3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
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FoxOfWar
Prince
I did not even remember that missions generate extra faith from it, 'cause it's not visible in the improvement itself (or the mission)... but I am generating probably more faith than I should, here. 50 cities, and yet I am almost done getting four different religion-bought buildings (Mission, Monastery, Mandir, Synagogue) for each of them due to completely insane faith output.
pineappledan
Deity
I think we should do 1 of two things re. the faith:
With those changes in place: In relation to chateaus, haciendas provide
Seir Morb works better as a Field Gun replacement (the gun is from 1865). I've updated the numbers to reflect a field gun replacement (CP, RCP, pro cost, range) in the spreadsheets
- Modify missions so that they add faith to haciendas. That way the faith appears on the UI, and is more visible to the player.
- Remove the faith entirely? The faith sounds like it’s a little too good, but doesn’t feel good. Removing it will also help keep kuna and mono churches more unique
With those changes in place: In relation to chateaus, haciendas provide
- 1 less gold if only adjacent to a city
- 2 less production and 1 more gold if only adjacent to a single luxury
- maybe faith, depending on what we do with it.
- no defensive bonus
- more possible placements, since city adjacency is allowed
Seir Morb works better as a Field Gun replacement (the gun is from 1865). I've updated the numbers to reflect a field gun replacement (CP, RCP, pro cost, range) in the spreadsheets
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FoxOfWar
Prince
Sounds like a plan on both accounts, to me. I have been rather cheesing this current game, at any rate, since hitting Civil Service...
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@pineappledan here. I typed "indian council" in google.
pineappledan
Deity
Okay. that council building is from Georgia, so it's either Guale or Cusabo, not Iroquois. Are people cool with that? Here's the picture in question again.
A sachem's council would have likely met in a longhouse or outdoors, since the Iroquois nations were semi-nomadic; they didn't have designated government buildings.
Spoiler :
A sachem's council would have likely met in a longhouse or outdoors, since the Iroquois nations were semi-nomadic; they didn't have designated government buildings.
I put first version of Baan Chang into the game and it seems to have few problems:
1. It is too bright and there are no visible black contours like in other icons,
2. Background colors are to similar to each other and look like one.
I will test second version but it will probably have the same problems.
I added mission bonus for Haciena (+1f) but it is not visible (same situation like Fale Tel'e and fishing boats).
For game purpose Sachem's Council's picture should be good. But you can always find better one
. Maybe we could find other longhouse building from some other perspective and color and make it for Sachem's Council?
1. It is too bright and there are no visible black contours like in other icons,
2. Background colors are to similar to each other and look like one.
I will test second version but it will probably have the same problems.
I added mission bonus for Haciena (+1f) but it is not visible (same situation like Fale Tel'e and fishing boats).
For game purpose Sachem's Council's picture should be good. But you can always find better one
. Maybe we could find other longhouse building from some other perspective and color and make it for Sachem's Council?
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pineappledan
Deity
how about this? I lightened up the building and put it through a filter to make it more "painterly"
My reservation is cultural sensitivity. By using this icon, are we saying "all these redskins look the same to me, and their cultures do too"?
regarding the ban chang, the contrast is best in the third version. I would skip the second version entirely, since the elephants are too small in it
Spoiler :
My reservation is cultural sensitivity. By using this icon, are we saying "all these redskins look the same to me, and their cultures do too"?
regarding the ban chang, the contrast is best in the third version. I would skip the second version entirely, since the elephants are too small in it
Yeah I posted third version. Background is slightly better but still those 2 colors need to be diversified. Elephants on the 64px are visible but I know these are elephants. Someone may not know that and it is not obvious. We should depict 2 elephants but slightly bigger. And if you use gimp there's some option (Filters --> Artistic --> Cartoon or whatever it is translated in english).
I can try this. Post dds file for SC please.
We did the same for India (borrowed archer from Israel), Kampung (from Malaysia) or Bastu (from Finland). Of course if you have some moral dilemma we don't make you do this. Maybe you missed that, but I suggested making another Longhouse Icon but from different perspective for SC.
I can try this. Post dds file for SC please.
We did the same for India (borrowed archer from Israel), Kampung (from Malaysia) or Bastu (from Finland). Of course if you have some moral dilemma we don't make you do this. Maybe you missed that, but I suggested making another Longhouse Icon but from different perspective for SC.
pineappledan
Deity
What if I added an airbrush to give a fadeout like is in some of the existing civ icons? here's versions with the additional fade out for BC and SC. I think this should do it; managed to fade out the third, back elephant, and you get enough contrast to pick out the main elephant even at 32x32
example:
EDIT: fixed up the sachems icon
example:
Spoiler :
EDIT: fixed up the sachems icon
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I will try it tomorrow. For now I managed to do all things in Baan Chang but I had unexpected problem with ability when you get gifted unit from CS. It turns out that there's no event whichc reacts on that. So I made just normal unit creation (do not mistake it with training in the city) and excluded all non-military units and foreign french legion from that. I t should work only for CS gifts then, but it will need firther checks. Maybe you have suggestion for other similar situation that also should be excluded?
pineappledan
Deity
So it triggers when free units "appear"?
Free units from decisions & events mod, possibly? Maybe partisans? Not sure. Edge cases at best though.
Free units from decisions & events mod, possibly? Maybe partisans? Not sure. Edge cases at best though.
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Exactly. That's what I invented for today. Maybe I will find better solution. But without proper event I doubt it. And I don;t know if I understand it correctly: it counts for all Baan Changs in your cities, then multiply it by era and 10 factor and adds one time bonus in your capital. Is that correct?
pineappledan
Deity
Yeah so since you can't have baan chang before the medieval it would be 10xGetCurrent era (The tooltip for the building says 20 culture, scaling, but medieval is already (CurrentEra=2)x10, so 20)
That would trigger in every city with a ban chang built, so 20 culture in the city with the ban chang.
alternatively it could give 1 trigger, multiplied by the number of ban changs on empire, and give that yield to the capital, but that sounds like it's more complex. Also, I'm not aware if triggered tields like this contribute to border growth. If they don't then it won't affect the game, no matter what you do. If culture from events counts towards city borders, then it is important that the event triggers in each city with a ban chang individually, so they those cities get the border growth benefit, and it's not concentrated into a single massive border blob on the capital.
I'm delighted to hear the yields from CS strategics is giving less grief than the yields from gifted units. lol
That would trigger in every city with a ban chang built, so 20 culture in the city with the ban chang.
alternatively it could give 1 trigger, multiplied by the number of ban changs on empire, and give that yield to the capital, but that sounds like it's more complex. Also, I'm not aware if triggered tields like this contribute to border growth. If they don't then it won't affect the game, no matter what you do. If culture from events counts towards city borders, then it is important that the event triggers in each city with a ban chang individually, so they those cities get the border growth benefit, and it's not concentrated into a single massive border blob on the capital.
I'm delighted to hear the yields from CS strategics is giving less grief than the yields from gifted units. lol
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FoxOfWar
Prince
Finished the Spain game. Won cultural victory soon as I got ideology, because super-wide sacred sites combined with the insane faith generation of Haciendas (dozens of them) is kind of nuts, especially as Haciendas also give a very strong food/production boost if built quickly for a new city(that with Spain already essentially start with 3 pop thanks to the UA). I was at least an era ahead of everyone else even intentionally avoiding science buildings and 40+ pop capital, and generating like couple thousand faith/turn by Renaissance. I don't think Spain needs any more faith, anyway.
So in a nutshell, Haciendas need a gentle touch of the nerfhammer. I would rather it remains an UI that can be used on otherwise near-worthless tiles (desert, tundra, snow), but it probably is just fine without any faith generation at all. Or if anything, have Missions generate +1 faith to Haciendas worked by the city as suggested. Or just Hacienda gaining +2 faith in Acoustics.
Gonna start another right away, feeling like Tradition/Statecraft start into Imperialism late game warfare and wide puppet empire, to give some of those Ren+ unique units a spin.
Decided on Brazil. See if I can't reach that slightly elusive Autocracy culture victory with Pracinhas.
So in a nutshell, Haciendas need a gentle touch of the nerfhammer. I would rather it remains an UI that can be used on otherwise near-worthless tiles (desert, tundra, snow), but it probably is just fine without any faith generation at all. Or if anything, have Missions generate +1 faith to Haciendas worked by the city as suggested. Or just Hacienda gaining +2 faith in Acoustics.
Gonna start another right away, feeling like Tradition/Statecraft start into Imperialism late game warfare and wide puppet empire, to give some of those Ren+ unique units a spin.
Decided on Brazil. See if I can't reach that slightly elusive Autocracy culture victory with Pracinhas.
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pineappledan
Deity
Sounds like Iroquois have been running away as AI on some people's playthroughs. Iroquois has always been better in AI hands than human ones, since their UB and flavours are very straightforward an exploitable for the AI. Curious to know what humans think about them?
For now I will leave it as it is so Baan Chang will gather all yields from unit creation and add it to capital. It is not so complicated as it sounds. Actually it gives now
((CurrentEra + 1) / 3) x 10 x NumberOfBaanChangs
so in medieval it gives 10 for every BC. Increase the base value or leave it as it is?
I've already nerfed Hacienda: moved faith bonus to Mission, but in fact number will be the same as before, so I think I will just add flat faith instead. I also deleted gold from adjacency (it was coded +2g instead of +1 - oops!). Now is only +2p for adjacency to the city. That will be serious nerf.
Do you have in mind some nerf for Iroquois? It's a pity that nobody played Iroquois since the beginning of the game. It was second programmed civ.
I'm curious how they do with new diplomatic flavor and bonuses from Great Diplomats.
((CurrentEra + 1) / 3) x 10 x NumberOfBaanChangs
so in medieval it gives 10 for every BC. Increase the base value or leave it as it is?
I've already nerfed Hacienda: moved faith bonus to Mission, but in fact number will be the same as before, so I think I will just add flat faith instead. I also deleted gold from adjacency (it was coded +2g instead of +1 - oops!). Now is only +2p for adjacency to the city. That will be serious nerf.
Do you have in mind some nerf for Iroquois? It's a pity that nobody played Iroquois since the beginning of the game. It was second programmed civ.
I'm curious how they do with new diplomatic flavor and bonuses from Great Diplomats.
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pineappledan
Deity
No, I have no proposed nerfs yet. I suspect that the great performance of the AI with the civ is just the same overperforming we have seen from Iroquois AIs since forever. It's never been an overpowered civ, but production-focused civs and flat yields civs benefit more from the buffs the AI gets, so it's always presented as "artificially overpowered".
pineappledan
Deity
BazaarJack hasn't checked in in a long time, and I suspect he has peter'd out. He was never too forthcoming with his ideas for any civ except Germany and a bit of Morocco, so I've taken the liberty of making complete proposals for Portugal, Japan, Morocco, and Germany on the 4UC spreadsheet. I will post them here as well. I have mostly stayed true to his ideas re the teutonic order and the barbary corsair
As always, parts that are different from base building/unit in bold. 2 UUs have been proposed for Japan and Portugal, obviously only 1 can be the final
Portugal
I really liked the Jaegar idea, and since people have turned against it as a UU for Germany I essentially transplanted the Jaegar's traits onto the Cacadores, which are essentially Portugal's answer to the Jaegar.
Without much of a military record, the Vasco da Gama is kinda... well I'm softening on the idea of just going back to Cacadores. On the whole I'm ambivalent as to which gets chosen. They are both just peachy, and even are unlocked at the same tech.
@Hinin, I liked your idea for the university. I made it give a free university as well, seemed fitting. I didn't feel the bonuses to settling were a good idea; they come too late, and Portugal isn't an expansionist civ in the game, so I created the proposed Feitoria buff, which I feel better reflects Portugal's early imperial model. No sense in being at odds with the other UCs.
Japan
Given my recent research, I'm even more disposed towards the Yamato than before. The Mikasa wasn't even built by the Japanese, it was bought from a shipyard in England. Only 1 was ever built and it sunk itself in peacetime due to an accidental fire in the magazine... lame.
Morocco
Is the corsair "piratey" enough without prize ships and coastal raider? I tried to give it a different flavor than the Sea Beggar, which uses all those promotions already
I'm not a huge fan of the Riad as I have it written, but I like the idea of GPPs on completion of trade routes; feels different enough from Ottoman's UA thanks to that.
Germany
As always, please discuss and recommend changes you think are needed.
Speaking of ottoman’s UA, is the number of turns a trade route takes hard-coded? I was just thinking that another possible thing for the tersane would be to make trade routes take 2/3 as long to complete. You could switch them around and be more flexible, and Tanzimat would trigger more often. Probably not possible though.
Re: cultural sensitivity, @adan_eslavo, Bastu are Swedish, so no problem there. Kampungs are Sama-Bajau, an ethnic group which transcends SE Asian national borders. Regarding the Ethiopian/Indian archer, Indian people are so diverse as to make the label meaningless, and many Ethiopians are dead-ringers for southern Indian/Sri lankan, so I have no issues with that one, as long as we say it’s an Indian in the civilopedia
I can rationalize those ones, I know little enough about Iroquoian architecture that it gives me pause to use another tribe’s structure, even if it is another east-coast tribe
As always, parts that are different from base building/unit in bold. 2 UUs have been proposed for Japan and Portugal, obviously only 1 can be the final
Portugal
Spoiler :
CP, 55 RCP (up from 34/50)
Range
Movement
happiness on empire. Maximum of 30%, or 15 happiness)
Science +5 
Culture (up from 3Sci/3Cul)
Science needed modifier (up from 20%)
Gold from universities
Production in city for every Feitoria built in foreign land
Great Work of Writing slots (+3 I really liked the Jaegar idea, and since people have turned against it as a UU for Germany I essentially transplanted the Jaegar's traits onto the Cacadores, which are essentially Portugal's answer to the Jaegar.
Without much of a military record, the Vasco da Gama is kinda... well I'm softening on the idea of just going back to Cacadores. On the whole I'm ambivalent as to which gets chosen. They are both just peachy, and even are unlocked at the same tech.
@Hinin, I liked your idea for the university. I made it give a free university as well, seemed fitting. I didn't feel the bonuses to settling were a good idea; they come too late, and Portugal isn't an expansionist civ in the game, so I created the proposed Feitoria buff, which I feel better reflects Portugal's early imperial model. No sense in being at odds with the other UCs.
Japan
Spoiler :
GAP points for sinking a Yamato-Class
GMusician rate in city (up from 33%)Given my recent research, I'm even more disposed towards the Yamato than before. The Mikasa wasn't even built by the Japanese, it was bought from a shipyard in England. Only 1 was ever built and it sunk itself in peacetime due to an accidental fire in the magazine... lame.
Morocco
Spoiler :
trade route originating in this city is completed, scaling with era (50xGetCurrentEra)
Food & +1 Is the corsair "piratey" enough without prize ships and coastal raider? I tried to give it a different flavor than the Sea Beggar, which uses all those promotions already
I'm not a huge fan of the Riad as I have it written, but I like the idea of GPPs on completion of trade routes; feels different enough from Ottoman's UA thanks to that.
Germany
Spoiler :
Influence with CS when gifted to a city-state)
Faith, +10 As always, please discuss and recommend changes you think are needed.
Speaking of ottoman’s UA, is the number of turns a trade route takes hard-coded? I was just thinking that another possible thing for the tersane would be to make trade routes take 2/3 as long to complete. You could switch them around and be more flexible, and Tanzimat would trigger more often. Probably not possible though.
Re: cultural sensitivity, @adan_eslavo, Bastu are Swedish, so no problem there. Kampungs are Sama-Bajau, an ethnic group which transcends SE Asian national borders. Regarding the Ethiopian/Indian archer, Indian people are so diverse as to make the label meaningless, and many Ethiopians are dead-ringers for southern Indian/Sri lankan, so I have no issues with that one, as long as we say it’s an Indian in the civilopedia
I can rationalize those ones, I know little enough about Iroquoian architecture that it gives me pause to use another tribe’s structure, even if it is another east-coast tribe
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It's early morning and I don't have clear mind to rethink all your proposals for now because my head would explode. 
I have some suggestions:
1. You wrote Yamato-class but it is battleship replacement. Why not make it in Bombard style: max 2 units with its own class that are more powerful than battleship. Player wouldn't suffer of lack of normal battleship.
2. I would vote for cacadores. Im just curious how this range scout hybrid will work. If it lames then we always have VdG.
3. Age of Discovery and feitoria-from bonus will be nice challenge.
4. I shouldn't tell that as a Polish but Teutonic Order is awesome.
5. Slaganz focused on barbarians. What if barbarians are off or you spawn in safe territory where aro no barbarians? We should give them also some other universal buff. Lowered production and 1 cp would be enough? Remember they are quickly substituted by spearman.
6. This 100g and 100gmp - uff you like making lua challenges, don't you?
I will look into ottomans maybe I can force end it by lua. But I wouldn't be to optimistic.
I have some suggestions:
1. You wrote Yamato-class but it is battleship replacement. Why not make it in Bombard style: max 2 units with its own class that are more powerful than battleship. Player wouldn't suffer of lack of normal battleship.
2. I would vote for cacadores. Im just curious how this range scout hybrid will work. If it lames then we always have VdG.
3. Age of Discovery and feitoria-from bonus will be nice challenge.
4. I shouldn't tell that as a Polish but Teutonic Order is awesome.
5. Slaganz focused on barbarians. What if barbarians are off or you spawn in safe territory where aro no barbarians? We should give them also some other universal buff. Lowered production and 1 cp would be enough? Remember they are quickly substituted by spearman.
6. This 100g and 100gmp - uff you like making lua challenges, don't you?
I will look into ottomans maybe I can force end it by lua. But I wouldn't be to optimistic.
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