5 Most Fun & Addictive Leaders - Summer Edition

[Sneaks]

I have a bit of a flavor gripe with the Jelling Stones. The stones are a total of 2 stones, thus have more of a wonder concept.

I would personally prefer the Jelling Stones be a Heroic Epic replacement, that adds 1/turn per city conquered.

 

[Thalassicus]

The HE replacement is a good idea. I think a distributed approach would work better though, since it's usually the outer cities that need more border expansion than the core ones. Hmm... each one has advantages and disadvantages.

• Single-city NW is realistic, but not good for gameplay.
• Multi-city NW is realistic and good for gameplay, but basically like a trait.
• Monument UB works best for gameplay, but is not realistic.

 

[Txurce]

There are several things in favor of the concept:

• Early game
• Unique effect
• Realistic for leader
• Useful for any map
• Easy to implement

These are some of the criteria I use to prioritize leader ideas, and the Jelling Stone concept is off the charts in every category!

Promotions going from one UU to another is done with the Musketeer's foreign lands promotion persisting to Foreign Legion. Emdaer said the Danes don't fit historically... he didn't say they're boring or overpowered. Watch for unintended strawmen.

Thanks for the link to straw men, although I already understood the concept. I didn't say Emdaer believed they were boring or underpowered - just that I have doubts "people" do. I believe those are your criteria for revising traits. Whether you think either applies here is of course totally up to you.

 

[Tids]

Is it possible to implement a unique promotion for only one unit at a time? (as in no other unit can be promoted with this if another already exists with it)

Could lead to leader who has this available, which would be interesting, as a not so big buff. Or hero units

 

[Emdaer]

If a more common UB is wanted, a rune-stone could also do the job for that. The runestones were typically raised as a memorial for a great warrior or leader. Although runestones were raised in most of scandinavia, the Jelling stones were actually the first. Therefore i feel it's a rather unique feature for the danish civilization.

 

[Thalassicus]

@Txurce
I recognized that. I'm just expanding on some of the other things I look for. I haven't written them down before, so I might be missing a few things, but here's details:

• Excitement
  Games are intended to be fun.
  .
• Uniqueness
  Can we play the leader in a fundamentally different way?
  .
• Realism
  Does it fit the leader and civilization historically?
  .
• Time
  Early effects are more enjoyable than late ones, since we can use them more.
  .
• Persistence
  Bonuses like strength and movement speed are short term, while promotions that persist when upgraded are long term. Buildings are also long term.
  .
• Generality
  When a leader is better than everyone on a particular map script, and not good on other maps, it's not really a choice at all.
  .
• Ease of implementation
  Most things fall into very distinct categories of hours to complete (writing new code) or minutes to complete (changing a few numbers).

The polls help me figure out what makes the game exciting (#3). It's a nebulous concept and depends on perspectives. This is why I try and get as many viewpoints as possible, and ask about favorite leaders, not boring leaders. I figure out what concepts are most exciting - then take those ideas and use them elsewhere in the game.

For example, in earlier polls France and the Aztecs were rated really high. So I asked myself, what sets them apart from the others? They gets lots of early policies! So I realized many people (like myself) enjoy getting more early policies, and used that knowledge to shift some policy generation from late to early game. This shift had many reasons, but the excitement factor was one of them, and I figured that out partially from these polls.

 

[Sneaks]

The HE replacement is a good idea. I think a distributed approach would work better though, since it's usually the outer cities that need more border expansion than the core ones. Hmm... each one has advantages and disadvantages.

• Single-city NW is realistic, but not good for gameplay.
• Multi-city NW is realistic and good for gameplay, but basically like a trait.
• Monument UB works best for gameplay, but is not realistic.

I actually disagree with a lot of this. Denmark is inherently a warmonger civ, and one very minimal issue with warmongers is border expansion. The /turn would not be for the sake of border growth, but instead for policy earning. If we place this policy earning power in one city, it becomes much easier to cultivate.

To elaborate: Often when I warmonger, I will still have at most a couple of core cities I try to grow vertically and produce a lot of buildings in. Buildings with Culture modifiers could be built in the city with the Jelling NW for much greater effect.

 

[Thalassicus]

That does make sense.

 

[lindanealmck]

The new vanguards/light infantry changes the balance of power quite a bit. It really buffs the civs with ranged Uniques Units; England (now very powerful), China, Mongols, and to some extent Arabia. American musketmen promote to regular infantry, so not as helpful. Civs with unique melee units seem much less attractive now, since light infantry is fast and can get march promotions from the beginning with Academy/Brandenburg Gate or Social policy. They are very survivable because they can ignore terrain in retreat and attack.

This mod keeps getting better and better. My only gripe is the long resistance. I captured Dehli the other day - it was in resistance for 53 turns - the rest of the game. I crossed the sea and conquered the other civs before it came out of resistance. (Prince level)

 

[Thalassicus]

Unfortunately, our current modding tools have nothing to directly control the resistance timer.

 

[lindanealmck]

That's interesting, because the resistance time is shorter in Vanilla, although I don't have any screen shots. I will have to play another vanilla game to get one. Anyway, thanks for the great mod.

 

[Txurce]

Unfortunately, our current modding tools have nothing to directly control the resistance timer.

That's interesting, because the resistance time is shorter in Vanilla, although I don't have any screen shots. I will have to play another vanilla game to get one. Anyway, thanks for the great mod.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. lindanealmck is probably referring to resistance lasting twice as long in VEM.

 

[Seek]

That's interesting, because the resistance time is shorter in Vanilla, although I don't have any screen shots. I will have to play another vanilla game to get one. Anyway, thanks for the great mod.

That's because in vanilla the population of the city is halved at conquest. In VEM the city only loses up to two pop, so the resistance is longer. This *is* implemented to make conquest a bit more difficult, and size 53 cities are uncommon so I don't think it's too much of an issue.

One thing to try if you encounter a similar situation would be to pillage as many farms as you can (both before and, with workers, after you take the city) to starve the pop down to more manageable numbers.

 

[Txurce]

That's because in vanilla the population of the city is halved at conquest. In VEM the city only loses up to two pop, so the resistance is longer. This *is* implemented to make conquest a bit more difficult, and size 53 cities are uncommon so I don't think it's too much of an issue.

The size of the issue is in the eye of the beholder. I have probably read more posts complaining about this than I have about whether a particular unit is OP or UP (Militia excepted!).

 

[lindanealmck]

Thanks for the clarification. India tends to make huge cities, and Dehli had Hanging Gardens as well.

 

[Txurce]

Thanks for the clarification. India tends to make huge cities, and Dehli had Hanging Gardens as well.

By coincidence, I had swallowed a size-38 Delhi yesterday as well. Naturally I don't like waiting to get some benefit from the city, but don't find it objectionable. The ideal for me would be a gradual return to productivity (as opposed to happiness) with each succeeding turn, but that is probably part of what Thal says VEM can't accomplish.

 

[Seek]

By coincidence, I had swallowed a size-38 Delhi yesterday as well. Naturally I don't like waiting to get some benefit from the city, but don't find it objectionable. The ideal for me would be a gradual return to productivity (as opposed to happiness) with each succeeding turn, but that is probably part of what Thal says VEM can't accomplish.

That's a great idea. Brainwashing Faster acculturation could also be a fun wonder or policy mechanic (when the DLL is released)!

 

[Txurce]

That's a great idea. Brainwashing Faster acculturation could also be a fun wonder or policy mechanic (when the DLL is released)!

I liked the "brainwashing" joke. There is a patch out any day now, roughly timed with the DLC. I can only hope it includes the DLL.

 

[Thalassicus]

Unfortunately, our current modding tools have nothing to directly control the resistance timer.

"Directly" is the important word here. These are the steps when a city is conquered:

1. Process CITY_CAPTURE_POPULATION_PERCENT
2. Calculate resistance timer
3. Run event SerialEventCityCaptured

Our current capabilities step in after the resistance timer is calculated, so there's no way to do both non-percentage population changes and resistance control. (There's no SetResistanceTimer or ChangeResistanceTimer function either.)

The ideal for me would be a gradual return to productivity (as opposed to happiness) with each succeeding turn

This is what I'd like too. I'll add it to the game core todo list.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Oh wow, that would be a fantastic system. Some sort of flat resistance time and then assimilate the pop at x/turn. Wouldn't matter how big the city was then.