3XXX BC, found an empty capital. Raze it?

[popejubal]

As long as the borders have popped once you can capture it and keep it.

Thanks very much for this tip. I had no idea that a border pop kept a city on the map after it was captured. I thought it only stuck around after it grew to size 2 at least once.

Looks like I'll be a lot more agressive about going after my creative neighbors.

 

[Morgrad]

So did you take it?!?!?

sorry.... I'm curious. =)

 

[Spiceweasel]

In my current game I ran into an undefended Tokyo in the first turns. If it had been Lincoln, or Gandhi, I might have left it alone. But there was no way I was going to spend 6000 years a stone's throw away from Tokugawa.

 

[KMadCandy]

i have read that border pop thing over and over and it is just not true, test it in WB guys. the city has to have reached pop 2 at least once to stay. it can then be whipped back to 1 and there's no issue. but if the population never grew, even if they've great artist bombed it 17 times for culture, it will auto-raze. even in BtS, i just tested it now, and i've tested it in other versions before when it's come up.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

It really depends on who it is. Some AI I will kill on principle like that. Other times I will do it to open up expansion room. Then again, sometimes I feel like a jerk and take them out cheap and easy too.

 

[RJM]

i have read that border pop thing over and over and it is just not true, test it in WB guys. the city has to have reached pop 2 at least once to stay. it can then be whipped back to 1 and there's no issue. but if the population never grew, even if they've great artist bombed it 17 times for culture, it will auto-raze. even in BtS, i just tested it now, and i've tested it in other versions before when it's come up.

I also tested this idea in my current Warlords game and I can confirm kMadCandy's conclusion. Even if the border has expanded, a size 1 city can not be captured without being razed.

RJM

 

[Diamondeye]

@KMadCandy:
You're sure about this? The MP game I spoke of was only like 8 turns after the game begun, and the city belonged to the greeks - it was size1 with one culture pop, and yet I got to keep it... This is in Vanilla 1,74...

 

[KMadCandy]

i'm sure i tested it in BtS today, and in warlords previously. i haven't tested it in every version after the patches, so it might have been patched in vanilla i suppose. but in BtS tonight, this was a test with creative cathy, and she had another city, it was size one, had culture popped (due to the palace), but it autorazed, gave me no option.

my test was SP if that makes any difference, but i don't see why it would. unless it was quick speed, the greeks were a smart human, had BW already and had already grown to pop 2 or higher and then whipped back down to 1 pop in your game already??? then that would follow the rule. the computer doesn't do that in the first 8 turns in SP *giggle*. not even on deity that i've seen.

and there's a "cities never auto-raze" option or something like that" that might have been checked. but i think that's mostly used in SP, by folks wanting domination and not wanting to wait for cities to grow to size 1 in the first place, which is the reason the whole thing came up

 

[Percy]

KMadCandy, could you please test it with a capital? Maybe it changes something. Maybe it's not "culture pop" but "culture buildings amassing enough culture" or something like that.

 

[Diamondeye]

@Percy: agree - try it out, KMad.

@KMadCandy: What would they have whipped? Their city was defended by a scout, which they had started with... I am pretty sure it was before BW, anyhow... I dont think I saw a message about them changing into slavery.

 

[Thomas G.]

He said, its in a nice location, AND not that far away that upkeep would kill him. What more could you ask for in a city? Why raze it and then build a settler, and then walk the settler over there and found a new one? I fail totally to see why to raze it? Unless there are multiple enemies nearby who could take it back, I spose.

 

[KMadCandy]

KMadCandy, could you please test it with a capital? Maybe it changes something. Maybe it's not "culture pop" but "culture buildings amassing enough culture" or something like that.

my test was a capital. i started a game, cathy made her capital, i made mine and a 2nd city. i raised the population of my 2nd city to 2 people, but did not give it a culture pop. i started a war, and had her capture my 2nd city (by placing her unit on it in WB), and she didn't raze it. that was so that my later capturing her capital as her only city wouldn't end the game and weird out the results.

i then waited until her capital got the culture pop. my modern armor (courtesy WB) crossed the border and won the fight (what a surprise) in her never-had-been-above-pop-1 capital. it was auto-razed. my capital was still standing, so that the game wasn't over to weird out the results.

i've tried it before too, because the question has come up often. nobody ever believes me. well okay, some people do *giggle*. play with it yourself, if i'm wrong i want to find out, since i certainly don't want to mislead people. my goal is to make sure that the wrong information doesn't get passed around, not to be stubborn! i'm always willing to learn . my testing methods aren't exactly Super Scientific after all, and i don't know how to read the code at all, i'm going from the tests.

 

[Percy]

Thanks for the testing KMadCandy. It's not that i don't believe you, it's that i tend to try and link conflicting info into a big theory. But as it stands, you seem to be right and so the other conflicting info is wrong =P

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

A screenshot showing the capital will help.

Notice that I said "capital" and not "city". How can you not keep a capital 3xxxBC? More to the point: how far could your warrior have moved by 3xxxBC such that maintenance costs will become unbearable?

But also notice that I've been asking questions, not giving answers. More to the point: your palace has 8 commerce. Some very serious questions:

- How much commerce would you gain by taking that capital
- How much maintenance costs would you incur
- With the new (temporarily lowered) level of research, when would you reach pottery?
- How would you keep the two cities from barbs (not too much of a problem in Noble though)
- how would you connect the two cities together without barbs pillaging the roads

If you could handle these issues satisfactorily, yes, keep it. Otherwise, raze it.

 

[sourboy]

Maybe it's different in Civ4, but previously, rule of thumb was take it. If you are going to destroy a Civ, better to do it before they make contact elsewhere, so no one knows you did it. I dunno if this still applies today, but even if it doesn't, you're expanding your borders early... as their "lands to be" are now free for your disposal, not to mention their capital is a prime 2nd city (former capital!).

No brainer... take it! (unless it's England, then burn it!)

 

[Percy]

*sigh*
It seems some people don't read the whole thread, nor even the first post, before contributing.

People, the question has NEVER been to keep or raze, it has been "attack now, so auto-raze" or "wait for it to grow so it doesn't auto-raze and take the risks of it becoming defended".

 

[sourboy]

.. attack now... no question. "The moment to hesitate is through."

 

[Cer]

take the city, leave your warrior there, send a settler soon.

(or if it doesn't autoraze, you'd keep it but from what people said in this thread it seems it will autoraze.)