5 Lowest Priority Early Wonders

[Txurce]

• Stonehenge
• Great Lighthouse
• Great Merchants
• Colossus

What these have in common is they give 1000s of gold in the very early game. I've been adding more and more gold, yet they're still rated poorly. Great Scientists only give ~300 from lightbulbing, yet are considered more important. In previous versions of civilization 1 gold equaled 1 science, and it seems detaching gold from science in Civ 5 broke the balance somehow. I'm not sure how to fix this... anyone have ideas?

I agree with GamerKG as to why Stonehenge isn't appealing in most situations (compared to alternatives, naturally) and with Ahriman as to a fix not being needed to make gold as valuable as beakers. In fact I suspect GM's and the gold-producing Wonders may be OP as compared to the science producers. That people aren't biting probably has much more to do with the quirks of human nature.

 

[Seek]

Out of curiosity: Have any of you guys actually *built* Stonehenge? I thought it lackluster when Thal made the change ... and then I tried building it, and it easily proved itself one of the best early wonders. Switching between food and production focus makes incredible changes with 20+ tiles to choose from. And let's not forget, it won't be long until those luxury and strategic resources in the fourth and fifth rings will become available!

Sorry to quote myself, but I posted late last night and forgot to describe the benefits to each playstyle:
For the small empire: The sight range from Stonehenge gives excellent line of sight when being attacked, giving one full knowledge of the opponent's unit composition and plenty of time to set up units in the best positions.
For the expansionist: Settling cities nearby gets >1/2 the bonus from Stonehenge that the capital gets and will almost always have better tiles (some of which might already be improved!) for the new city to work, leading to faster growth and decent production right off the bat.

 

[Txurce]

Sorry to quote myself, but I posted late last night and forgot to describe the benefits to each playstyle:
For the small empire: The sight range from Stonehenge gives excellent line of sight when being attacked, giving one full knowledge of the opponent's unit composition and plenty of time to set up units in the best positions.
For the expansionist: Settling cities nearby gets >1/2 the bonus from Stonehenge that the capital gets and will almost always have better tiles (some of which might already be improved!) for the new city to work, leading to faster growth and decent production right off the bat.

These are all good points, but not enough to tempt me at this moment over other policies. If you compare my reasoning to the universal tendency toward procrastination, it could be said that the rewards are unfocused and down the road. That is probably all most players need to put their immediate efforts elsewhere.

 

[Thalassicus]

I've added a 25% cost reduction to Stonehenge for the final pre-GotM version. I'll leave it here for a while to give everyone a chance to test it out thoroughly. This makes the border expansion itself cost only 50, the same net cost as a workboat or warrior. Since Tradition empires get a free temple through policies, it keeps Stonehenge in the domain of liberty/honor empires, and much more affordable than before.


Temple
120

Stonehenge
170 (was 220)
+3 border radius
+1
+1 Great Engineer rate
Free Temple

 

[Txurce]

I started laughing when I realized you're offering Stonehenge at an unbeatably low introductory price. It may be too low, in that it makes sense to me now even going tall. On the other hand, there's nothing inherently wrong with "too low" making it more top-tier. It only raises the question of whether it needs a different sort of boost (or whether it's okay for it to be a weak sister Wonder).

In deciding which Wonders should be top-notch, it's worth considering whether the AI can also make use of them (for example, the way it makes use of the Great Wall).

 

[Thalassicus]

I did turn into a car salesman. Welcome to our certified pre-owned wonders dealership! Act now for 25% off AND we'll throw in a Temple for FREE, a limited time offer! But wait, there's more!

There's always opportunity costs - spending time on one wonder means we're not building something else. Even if all wonders were incredibly desirable we still have to pick which to go for.

 

[Sneaks]

Stonehenge now with Temple is the only way I would ever build it. Frankly, I found the change from flat culture to border expansion a horizontal move, and frankly it just does not ever weigh in against far far far better wonders like the GL (which I can never get) Oracle, or to some level Pyramids.

That being said, on Deity, it is nigh impossible to get any wonder at all pre-Medieval, and is pretty much not worth racing to unless you end up with a sexy Stone/Marble start. In most cases I still won't really try and compete early, and instead spend production turns on far more important issues like early Military. The real wonder races begin with Notre Dame/Angkor Wat as Hagia Sophia tends to be relatively risk free.

Back to problems I have with some early Wonders:
The Stonehenge border expansion is interesting, but its receiving mostly tiles that you just cannot work yet, and by the time you manage to improve them, you would have naturally expanded there anyway.

Mausoleum: The only time I get GPs early enough for the gold bonuses to be big enough to really matter are with Babylon (in which case veering to Masonry before Writing was a terrible idea anyway) or if by miracle I won the Lighthouse AFTER building the Mausoleum.

Chicken Pizza: I pretty much never have more than 2 happy GAs in most games so its pretty much useless to me, as I don't start blowing GP GAs until Modern.

Zeus: I never have won the race for this on Deity, and never found not having it hindering my capacity to easily trample AI cities.

Lighthouse: The GM addition is a nice change, but coastal makes it a rarity, and the longterm benefits of extra movement/sight in water are pretty much zilch.

HG: Less valuable to me with the food nerf, but still a solid wonder

Artemis: Goes extremely early on Deity, so its a nonwonder even in PERFECT settings. Seriously, I lost this on a 3 stone start where I got a free Mining tech as Washington.

GL: It goes too early to matter as well, and rarely worth rushing for unless it is a guarantee, as it would be the hammers I would be spending on a Library

Oracle: I love love love this wonder, and I usually compete for it in solid production starts when I feel culture victories are in the cards. What many people do not understand is that the value of the wonder in a CV scenario is not the culture cost of policies at the time you build it, but the culture cost of the very last policy you would adopt before building the Utopia Project

Great Wall: Went for it only once as Washington, and lost. I just never feel the value in grabbing military wonders. The lone exception tends to be Himeji, but there are far more valuable options at that point in the tree.

Colossus: Coastal and usually far too dirt dependent for me to usually bother with.

Pyramids: The wonder is pretty great when stacked with Liberty for explosive REX early. Its situational, but solid in that particular situation

 

[Ahriman]

I agree with most of these, excepting:
a) I don't have the extra wonders DLC, so those are always missing from my game
b) I don't think Deity (where you can't get the wonders even if you tried) is the best place to think about these issues. A wonder you can never get is partly because the AI values it really high.
c) I find Pyramids most useful with a Tall game, not a Liberty game. Liberty already gives me lots of rapid expansion, Pyramids fit nicely with Tall for me, because it gives me a boost that I wouldn't otherwise get, and lets me rush a wonder while not having to delay a second city.
d) I just don't like the effect of Stonehenge, I don't find it logical or interesting. [In fact, I think many of the wonders have lost any sense of historic flavor.]
I think the current version is far too cost-effective as well.
e) The fact that coastal wonders are situational doesn't mean that they need to be adjusted. Situational also means easier to get, since most AIs don't have coastal starts.
f) The Great Wall with its delay to Dynamite is very annoying to fight against, particularly because obsolesence depends on the owner getting the tech, not the opponent. So I can have Dynamite but it doesn't help me, and many of the AIs (particularly builder ones) will delay Dynamite for a very long time, pushing up for Light Infantry and Fighters long before they grab dynamite.
My latest game I was fighting against Inca in hills with their great wall. Tough going.

So, this doesn't need a boost, I think it is fine that some wonders are more valuable for the AI than for the player.
g) I find the Great library to give far too much of a tech boost, particularly in the early game. I think the benefits of this need to be cut back; less tech, fewer GPPs.
h) The Oracle is solid. Good, but not OP.
i) Chichen Itza, I think is ok. The bonus is quite sizeable. It doesn't have to give a short-term boost to be worth building. This is quite difficulty dependent though, since you'll have more golden ages on lower difficulty. And it is pretty useless for wide/conquest empires, which won't have much excess happy. I'll tend to dump any great artists I get (eg from city states) into golden ages too, before modern.

I worry that in the latest version, some of the wonders are just too cheap.

 

[Seek]

I worry that in the latest version, some of the wonders are just too cheap.

I believe Thal is simply offering a short-term discount so that some might build WWs they otherwise wouldn't have. I fully expect the cheap wonders in 108 to be repealed. Overall, I agree with pretty much all of your points (though Stonehenge can be quite powerful in some starts).

Anyway, some ideas for Angkor Wat, since it's not scoring that well:

• Percentage science per turn from allied CS (would stack with Patronage policy)
• Percentage bonus for yields from CS (a la Siam's bonus)
• Small minimum Influence level (again, stacks with Patronage policy)
• Other players lose influence quicker (replace Patronage finisher with something else)
• Or some combination thereof/in addition to the current bonus.

While I admit none of these are all that creative, I think any of these would remove the temporality of AW's current bonus (which I'm not crazy about - nearly all other wonders are worth conquering) and could make it worth contending for.

 

[Txurce]

IAnyway, some ideas for Angkor Wat, since it's not scoring that well:

• Percentage science per turn from allied CS (would stack with Patronage policy)
• Percentage bonus for yields from CS (a la Siam's bonus)
• Small minimum Influence level (again, stacks with Patronage policy)
• Other players lose influence quicker (replace Patronage finisher with something else)
• Or some combination thereof/in addition to the current bonus.

While I admit none of these are all that creative, I think any of these would remove the temporality of AW's current bonus (which I'm not crazy about - nearly all other wonders are worth conquering) and could make it worth contending for.

I like the first three.

 

[Atlas627]

I believe Thal is simply offering a short-term discount so that some might build WWs they otherwise wouldn't have. I fully expect the cheap wonders in 108 to be repealed. Overall, I agree with pretty much all of your points (though Stonehenge can be quite powerful in some starts).

Anyway, some ideas for Angkor Wat, since it's not scoring that well:

• Percentage science per turn from allied CS (would stack with Patronage policy)
• Percentage bonus for yields from CS (a la Siam's bonus)
• Small minimum Influence level (again, stacks with Patronage policy)
• Other players lose influence quicker (replace Patronage finisher with something else)
• Or some combination thereof/in addition to the current bonus.

While I admit none of these are all that creative, I think any of these would remove the temporality of AW's current bonus (which I'm not crazy about - nearly all other wonders are worth conquering) and could make it worth contending for.

There are definitely wonders not worth conquering. How about the Pyramids? Is 25% worker speed worth it? Maybe. Or the Oracle? You only get the culture/turn. Or the Sydney Opera House? No free policies, just +50% culture in that city. Which you just conquered.

Great Wall is useless after you have Dynamite (though that is an odd exception to the rule)

United Nations sure as hell doesn't help you. Also I just won a game on Emperor I should definitely have lost because the AI was stupid and built the UN for me, and then didn't bribe any of the CS...