruiser was much bigger.
That is the story happening 64 years ago.

Adler

 

[Zardnaar]

I read about the Kormoran. One theory had that is was latter torpedoed by the Japanese and the survivors machine gunned in the water. It would seem its hard to lose a ship with all hands- even the Hood had 3 survivors. I didn't really believe it myself but I think the German crew were also suspected of killing the crew of the Sydney.

Personally I think the Germans got lucky sinking a cruiser and the Aussies were very unlucky and lost the ship with all hands. I've only heard of 1 confirmed incident of German Kriegsmarine (sp?) murdering surviving sailors in the water and that was a Uboat captain.

 

[Hornblower]

The machine gunning theory was spread when a Carly float from the Sydney washed up on the Australian shore a long way from where the engagement occurred. It supposedly had bullet holes all through it which gave rise to the theory that the survivors were gunned by the Germans or a Jap submarine. The Australian War Memorial recently did tests on this float and found that it wasn't machine gunned at all.
It is certainly a mystery that such a large ship can disappear like that but if an explosion not unlike the Hood occurred those unlucky enough to survive would find themselves in one of the largest expanses of untravelled water on the planet with a current that sweeps out into the middle of the great expanse away from the Australian coast before finally touching the bottom of India over 2000 miles away. Unlike the Atlantic there wasn't any chance of aircraft spotting you or a convoy coming past.
To this day the Australian Navy has a standing order to their survey vessels that when they transit along the west coast they must turn on their sonars on the off chance that something may get picked up. I think Robert Ballard of Bismarck and Titanic fame has a better chance of solving the mystery.

 

[Adler17]

There were in both world wars only one incident each in which German navy commanders shot at enemy sailors who just left a sinking ship. In the first world war it was an incident with a sunk hospital ship, in which after the war the Reichsgericht sentenced the committers to imprisonment, but they could flee.
In the other case, Uboat commander Heinz- Wilhelm Eck sunk with U 852 the Greek merchant vessel Peleus while en route to the Indian ocean. He was strictly warned to avoid any hints that he could leave. Otherwise he would be doomed. That happened several times. So he went too far. As it was his first voyage as commander he feared the life boats and debries parts of the Peleus would give hints on his boat and so tried to avoid that by machine gunning and throwing grenades. His aim was not to kill the crew but to sink the hints. His boat was later sunk by the allies. He and his crew came as PoW in British captivity. Later he was tried for war crimes in Hamburg by the Brits and executed with two others of his crew. His two attourneys did soon after under mysterious circumstances. The case files are still kept secret by the Brits.
Source: http://www.uboat.net/history/peleus.htm
What I think: This was a war crime indeed. But the punishment was too harsh. IF he really believed he was in life danger if not doing so, as there are many hints to say so, he was not justified but still not guilty. I mean: If you are on a lifeboat with place for one person, you´re not guilty if you kill another man trying to get the boat. Nevertheless you are also not justified. This is called entschuldigender Notstand (excused emergency state) in German Strafgesetzbuch (§ 35).
So IMO this was only Siegerjustiz and by far no fair trial.

Adler

 

[privatehudson]

What he did was murder, he got what he deserved. There's no justification in firing into an area filled with defenceless people to avoid detection (and I can't believe he didn't know that by doing so he'd hit the sailors so his excuse is rather weak), he should have taken his chances rather than murdering people.

The link doesn't work properly either, when you click on the chapters it just returns you to the same page listing the chapters.

 

[nonconformist]

Hear, hear.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Pretty sure this year the 60th anniveriary of WW2 that the Australian government has made a multimillion dollar grant I think 2.6 Million (or around that) to search for the wreck of the HMAS Sydney

 

[privatehudson]

Question damnit!

 

[Hornblower]

Your turn FriendlyFire before the crowd gets ugly and starts gunning lifeboats.

 

[CruddyLeper]

What he did was murder, he got what he deserved. There's no justification in firing into an area filled with defenceless people to avoid detection (and I can't believe he didn't know that by doing so he'd hit the sailors so his excuse is rather weak), he should have taken his chances rather than murdering people.

I'd have rather he just admitted it. I mean, even if he was just going for the lifeboats he was leaving those sailors to a slow, lingering death. Far better to shoot them and at least make it quick.

A case of higher authority saying "Do whatever necessary" and the spear carriers taking that as direct authorisation for war crimes.