3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[FoxOfWar]

@Hinin I must echo pineappledan here a bit: it's almost impossible to have that many uniques and not have some overlap. I'd rather we focus that the combination of the unit it replaces, which tech it unlocks, cost, power/ranged power, movement, promotions etc, etc together make every unique, well, unique - and all that together with the civ it belongs to. A rifleman replacement for Sweden should (and does) look different from Ethiopia, and all that jazz.

Having a handful of units all get 'Sentry'(to pick a somewhat-talked example) is hardly the end of the world, if they are all different units, from different civs, at different eras, filling different roles aside from also being decent at sighting ahead.

Re: yields from exploration: I would probably start from yields Brazil does NOT get, to make it different. What if it gave food and production to nearest city or capital? Sure, there is snowball potential, but there's snowball potential in every unique in this game about snowball building if we are being honest.

 

[pineappledan]

I'd be more concerned with how yields tied to a single city (probably your capital) would affect how people would play.

If exploration gave production, you could rush wonders by sending chasqui to explore at specific times.
If exploration gave food, you could get into a situation where you grow a city beyond the reasonable limits of its border growth
If exploration gave faith.... oh god I don't even want to think of the implications.
If Exploration gave Golden Age points... huh... that might actually be pretty good

In contrast, gold, culture and science are all just meters to fill, the more the better.
As I said though, I chose science because I believe it fits the unit best, historically speaking

Are people happy with the Tambo Caravansary replacement then? Shall I trim down the 4UC spreadsheet to just that suggestion, and we can tweak and discuss the features on just that building?

Do people have opinions on all the other proposed promotions for Chasqui?

• Altitude training (double movement and 10% CS in hills)
• Tambo System (15hp healed every turn in friendly territory)
• Chasquiwasis (+1 movement when starting turn on city, fort or citadel)
• Messenger (no unhappiness from isolation if Chasqui is garrisoned in city)
• Khipu Runner (+1 Gold on exploration)

Not to beat a dead horse here, @Hinin but two things I forgot about:

• The Mit’a taxation system of the Inca made military service mutually exclusive from public works. You were either building roads or serving as a soldier/chasqui. Never both.
• the bandeirante can build forts, Mines, quarries, BW camps and regular camps. Suggesting worker actions as a way of differentiating chasqui from bandeirantes isn’t really any better than changing up exploration yields
• This criticism and your criticism of the holkan’s goody hut bonus, while noted, betray a problem with the scout line: they have narrow usage. We can repurpose them into military units like we did the koa, or we can make them better at exploring. Inevitably their narrow applications are going to be reflected in a narrow design space for promotions.

And here's the Tambo again:

Spoiler :

Incan Tambo (Caravansary Replacement)
Available at Currency
no maintenance
+2 Gold (up from +1 gold on caravansary)
When a Land Trade Route originating here and targeting another Civ is completed, receive a Tourism boost with the Civ based on your recent Culture output.
Land Trade Routes gain +50% Range and +2 Gold
+1 Gold from merchants
Earn 33% more from internal trade routes (up from 25%, contribute to the Chasqui system, could be upped to 50% maybe?)
Units in this city heal +5 HP per turn whether or not they take an action
+2 production from granaries in city (Granaries in city converted to Qullqas, now are also used as supply depots)
Provides +1 Coca, a free Luxury Resource to the city (remains on capture. Has to be tied to city itself, not building so people can't sell their tambos before capture or lose the resource if building is destroyed on conquest)
+2 Gold from Truffles
+1prod/+1 Culture from Cotton
+1Gold/+1Prod from Furs
100% capture chance (up from 60%, shouldn't be necessary, just a bit of flavour. The Spanish co-opted the Tambo and Chasqui in their administration of their conquests)

Coca (Luxury)
Monopoly bonus:
10% CS/RCS to units adjacent to a mountain (coca is used as a remedy for altitude sickness)
+15% worker improvement speed (Coca is a stimulant, and it suppresses pain, hunger and thirst)

 

[Hinin]

Ok, I agree with the opinion of the majority in that situation, since my opinion was "bizarre".
Inca has always been my favourite civilization to play, so playtesting them will be my main task when time comes.

 

[Jarula]

The tambos should spawn one elsewhere otherwise what about cities built on resources like iron or coal?

 

[pineappledan]

The tambos should spawn one elsewhere otherwise what about cities built on resources like iron or coal?

Yet another reason why I advocate for not having the resource “spawn” at all

 

[FoxOfWar]

I think we have more-or-less workable takes on Incas now. Can always return to drawing board if they don't feel right in practice, but looks good to me on paper.

I will probably start a new test-game tomorrow, with the new versions of both VP and this. Once I finish my France game, I just got the SPADs and have to put them to the test.

 

[Jarula]

Why not though more luxories could be cool.

Think about it like invading Indonesia for pepper nutmeg and cloves

A reason to take Peru for coca and Egypt for flax.

I know when I play those neighbors with ui's are targets no. 1-7...

That's why Rome should not have a UI but a UW or UB...

Honestly aside from Portugal france and Spain celts leave uis for noneuropeans

 

[Jarula]

Honestly why not make all ubs 100% capture...?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ok I found why @Hinin couldn't give Medic I promotions to his units even tough he had Barbican. He played as China and my lua code I did check for Casimir III, so Wu Zetian was not allowed to use it. Now as I can see There's column named NeverCapture and for many buildings it is equal to 1 (so hey cannot be captured, so Wu Zetian couldn't use it, so my code was correct in that particular situation). Now my question is: what building should have such an ability to be never captured? I can see analyzing the table that it is not dependent on Uniqueness of the building, but it is inherited from unit class.

I will set range bonus from barbican to garrisoned units for now. 33% as you said.

 

[Hinin]

Ok I found why @Hinin couldn't give Medic I promotions to his units even tough he had Barbican. He played as China and my lua code I did check for Casimir III, so Wu Zetian was not allowed to use it. Now as I can see There's column named NeverCapture and for many buildings it is equal to 1 (so hey cannot be captured, so Wu Zetian couldn't use it, so my code was correct in that particular situation). Now my question is: what building should have such an ability to be never captured? I can see analyzing the table that it is not dependent on Uniqueness of the building, but it is inherited from unit class.

Ok... Sorry for that... I was testing a lot of things at the same time, and changing civilization everytime wasn't possible for time reasons (my game has a tendency to crash when I return to the main menu).

I've check what you proposed for the Huns, pineappledan, and have written comments.

 

[pineappledan]

I've posted possible UCs for the remaining 3 "unclaimed" civs: Huns, Persia and Zulu.

All civs are now either completed, have been claimed, or have been posted onto the 4UC by civilization spreadsheet to be discussed and claimed by a modder. Civs which are unclaimed are marked by an asterisk on their sheet

I think we will have to determine balance and such once all the stuff is coded. A great example of this is the barbican. We can't balance it by only comparing it to the Dojo, because Japan's UA is comparatively mediocre and the Samurai straight-ups sucks without the Dojo. The Dojo is friggin' gang-busters as a UB. It will take having this all play out in a game in order for us to get holistic opinions about each civ, once they have all their UCs.

That having been said. It would be great to get some really good civ players in to see what their opinions are for what we have proposed. It could save coders some time if people with a deep systems knowledge of VP could be asked to look at what we have proposed.

I think in order to do that though we would have to beef up the 4UC by civilization spreadsheet so that it is accessible and easy to read for an outsider. Someone like Deadstarre or ElliotS advising us on balance could save us a lot of grief in the long-run

 

[FoxOfWar]

...I am actually rather positively surprised we're this far along. I shall have to speed up my testing.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Should I restrict new "Barbican" promotion from Barbican to some UnitCombatType? Ranged, Siege, Helicopter, Gun? I did for now version where it is not verified. I wanted to add all mentioned types, but "gun" type contains ranged units (musketman f.i.) and rifleman (melee).

I finished Babylon. Took E-temenanki pictire from this mod. I tried to change colors of previous picture but it was so bad I gave up. As you said Ziggurat picture is used for Sacrificial Altar religious building. So I found this pretty picture. I know it might be a bit different.

 

[pineappledan]

I would just make it a straight buff to ranged attack on the city itself. No conditions. It's a pretty situational buff, so I don't see much point in making it rely on conditions.

Edit: I now see that you made it a buff so that ranged units stationed in the city have increased damage. Thats cool too

Looking at the Acropolis, it gives a Whopping 10 defense to cities. The Barbican looks pretty small potatoes right now, so maybe we should beef up the defense it gives?

Or it could deal 10 damage to adjacent enemy units per turn, but that looks too much like the Kasbah.

Edit: With input from Hinin, we have come up with some alternative ideas w.r.t. Hunnic, and Siamese UCs. Any comments on the UCs is appreciated. If people have ideas for what they would like to see for these civs, please create proposals for them and you can post directly into the spreadsheet.

 

[Jarula]

Idea for Persia

Fire temple replaces temple available super early.

Grants basically temple stuff plus bonus golden age points and culture?

 

[pineappledan]

Fire temple replaces temple available super early.

Grants basically temple stuff plus bonus golden age points and culture?

A fire temple would work. I've posted it up on the spreadsheet.

The Paridaeza has me more excited, plus we can get a better tech spread with a garden replacement. Hinin made a great point re: religion buildings, in that if we can't give a strong guarantee for a religion then we should avoid helping faith game, especially if it means re-orienting a civ which currently doesn't have a leg-up on early faith

@BazaarJack, could we get your opinion regarding Japan, Morocco and Portugal, seeing as you're the one who has planned to code them?
Could you post either here, or on the 4UC by civilizations spreadsheet what you plan to do for Portugal, Morocco, and Japan, with techs, yields, promotions, etc.?

UCs we have discussed for your civs:
Morocco:
Riad (garden)
Berber Pirate (corvette)
Sounded like these two picks were pretty uncontroversial

Japan:
Noh Stage / Kabuki theater (opera house)
Gagabuke Guild (Musician's guild)
Yamato (Battleship)
Mikasa (Cruiser)
Daimyo (Great General)
Sounded like popular sentiment was towards he kabuki or noh stage. replacing guilds could be very hard to balance well. People are reasonably split on whether the Yamato or Mikasa is the better option. The Daimyo could be resurrected as a possibility if a proposal is made that the AI could swing with.
If the Vasco da Gama gets picked as the Portugal UU, then I would advocate for the Yamato.

Portugal:
University of Coimbra (Oxford University)
Cacador (Gatling Gun)
Vasco da Gama (Cruiser)
Very little has been said re: the Coimbra U, so people must not hate it. Sounds like Hinin, Adan and I are all leaning towards the Vasco da Gama as a more interesting possibility for the UU

 

[Jarula]

Fire temple

Temple available at writing
Fire Temple
200

160

1
+4
+1
+1
+1 and +1 from Incense, Wine and Amber.

Whenever a great person is expended grants
+10 +10 +10 scaling with Era or
+5 +5 +5
Reduces Religious Unrest and generates +25% religious pressure.

1 Great Work of Music slot

 

[pineappledan]

@Blue Ghost I assume your new icon is the new exam hall icon?
how did you make that icon look brushstroked like that? where do you get that filter?

 

[Jarula]

Try this out for size...

-- Buildings
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Buildings
(Type, BuildingClass, GreatPeopleRateModifier,

TradeRouteRecipientBonus, TradeRouteTargetBonus, GreatWorkSlotType,

GreatWorkCount, Cost, FreeStartEra, Happiness, NeverCapture,

GoldMaintenance, PrereqTech, ArtDefineTag, SpecialistType,

SpecialistCount, MinAreaSize, ConquestProb, HurryCostModifier, Help,

Description, Civilopedia, Strategy, IconAtlas, PortraitIndex)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', BuildingClass, 10,

TradeRouteRecipientBonus, TradeRouteTargetBonus, GreatWorkSlotType,

GreatWorkCount, Cost, FreeStartEra, Happiness, NeverCapture,

GoldMaintenance, PrereqTech, ArtDefineTag, SpecialistType,

SpecialistCount, MinAreaSize, ConquestProb, HurryCostModifier,

'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_3UC_FORUM_HELP', 'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_3UC_FORUM',

'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_3UC_FORUM_TEXT',

'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_3UC_FORUM_STRATEGY', 'ICON_ATLAS', 31
FROM Buildings WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_MARKET';
------------------------------
-- Building_Flavors
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_Flavors
(BuildingType, FlavorType,

Flavor)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', FlavorType, Flavor
FROM Building_Flavors WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_MARKET';
------------------------------
-- Building_ClassesNeededInCity
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_ClassesNeededInCity
(BuildingType,

BuildingClassType)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', BuildingClassType
FROM Building_ClassesNeededInCity WHERE BuildingType =

'BUILDING_MARKET';
------------------------------
-- Building_YieldChanges
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_YieldChanges
(BuildingType, YieldType,

Yield)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', YieldType, Yield
FROM Building_YieldChanges WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_MARKET';

INSERT INTO Building_YieldChanges
(BuildingType,

YieldType, Yield)
VALUES ('BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 3);


------------------------------
-- Building_ResourceQuantityRequirements
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_ResourceQuantityRequirements
(BuildingType, ResourceType, Cost)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', ResourceType, Cost
FROM Building_ResourceQuantityRequirements WHERE BuildingType =

'BUILDING_MARKET';
------------------------------
-- Building_ResourceYieldChanges
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_ResourceYieldChanges
(BuildingType,

ResourceType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES ('BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', 'RESOURCE_SUGAR',

'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
('BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', 'RESOURCE_SUGAR',

'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', 'RESOURCE_SPICES',

'YIELD_FOOD', 1),
('BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', 'RESOURCE_SPICES',

'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1);
------------------------------
-- Building_YieldModifiers
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_YieldModifiers
(BuildingType, YieldType, Yield)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3UC_FORUM', YieldType, Yield
FROM Building_YieldModifiers WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_MARKET';


--------------------------------
-- Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides
--------------------------------
INSERT INTO Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides
(CivilizationType,

BuildingClassType, BuildingType)
VALUES ('CIVILIZATION_ROME', 'BUILDINGCLASS_MARKET',

'BUILDING_3UC_FORUM');

 

[Jarula]

Oh and new garden replacements...? how do I get them to have the proper reqs as garden?

-- Buildings
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Buildings
(Type, BuildingClass, GreatPeopleRateModifier,

AllowsRangeStrike, Defense, ExtraCityHitPoints, CityWall, Cost,

GoldMaintenance, PrereqTech, ArtDefineTag,

XBuiltTriggersIdeologyChoice, SpecialistType, SpecialistCount,

MinAreaSize, ConquestProb, HurryCostModifier, Help, Description,

Civilopedia, Strategy, IconAtlas, PortraitIndex)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', BuildingClass, GreatPeopleRateModifier,

FreshWater, AllowsRangeStrike, Defense, ExtraCityHitPoints,CityWall,

Cost, GoldMaintenance, PrereqTech, ArtDefineTag,

XBuiltTriggersIdeologyChoice, SpecialistType, SpecialistCount,

MinAreaSize, ConquestProb, HurryCostModifier,

'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN_HELP', 'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN',

'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN_TEXT',

'TXT_KEY_BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN_STRATEGY', '3ROMEGARDEN_ATLAS', 0
FROM Buildings WHERE Type = 'BUILDING_GARDEN';
------------------------------
-- Building_Flavors
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_Flavors
(BuildingType, FlavorType,

Flavor)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', FlavorType, Flavor
FROM Building_Flavors WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_BATH';

INSERT INTO Building_Flavors
(BuildingType, FlavorType,

Flavor)
VALUES ('BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', 'FLAVOR_CULTURE', 10),
('BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', 'FLAVOR_GROWTH', 10),
('BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', 'FLAVOR_SCIENCE', 10);

------------------------------
-- Building_ClassesNeededInCity
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_ClassesNeededInCity
(BuildingType,

BuildingClassType)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', BuildingClassType
FROM Building_ClassesNeededInCity WHERE BuildingType =

'BUILDING_GARDEN';
------------------------------
-- Building_YieldChanges
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_YieldChanges
(BuildingType, YieldType,

Yield)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', YieldType, Yield
FROM Building_YieldChanges WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_BATH';

INSERT INTO Building_YieldChanges
(BuildingType,

YieldType, Yield)
VALUES ('BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 3),
('BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', 'YIELD_FOOD', 3),
('BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', 'YIELD_SCIENCE', 3);

------------------------------
-- Building_DomainProductionModifiers
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_DomainProductionModifiers
(BuildingType, DomainType, Modifier)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', DomainType, Modifier
FROM Building_DomainProductionModifiers WHERE BuildingType =

'BUILDING_BATH';

------------------------------
-- Building_UnitCombatProductionModifiers
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_UnitCombatProductionModifiers
(BuildingType, UnitCombatType, Modifier)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', UnitCombatType, Modifier
FROM Building_UnitCombatProductionModifiers WHERE BuildingType =

'BUILDING_BATH';

------------------------------
-- Building_ResourceQuantityRequirements
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_ResourceQuantityRequirements
(BuildingType, ResourceType, Cost)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', ResourceType, Cost
FROM Building_ResourceQuantityRequirements WHERE BuildingType =

'BUILDING_BATH';

------------------------------
-- Building_YieldModifiers
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_YieldModifiers
(BuildingType, YieldType, Yield)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', YieldType, Yield
FROM Building_YieldModifiers WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_BATH';

------------------------------
-- Building_ResourceYieldChanges
------------------------------
INSERT INTO Building_ResourceYieldChanges
(BuildingType, ResourceType, YieldType, Yield)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', ResourceType, YieldType, Yield
FROM Building_ResourceYieldChanges WHERE BuildingType =

'BUILDING_BATH';

INSERT INTO Building_BuildingClassLocalYieldChanges
(BuildingType, ResourceType, YieldType, Yield)
('BUILDING_BATH', 'BUILDINGCLASS_AMPHITHEATER', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_BATH', 'BUILDINGCLASS_TEMPLE', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_BATH', 'BUILDINGCLASS_GARDEN', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
('BUILDING_BATH', 'BUILDINGCLASS_AMPHITHEATER', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 3),
('BUILDING_BATH', 'BUILDINGCLASS_TEMPLE', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 3),
('BUILDING_BATH', 'BUILDINGCLASS_GARDEN', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 3);

INSERT INTO Building_GoldenAgeYieldMod
(BuildingType, YieldType, Yield)
SELECT 'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN', ResourceType, YieldType, Yield)
FROM Building_ResourceYieldChanges WHERE BuildingType =

'BUILDING_BATH';
--------------------------------
-- Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides
--------------------------------
INSERT INTO Civilization_BuildingClassOverrides
(CivilizationType,

BuildingClassType, BuildingType)
VALUES ('CIVILIZATION_ROME', 'BUILDINGCLASS_BATH',

'BUILDING_3ROMEGARDEN');


so far I'm editing the base 3rd and 4th uniques so that I can play ygaemp sometime with it being fair for European... So far swapped out persia for boosted medes. Updated china by using Xia with 3 settlers Harrappa with 3 settlers replaced Spain and portugal with Iberia and france with gaul... should be a really cool game when I get it up and running.