3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[Hinin]

I really like that we are able to discuss like this about all these future UCs, but I think we need first and foremost to be sure that everything already done works well. This is why I think we should not speak of civs not in the UC by Civilization until we are happy with what we've got (I'll use my free time to test as much things as possible).

Sidenote : I've tested the Shotelai. The -1 MP works fine, but there should be a message like "Maimed -1 PM". The other interesting thing is that the malus only applies once (so being attacked by two Shotelai doesn't make your unit lose 2 MP). Is it intentionnal ?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Yes it is intentional that Maim doesn't stack. It would be incredibly op if it did. I also didn't put any message but if you want I can easily put it into code.

 

[De_Genius]

ok i see. You need 2 other events. One is red's combatEnded with check if unit:IsDead(). Look into Koa.lua. Second one is similar to SachemsCouncil.lua GameEvents.CityTrained.Add. but to make them work you need to enable them in sql like i did in Events folder in my mod part.

What is the difference between CombatResults and CombatEnded, and where can I find the method signature of the methods ?

Nevermind. They have the same method signature.

 

[pineappledan]

I really like that we are able to discuss like this about all these future UCs, but I think we need first and foremost to be sure that everything already done works well. This is why I think we should not speak of civs not in the UC by Civilization until we are happy with what we've got

Lol, I prefer to have all civs partially planned before we engage in the coding because it helps us identify "holes", and techs/UCs which are over-stacked. With the work I've put into the 4UC by civs spreadsheet, there are only 4 civs still laying fallow since your original thread: Huns, Zulu, and Persia.

re: the Inca tech spread, here's where they're at right now
1 Ancient UU (Slinger)
1 classical UI (Terrace farm)

There's so much material to pick from for Incan architecture and culture. Seriously, this culture is one of the most fertile and distinct civs in the entire game

Here are the proposals, with a brief description of what that UC is in real life:
Ancient/Classical UU (Pathfinder/Scout - Chasqui) - The messengers, essentially a "pony express" made of marathoners instead of horsemen. They were very fit and well-trained. They could read the Khipu system, and had relay stations which housed fresh runners called Tambo to make messages travel quickly.

Ancient UB (Granary - Qullqa) - storehouses for basically everything, not just agricultural products. The Inca had a central command economy at very high altitudes, so they were very vulnerable to food shortages. The Qullqa stored potatoes, building materials, feathers, luxuries, tributes. Royal Qullqas housed the entire coca production of the Inca empire, which held a monopoly on coca, and distributed it to chieftains, nobility and for diplomatic purposes

Ancient/Classical/medieval UB (Caravansary/Customs House/Barracks - Tambo) - Relay station, Inn, Barracks, Administrative compound all rolled into one. They kept Chasquis ready to run messages, but also housed imperial garrisons and controlled the local Qullqas

Classical UB (Library - Yachaywasi) - Centre of learning within the Inca Empire. They taught customs, mythology, combat, and how to read the 'khipu', a system of knots on strings which were kept for administration. The khipu system was the closest thing the Inca had to a written language.

Classical UB (Aqueduct - Chicheria) - Breweries/Speakeasies for the production and sale of Chicha, a traditional corn beer. This drink had religious/ceremonial uses, but also was a part of everyday life of the peasantry, who would drink chicha during festivals. As a personal note, chicha tastes awful; the stuff is just rancid.

Medieval UB (Castle - Cyclopean Citadel) - The Inca rarely relied on fortified structures and sieges in their warfare, but the fortifications which do exist are truly impressive. Inca masonry would use massive stones, sometimes weighing as much as 4 tons, and cut them to fit like puzzle-pieces against each other - a technique which circumvented the need for mortar.

My thoughts:
Chasqui should be a scout, or else Inca is doubled up on ancient era units, and having two ultra-early UUs would suck because you don't get to build many of either. I don't think they should be able to build roads, since they were runners, they didn't actually help build them.

The presence of a UI, I think, gives some liberty for where the UB should land. I don't think it much matters, but avoiding the classical era would be a plus. My personal vote would be towards either the Granary, Caravansary or aqueduct replacements (we haven't done any of those buildings yet).

The Aymara mod has a Coca resource which we could use. Adding new resources, as others have pointed out, is a pain in the ass, but having a building which gives cities a copy of a unique luxury could give players an actual reason to attack the Inca. Right now the Inca end up being ignored, because they are incredibly hard to invade, and there's frankly little incentive to do so anyways. Since Coca (the natural source of cocaine) is a pain and appetite suppressant, it was given to workers to make them work harder. You could make the monopoly increase improvement rate, which would be a unique monopoly attribute.

 

[FoxOfWar]

For Inca, if we go with Scout Chasqui, we probably want to avoid at least a library replacement so they don't get everything within very few techs of each other.

My vote would be for Aqueduct or Caravansary replacement, to spread them a bit across the tech tree. Possibly even the Castle replacement...

...though Castle replacement would definitely push them towards 'impregnable mountain civ' even more so than they already are. Not sure if this is a good or a bad thing.

Aqueduct replacement in turn should probably give that food bonus on mountains they lost on their UA a while back, but otherwise bonuses other than food/growth so it doesn't go overboard together with Terrace Farm - which it still might, but testing will tell.

 

[IcyAngel]

My goodness, you guys are working bees; the last time I came here, two weeks ago, you were 20+ pages back! *-*

I will be using these a lot.

 

[Hinin]

My goodness, you guys are working bees; the last time I came here, two weeks ago, you were 20+ pages back! *-*

I will be using these a lot.

These modders are motivated, hard-working, and talented. I'm sure the results will be excellent.

PS. : Quick note : since the last version of VP gives to captured workers a promotion decreasing their building rate by 50 %, why not strengthen the "War captives" promotion of the Eagle by making workers captured or spawned by this unit not have the "Enslaved worker" promotion ?

 

[Blue Ghost]

These modders are motivated, hard-working, and talented. I'm sure the results will be excellent.

PS. : Quick note : since the last version of VP gives to captured workers a promotion decreasing their building rate by 50 %, why not strengthen the "War captives" promotion of the Eagle by making workers captured or spawned by this unit not have the "Enslaved worker" promotion ?

The way War Captives is currently coded, the workers spawned belong to you, so they should not be enslaved by default.

 

[Hinin]

The way War Captives is currently coded, the workers spawned belong to you, so they should not be enslaved by default.

Ok, but what about captured workers ?

 

[pineappledan]

The way War Captives is currently coded, the workers spawned belong to you, so they should not be enslaved by default.

This change to worker capturing is getting a lot of friction in the patch updates... I think we should ignore it for the time being and wait for the dust to settle. We might find these changes are reversed

 

[Hinin]

My thoughts:
Chasqui should be a scout, or else Inca is doubled up on ancient era units, and having two ultra-early UUs would suck because you don't get to build many of either. I don't think they should be able to build roads, since they were runners, they didn't actually help build them.

The presence of a UI, I think, gives some liberty for where the UB should land. I don't think it much matters, but avoiding the classical era would be a plus. My personal vote would be towards either the Granary, Caravansary or aqueduct replacements (we haven't done any of those buildings yet).

The Aymara mod has a Coca resource which we could use. Adding new resources, as others have pointed out, is a pain in the ass, but having a building which gives cities a copy of a unique luxury could give players an actual reason to attack the Inca. Right now the Inca end up being ignored, because they are incredibly hard to invade, and there's frankly little incentive to do so anyways. Since Coca (the natural source of cocaine) is a pain and appetite suppressant, it was given to workers to make them work harder. You could make the monopoly increase improvement rate, which would be a unique monopoly attribute.

I'm ok with the Chasqui being a Scout replacement. However, I definitively think that, from a gameplay point of view, giving it the ability to build roads is still pertinent : I know that Chasqui were messengers and didn't build roads, but we have no way to incentivize on this role without making them stay in the Incan territory, which is highly counter-intuitive for a reconnaissance unit, which is why I wanted them to at least make your empire go faster through road construction (they would litteraly "pave tha way" for your progression). Why not test this ingame before deciding if it is worth it or not (would it be too complicated to implement ?) ?

I would like to see a Coca unique luxury resource (which could spawn below or next to cities with the Granary or Aqueduc UB) : it would incentivize other players to look toward Incan territory (which doesn't represent a lot of interest ingame nowadays), and a construction buff on monopoly would be original and useful (bonus on Workers and Chasqui ? ). If we really want to spread their UC, why not give them an early Grocer (available at Civil Service, with bonus to city connection and spawning Coca) ?

 

[Hinin]

Maybe you guys could be interesting in combining this with a new idea I had...

New ideology and civil war on ideology adoption?

We are already handful with the UCs, so please don't talk about things that will never be done on this thread.

 

[pineappledan]

but we have no way to incentivize on this role without making them stay in the Incan territory, which is highly counter-intuitive for a reconnaissance unit, which is why I wanted them to at least make your empire go faster through road construction (they would litteraly "pave tha way" for your progression). Why not test this ingame before deciding if it is worth it or not (would it be too complicated to implement ?) ?

There's the "Khipu runner" promotion which I suggested which would yield science on exploration. That would make the Chasqui very useful outside friendly territory too.

I just think that they need something for inside their own territory too, and I don't think that turning them into workers is the best way to do it. The Mit'a system (the public service "tax" levied against peasants) was mutually exclusive with military service. You either payed your mit'a by building roads and swing sets or you payed it by being a soldier or Chasqui. You didn't do both.
Giving them 15 heal in friendly territory would make them potent defensive units, buying further into Inca's defensive playstyle. It's very hard to make a messenger unit relevant in a game which gives you a 3rd person omniscient view of your empire. This promotion is a way of simulating how Chasqui were kept "fresh" and in peak condition.
It would have impact on exploration, because you could send them out, explore a bit, come back and heal, and then explore another area on the other side of your empire.

I would like to see a Coca unique luxury resource (which could spawn below or next to cities with the Granary or Aqueduc UB)

I'm not suggesting we make an entirely new tile resource, just give the luxury to the city like vanilla indonesia used to do. Adding a unique resource that spawns near the city when the civ already has a UI would be frustrating, especially if the resource took up valuable UI real-estate.

It would essentially work in an identical way to the Kongolese Raffia Mill from that mod

: it would incentivize other players to look toward Incan territory (which doesn't represent a lot of interest ingame nowadays), and a construction buff on monopoly would be original and useful (bonus on Workers and Chasqui ? ). If we really want to spread their UC, why not give them an early Grocer (available at Civil Service, with bonus to city connection and spawning Coca) ?

I think a Tambo Caravansary replacement fits the best. Either the Tambo or Qullqa UAs could be said to have "storehouses" of Coca to be plundered. It wouldn't make sense on the Chincheria, since that's a brewery for corn-beer and has no association with Coca. Furthermore, getting a unique luxury in the late medieval would be significantly less interesting. It would be nicer to get the luxury earlier

Incan Tambo (Caravansary Replacement)

Spoiler :

Available at Currency
no maintenance
+2 Gold (up from +1 gold on caravansary)
When a Land Trade Route originating here and targeting another Civ is completed, receive a Tourism boost with the Civ based on your recent Culture output.
Land Trade Routes gain +50% Range and +2 Gold
+1 Gold from merchants
Earn 33% more from internal trade routes (up from 25%)
Units in this city heal +5 HP per turn whether or not they take an action
+2 production from granaries in city
Provides +1 Coca, a free Luxury Resource to the city (remains on capture)
+2 Gold from Truffles
+1prod/+1 Culture from Cotton
+1Gold/+1Prod from Furs
100% capture chance

Coca (Luxury)
Monopoly bonus:
10% CS/RCS to units adjacent to a mountain (coca is used as a remedy for altitude sickness)
+15% worker improvement speed (Coca is a stimulant, and it suppresses pain, hunger and thirst)

 

[Jarula]

We are already handful with the UCs, so please don't talk about things that will never be done on this thread.

Sorry about that wasn't thinking.

 

[Hinin]

Sorry about that wasn't thinking.

No hard feelings.

There's the "Khipu runner" promotion which I suggested which would yield science on exploration. That would make the Chasqui very useful outside friendly territory without directly tying it to military strength. I just think that they need something for inside their own territory too, and I don't think that turning them into workers is the best way to do it

I have two problems with this promotion :
- It is a watered-down version of the "Flag bearer" promotion of the Bandeirantes (at a time where there is a lot to explore, that's right, but I don't like seeing promotions looking too much like each other)
- In the early game, I fear that should be either op or useless (I mean, you could double your science yield per turn in the early game with this if this is 3 science per turn, and it's quite RNG dependant, since the size of your starting continent will directly influence the power of this promotion, and so of one of your UCs)

What I would like is a economic advantage brought by this unit without it directly giving you yields...

I'm not suggesting we make an entirely new tile resource, just give the luxury to the city like vanilla indonesia used to do. Either the Tambo or Qullqa UAs could be said to have "storehouses" of Coca to be plundered. Adding a unique resource that spawns near the city when the civ already has a UI would be frustrating, especially if the resource took up valuable UI real-estate.

It would essentially work in an identical way to the Kongolese Raffia Mill from that mod

Oh... I still think making Incan land a little more interesting to conquerors should be a thing... Why not make the capture rate of the building giving the LR 100 % ?

 

[pineappledan]

I edited my previous post with a proposal for the Tambo.

Oh... I still think making Incan land a little more interesting to conquerors should be a thing... Why not make the capture rate of the building giving the LR 100 % ?

That's precisely what I am suggesting. The Luxury needs to be in the city so that conquering the city is more attractive.
If the coca was tied to the Tambo it would be lost whether or not the tambo has a 0% capture or 100% capture, since the building would be converted to a regular caravansary afterwards. The luxury would have to be added in a way that ties it to the city itself.

I have two problems with this promotion :
- It is a watered-down version of the "Flag bearer" promotion of the Bandeirantes (at a time where there is a lot to explore, that's right, but I don't like seeing promotions looking too much like each other)
- In the early game, I fear that should be either op or useless (I mean, you could double your science yield per turn in the early game with this if this is 3 science per turn, and it's quite RNG dependant, since the size of your starting continent will directly influence the power of this promotion, and so of one of your UCs)

What I would like is a economic advantage brought by this unit without it directly giving you yields...

I'll have you know that it is almost impossible for me to respond to your criticisms without sarcasm.

Economically impactful without affecting yields, eh?
Have promotions for 86 units all feel unique within the confines of the game mechanics and AI logic, eh?
Suggesting that if I playtested a unit, my qualms with the historicity of a unit would go away, eh?
Having units, civs and buildings which aren't affected by RNG w.r.t. resource placement, and continent size, eh? Because the Inca civ is in no other way affected by RNG in the form of, say, mountain placement.

You realize how hard you're making this for me? I'd be convinced you were joking if you hadn't already shown such sincerity.

Watered-down versions of other promotions are easy to code.
No, making a unit capable of building roads is very easy. It's just 1 setting that can be changed in SQL
As for non-economic benefits to the civ's economy:
Messenger - Chasqui stationed in a city eliminate unhappiness from isolation
Chaskwiwasi - +1 movement when starting turn in a fort, citadel or city
Khipu Interpreter - +1 science in cities with a garrisoned Chasqui No yields! BAD PINEAPPLE, BAD!

 

[Hinin]

I'll have you know that it is almost impossible for me to respond to your criticisms without sarcasm.
Economically impactful without affecting yields, eh?
Have promotions for 86 units all feel unique within the confines of the game mechanics and AI logic, eh?
Suggesting that if I playtested a unit, my qualms with the bad historicity of a unit would go away, eh?
Having units, civs and buildings which aren't affected by RNG for resource placement, and continent size, eh? Because the Inca civ is in no other way affected by RNG in form of, say, mountain placement.
You realize how hard you're making this for me?

By "Economically impactful without affecting yields", I meant that the unit shouldn't have a attributes stating "when doing that, gain yield" (we already have so much of this), but more something like "this unit can help you build things/settle lands strengthening your economy". Sorry for the quiproquo.

"Have promotions for 86 units all feel unique within the confines of the game mechanics and AI logic, eh?" It's simply a preference I have : when possible, try finding something else.

"Suggesting that if I playtested a unit, my qualms with the bad historicity of a unit would go away" : I never suggested this, I said that I think that testing the building mechanic would be interesting in knowing if this has its place on this UM, and that, for me, historical accuracy is very important but still under gameplay elements (so, even if I love studying history, it wouldn't hurt me seeing Chasqui building roads in addition to running on them).

"Having units, civs and buildings which aren't affected by RNG for resource placement, and continent size, eh? Because the Inca civ is in no other way affected by RNG in form of, say, mountain placement." : when the map is built, each civilization is assigned to a place where it is supposed to perform well (so coast for Denmark, Mountain for Inca, forest for Iroquois), but the building program of the map doesn't take into account the size of the landmass you're on (example, you begin on a small continent with only one other civ and three CS, like in my last Polynesian playsession) ; I'm simply saying that using a UC attribute for something whose utility can change so dramatically is one more RNG element I wouldn't like to see.

I highly respect your opinions (you've been the source of numerous good ideas, and you're a modder where I'm only a bystander), but my philosophy on this seems to differ quite a lot from yours (for once ).

"You realize how hard you're making this for me?" => sorry if I didn't express my point of view the best way, but please stay calm : we are all friendly collaborators here

Amically, Hinin

PS : "I'd be convinced you were joking if you hadn't already shown such sincerity." => I come from France, how do you want me not to be frank ?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Why not use the standard approach of spawning the luxury on a tile?

Yields on exploration is fun, and I wouldn’t mind seeing another unit with it. It would be very powerful on a Pathfinder. What about making it gold for exploring rather than science? Less early-game snowballing, but still quite impactful, and would fit the economic angle.

 

[Hinin]

Why not use the standard approach of spawning the luxury on a tile?

I would be all for it if it doesn't appear too early (we don't want a simili-Indonesia, right ?).

Yields on exploration is fun, and I wouldn’t mind seeing another unit with it. It would be very powerful on a Pathfinder. What about making it gold for exploring rather than science? Less early-game snowballing, but still quite impactful, and would fit the economic angle.

.... Why not (the balancing would be key here) ? What I really fear with the "science through exploration" is the snowballing it could create, but with gold it would be a much less threatening result.

 

[pineappledan]

RNG is a fact of the game. Furthermore, you would still be able to build Chasqui at compass; they would obsolete at zeppelins. If you have to delay your exploration because your continent is small that is a) not as much of a deal as being, say, a warmonger with no one to kill. and b) merely a delay in the use of this unit, not a cancellation.

Gold would be okay. The reason I suggested science is because Chasqui were literate in the use of Khipu, which they used to store their messages and reports. Khipu is a very difficult form of 'writing', which they often had to act as interpreters for, once they had reached their destination, so science as a yield reflected this highly technical aspect of their job.

Not so much problems, but quandaries w.r.t spawning an actual coca tile:

• There are no civs in VP, which just "Get" a resource, instead of having it appear as a tile, so Inca having a luxury tied directly to a city would be unique
  • This factors into other gameplay considerations like whether or not to raze
• Terrace farms don't improve resources, so if a unique luxury spawned on top of prime UI real-estate then it would only cause frustration. People should be happy when they get cocaine
• It's more work, because we would then need graphics resources for the coca tile instead of just the resource icons
• The mechanics for the luxury simply "appearing" are wholely intact, and need only be lifted from the Kongo mod, changing only the icon art assets
• A Tambo or Qulla is associated with the storage of coca, not the cultivation of it. Coca production would be better represented by a unique plantation or something more tied to agricultural administration. Then we're getting into territory that overlaps to an uncomfortable degree with the existing terrace farm