52 shades of Sid - a story of deities (closed)

[Fippy]

Okay i will look
Well..settling 1w (or aiming for doing so, by moving there on t0) saves 1 turn if you find nothing further south.
Cos warrior can look, if settler moves in between as Elite suggested.

Not trying for something better would ring those alarm bells for me, but i am probably just over my head with this topic.
I want everybody to have fun usually, i have seen what serious gaming can do to peoples.
That's all on me thou, and might not even cross your minds.

 

[Pedro78]

Not trying for something better would ring those alarm bells for me, but i am probably just over my head with this topic

Hahaha don't get too serious with it. I'll think about it for 10 more minutes when I start the game tomorrow and it'll all be fine, even if I fail this game horribly

 

[sampsa]

@Fippy: I think at least some part of me understands what you mean, but I must also say that I have a deep admiration for people who take the maximalist approach in whatever they do, even when it is something as moot as a strategy game (strategy games have always been the biggest thing in my life so I think I have the right to call them moot ). I also understand that people approach things differently and it needs to be respected. People also experience "fun" or the need for it in various ways. For example, I'm not sure if civ is fun for me, but I certainly enjoy the intellectual entertainment and the challenges that it provides.

Funny that this start made us lightbulb philosophy.

 

[Pedro78]

The first 50 turns. I don't foresee a T215 spaceship launch for this game

Spoiler write-up to turn 50 :

Followed Elitetroop's advice for initial settling -

Spoiler :

Warrior 1SE

Settler 2SW

Nothing thrilling on T0. Now warrior 1S

Okay that's better. Certainly not better than 1W of original position in the very early turns as it's lower on commerce but will definitely pay off mid-term. Settled 3S of original position on T2. Still, not a fancy start...

Spoiler T1 and T3 demographics :

No CRE, no CHA AIs.

Research set to Agriculture ofc.

• On turn 7 I haven't met anyone yet, and the land is rather "uninspiring"

Spoiler :

• On turn 8 I decide that there is no reason to explore that desert crap right now and that my warrior would be better off fogbusting -

Spoiler :

• Buddhism founded on T9 and Hinduism on T11. So there's two Myst-starters on this map (can't be the Celts)
• On turn 12 Agriculture is finished. Research set to mining. Pottery is one tech away so at this point I'm not sure whether I want BW or Pottery first. These river plains aren't very sexy, though.
• Worker is finished on T14. Now warriors. Will need a few of them if I want to skip Archery (I DO want to skip Archery).
• On turn 20 we still haven't met anyone. Isolated? Oh god... Didn't I just ask for a "casual" game? Mining is done. Research set to BW as I want to reveal copper and there are several "suspicious" tiles from the original BFC that might hold copper (or something else). Worker farms the Sheep before building mines as it's riverside and I'd also like to grow to size 4 before starting on a settler.

Spoiler T20 :

• On T23 it does definitely look like I'm isolated BUT I've found a great city spot:

Spoiler :

Well not THAT great but it has a lot of commerce, which is what I want in Iso.

• On turn 28 Mecca reaches size 3 and finishes the third warrior. I decide to grow one more size while working on SH as I'd rather grow on something useful and I don't see any urge in getting a second city up. I hope for Copper but right now the barb situation is in control:

Spoiler :

Spoiler SH, the best wonder in the game :

I'll get 30 guaranteed failgold from SH. Much better than an earlier second city, which actually wouldn't come earlier (maybe 1T) because at size 4 I'l be able to chop.

• On turn 33 Worker has nothing to do for 3T waiting for BW. PH mine not worth it as it takes 2T to move + 4T to improve. So 2 turns are "wasted" on roading. Or are they?
• On turn 36 we reach Bronze Working and...

Spoiler :

We have copper

I'll settle the sheep spot first, though. It will grow while waiting for Pottery and has an Oasis so it'll be much more useful early on. Not too worried about the barbs as I have two warriors there already, plus it's on a hill and in case things get ugly I can revolt to Slavery (thanks to SPI) and whip a warrior. An axeman will go there eventually.

• On turn 42 our fierce warrior, fortified in the forest, wins a 96.7% fight against a barb warrior. This game has a lucky start.
• Medina is settled on turn 43. Mecca is meanwhile building another settler.
• Pottery is done on turn 45. But Medina doesn't start on a Granary because I'm dumb and I forgot.
• Damascus is founded on turn 48. It starts on a worker because I could use one more and there's no point in an early granary there:

Spoiler :

• On turn 50 it appears that...

Spoiler :

We're not isolated

His workboat came from the south. Have to send a warrior to check the coast once Mecca's borders pop on turn 52.

And apparently we are not semi-isolated, because EPs tell us that Pacal has met someone else. Not sure if we'll be able to meet that someone, though.

He's the Hindu founder and apparently doesn't have Sailing. That's all we know about him for now.

• Now I'll have to explore a bit. Mecca has built another worker (sent to Medina) and will build an Axeman as soon as the Copper is online. One warrior will then come back from Medina for MP in Mecca, no reason to pay extra unit upkeep for nothing. Fogbusters near Medina are a bit weak because they've just killed two more warriors (no Archers yet, kinda lucky here I guess), hope I'll be safe for 2-3 more turns. No fourth city spot in mind, have to think a bit about what I want to do now.
• As I'm not isolated, Marble can definitely open up some options, especially considering how crappy my land is.

 

[Lain]

2000 BC update

Spoiler :

Warrior doesn't find anything special. I thought about waiting one more turn to scout that PH, but I am worried about lack of commerce there and losing more turns, so this will have to do. Also, coast could be useful.



Teching Agriculture, scouting reveals dry wheat. Well... dry wheat or floodplain, I don't know. I think the extra early commerce in my position is not so bad.



Found what looks like a half-decent site, a bit far away though. Good defensive terrain for warriors at least.



And there seems to be a connection to another continent due to suspicious tile yields. Will have to keep an eye on that



After Agriculture I tech Mining and start by farming the sheep... and continue with Bronze Working while building 4 warriors and putting a few hammers into Stonehenge.



Soon I have a decent fogbusting network... definitely not going Archery here.



4 warriors are out and capital reaches size 3... time for a settler. There is a barb warrior in the fog that helps keeping archers from spawning, so I don't engage him.



Decent land with the oasis and sheep, but I go south for the fish. I can't really defend anything to the west yet.



Soon that will change though with the discovery of copper



Building a road all the way down for the trade route connection... I feel that's most important with the poor commerce and all. Can still chop later. Teching Fishing, intending to follow up with Pottery and Writing.



Can finally take out the barb warrior, also 23 failgold from Stonehenge.



I thought about settling Fishy on the grassland hill, to maybe get culture on the ocean and reach the other continent, but that probably won't work, so I go for the more useful PH



Meanwhile, capital built a 2nd worker. Started on the next settler already. Copper mine can be started next turn after 100 culture border pop from the capital. Might sneak in an axeman to be safe, wasn't able to push west yet to fogbust there.



In the south, I completed the road, chopped a workboat and will cottage both river tiles.



Skipping AH, though I have some doubts about how smart that was... after Writing I intend Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws/Monarchy. Maybe grab the religion

Will stay on 3 cities for a while. Minimalistic.

Will be a trainwreck of a game tbh.

 

[Pedro78]

@Lain thanks for playing! Not many people are willing to play this kind of start these days.

Spoiler about your game :

• Once again we have a different settling plan. I don't think either one is bad, but settling Mecca on the 3S PH definitely helps with barbs
• Not convinced about building a mine before the FP farm and working it all the way until size 3. I think it would have been better to work the FP farm first.
• Same thing with the road, could have chopped a forest and built a cottage instead
• Not sure how our positions compare on T50. I have one more city but you're a bit ahead in tech I think.

Indeed it looks like it's going to be a long and painful game...

I've played to T100, update coming in a moment

 

[Pedro78]

Update to turn 100 (375 BC). Not a whole lot of action but I really enjoy this map because there's a lot of different possibilities despite the poor land.

Spoiler write-up to turn 100 (375 BC) :

• On turn 52 Mecca gets its second border pop, which makes fogbusting much easier and allows the southwestern warrior to move back for MP:

Spoiler :

• On turn 53 my fogbusting warrior spots Pacal's borders. It appears that I could most likely get trade routes with him If I plant a city on the southern GH and get a border pop. But it would be an otherwise useless city. Would have done it if the start was a little more forgiving but here I really can't send a settler+pay maintenance for that only:

Spoiler :

• On turn 55 Pacal gets sailing. No happy res for trade though. Have to connect the Wheat to (maybe) trade it to him if he gets something interesting available for trade.
• On turn 56 a warrior gets promoted to woodsman II after a couple of kills (including an Archer). With 25% fortify bonus in a forest it nows feels safer :

Spoiler :

• On turn 57 Mecca finishes an Axeman and starts on a settler (9) for the fish spot
• On turn 58 Damascus finishes the worker. Now paying 1gpt "unit cost" but I can't afford to disband any warriors yet. Animal Husbandry reveals horses 2W of the fish spot. Now going Fishing-Writing -

Spoiler :

• On turn 63 I reach Fishing. I was planning to build a wb ASAP for the fish spot but meanwhile my scouting WMII warrior finds a river with grasslands and floodplains and wheat. It will cost some worker turns but I'm pretty sure it's worth it to settle it first. Might need another Axeman aswell:

Spoiler :

• At the same time I decide to go Sailing before Writing. It's quite unusual and is an expensive tech but in this case it has several advantages:

1. My cities are coastal and far away from each other
2. I want to build a Galley early to settle the northern island
3. Lighthouses will eventually allow me to work coast, which is good when commerce is really low

• On turn 64 Pacal will trade wine, which means he's got Monarchy damn early (no Oracle). I wait for one turn until I connect the wheat to trade with him so I don't get unnecessary unhealthiness in Mecca. The extra happiness will come in really handy

Spoiler a [B :

turn 66[/B] barb overview]
Barb cities actually help a lot with fogbusting. It does all look pretty safe now:

It's not apparent on the above screenshot, but there are barb borders 2NW of the Axeman:

• On turn 69 I reach Sailing. And damn, 5 Archers in that city?

Spoiler :

• On turn 70 we come to an interesting micro situation:

Spoiler :

We are doing 9hpt, 3 food surplus and have 20 hammers from chopping. I need a Settler and an Axeman to settle the island. Ideally they would both be boarded in a Galley in 5 turns, as the Galley will be done in Damascus on T75. The Settler is at 62/100 and the Axeman at 0/35. Now do I put the chop into the Axeman or the Settler? Does that even make a difference? Let's take a closer look:

• If I put the chop into the Settler, I'll finish it in 2 turns with 6 overflow into the Axeman. The latter will be built in 4 turns. This is 6 turns total. Not good.
• If I put the chop into the Axeman I'll finish it in 2 turns with 3 overflow into the settler. The latter will be completed in 3 turns. 5 turns total, it's much better even though I lose 3 food.
• The explanation to this is that I actually produce more hpt towards the Settler than towards the Axeman as food surplus is converted to hammers when building the Settler. So my hammer total is superior if I build the Settler for more turns.

Actually I'll put the chop into the Axeman and then build the Settler for 2 turns. Then complete the Axeman and complete the Settler with the overflow. This allows me to save on unit costs and board both units on the Galley on the same turn.

• On turn 71 Pacal builds the Oracle. Not sure what he took from it as he doesn't have Alpha yet.
• On turn 72 Baghdad is founded. Worker is on the way and an other one is currently being built in Medina. That's all the workers I'll need for quite a while:

Spoiler :

• On turn 76 I reach Writing. I don't recall ever being so late to Writing. But my empire is rather well set so I think I'll catch up later, especially with the marble. Pacal has Writing for a while already but I don't OB with him as he would get intercontinental trade routes... the last thing I want is him teching even faster...
• On turn 77 Najran is founded. It does give quite a big boost as every trade route is now +2 instead of +1:

Spoiler :

• On turn 81 exploration of the island reveals a double gold + pig spot :

Spoiler :

JK

• On turn 83 Pacal adopts Vassalage. Man is he teching fast...
• On turn 86 Pacal cancels the wine for sheep deal. I give him Copper instead. I have 281 gold, Madrasa is done in Mecca so I start teching Masonry-Aest-Litt
• On turn 92 Taoism is founded. I highly suspect it to be Pacal...
• On turn 93 I reach Aesthetics
• On turn 95 marble is connected. I reach Polytheism and start putting hammers into the Parthenon
• On turn 97 Pacal's city count goes down from 8 to 7. He also wants my sheep again. Looks like someone is kicking his ass. But he has longbows already.. what a whimp . He gets Alpha and doesn't have Aesthetics so I decide to tech Priesthood and put one turn into Monarchy so I can finally get HR. He doesn't have MC either... might be able to squeeze out some trades here . I start chopping into the Parthenon. Will be really late to Litterature... at worst it will only be trade bait + fail gold. Glib would be really nice with such a crappy bpt though.

Spoiler fail gold please :

• On turn 99 I trade Aesthetics for Monarchy
• On turn 100 Pacal's city count is back to 8. Litterature coming soon.

Spoiler turn 100 city overview :

Mecca - future GLib city (don't have anywhere else to built it) decent amount of comerce. Would have prefered some river corns + floodplains but whatever:

Medina - decent commerce, will get a GS someday. Not much else to say.

Damascus - its only living purpose is to pump out workers/settlers/WBs. Doesn't even have a granary and won't need it for a while.

Baghdad - will be a very strong city eventually.

Najran - you get the idea

Attached the T75 and T100 saves if anyone's interested

Certainly a very slow start. I think my position is decent but I have few milestones to compare it with. Haven't looked at Fippy's saves yet, opening them might be a shock ^^

 

[petersc]

On turn 81 exploration of the island reveals a double gold + pig spot

LOL

 

[Lain]

Well if you want to look at my T100 ... not sure I have the willpower to go on. Might resign. JK, will grind out the win no matter what.

Just not playing so well in the last week or so. Will write some update when I have more time.

 

[Pedro78]

Just one question for now, will comment more later (because I love to make "comments" )
Did you self-tech Monarchy? Everything is very minimalistic in your game, which can be a good thing (you're a bit ahead in tech compared to me), but going for Monarchy would completely go against your game's synergy..

Edit -

Just not playing so well in the last week or so

Just take a break! I do that all the time, works very well. And your last game on video was pretty good

 

[Lain]

Traded CoL for Monarchy. Now failgold from CI and steamroll to Optics with 60 beakers, but 100% slider

 

[Pedro78]

steamroll

Yeah this Saladin game is all about steamrolling. Pretty sure we can reach 500bpt in the BCs here

Still some things that I can't read in your save, so I'll just wait for your write-up (no hurry) and write my thoughts on both our games and Fippy's game

 

[Lain]

Really want to continue here one of these days. But when I open my save and see my capital etc, I hit Alt+F4 after 30 seconds. Why did nobody suggest to move inland before settling? (JK ). Maybe restart, retire or keep suffering.

Random thoughts.

Spoiler :

Generally I like that minimalistic approach with commerce poor starts. Staying on 3-4 cities until close to Optics. Maybe 5-6 with enough failgold. For example a barb city in my game ruined the playstyle you went for with expansion and enough cottages. I just wonder... on a big map like here, AI will have 10+ cities each. Is it possible to catch them later? Hmm. I also really struggle to win domination from "isolated" positions. Usually UN, sometimes space. Must be doing something wrong? After the first Cannon attack it's like 1500 AD and only one guy is dead, sometimes two. Not enough time to take out everyone.

How is your game going?

 

[Pedro78]

I've been slacking off for the last couple of weeks. Will play to turn 150 tomorrow. I really need to have a strict "Civ schedule" if I want to keep progressing.

I'm really not a fan of minimalistic approach in isolation. In 99% of the cases you'll want to reach Steel in a reasonable timeline, which means you need to reach say 300 bpt ideally in every game. Can be a little less if you have either big bulbing power or great trading partners. So you want a few core cities with lots of cottages that will produce most of your research in the mid-game aswell.
A minimalistic approach will get you earlier Optics and earlier Astro. But imagine you get T130 Astro and have 150bpt -- what next? I'd much rather have T140 Astro and 250 bpt. In a standard game (say Pangaea or "normal" Continents) the minimalistic approach can really stand out as you don't need "big" techs to break out, even Cuirs only require very little bpt if you're going to "bulb" them.

TBH I've never finished an iso game, but I feel like domination is possible in most cases. Have to optimize the initial attack date and make the right mid-game choices (don't build too many units, don't tech Rifling/MS when you don't have to etc.). I'll try domination or conquest on this one, if it works then it should be possible in just about any game, if it fails horribly then it'll teach me some humility

About your game -

Spoiler :

I don't think "SIP" hurt you that much, the biggest issues I see are..

• Not settling the island
• Second city should have been Oasis+FP
• Baghdad should have the wheat in the first ring
• Najran settled way too late
• CoL was imo a big mistake. You have both marble and low food -- this screams for the GLib and makes Caste System pretty weak. With the GLib I'll be able to bulb Astro+Chemistry easily, maybe even get a golden age get a GM. Here you will be stuck with low commerce AND low gpp. The uglier your land is, the more valuable economic wonders become.

That barb city also really screwed you, but that's just because you're RNG's worst ennemy

Not sure if the game is winnable from your position, the combination of the above things made it all very ugly, but IMO there's no shame in restarting. It's really healthy to replay "hard" maps you've failed. The hardest part in restarting is keeping the motivation to get through the turns you've already played.

About game schedule, this game should be over by the end of next week and then I'll try to post one or two games per month, depending on the type of game.

 

[Pedro78]

1 AD right now.. pretty close to the 500 bpt I expected -

Spoiler :

Will probably tech Compass now and hopefully trade for the last part of Machinery (Pacal doesn't have it yet). ~500g from the Parthenon should come about anytime now.

Will play to T150 and then write-up

 

[Lain]

@ minimalistic playstyle

Spoiler :

Yeah you are probably right. Here we have enough rivers to support a more expansive playstyle. Without the failgold from Parthenon it might be a bit harder? On my infamous Mao map though I don't know, I am stuck on 3-4 cities for a long time there, otherwise I just go broke.

Instant cottages on a river pay back quickly, even without food. At least I learned that.

@ my game

Spoiler :

Because of my settling I needed fogbusters in the south and that delayed securing the west. Oasis + FP was too risky with 2+ barb archers roaming around. With map knowledge... so much available land could mean early barb axemen + spearmen. Scary stuff. Fish+Horse was safe . Also I was afraid Pacal would settle it with early Galleys? They like doing that

I would probably restart. But it feels boring to copy the Aesthetics playstyle~ Hmm... maybe a straight Astro push to compare. I have to re-read, but I think Writing came kind of late for you? So good job on securing GL.

I wonder how skipping the marble/island would work out. No early Sailing etc.

@ your game 1 AD

Spoiler :

Did you build an academy?

Traded for Monarchy?

Basra settle is something I would probably delay for a long time, like 300 AD maybe. I always thought 6 is like the magic city number in "isolation"

 

[Pedro78]

I've played a few openings on that Mao map. I already know the map so I can't find the heart to play it, but if you have a similar one (could be the next game for the Workshop) I'd be glad to play it

Spoiler @ strategies & our games :

You can try a straight Astro push but I think it's just wrong when you have marble. If you skip everything you might get ~T130 Astro but then what? No failgold, no GPP, very low bpt, nothing that will get you to Steel early enough. It would just make the game much harder than it already is.

Writing came really late in my game but there was no need for it - forests were saved for GLib and there was no food to whip, so getting up libraries was very hard early anyway.

And yeah the initial inland move was actually pretty important when thinking back...

@my game -

An Academy? Saladin doesn't know that word, especially when his capital has 20 base commerce and needs to run scientists

Yup traded for monarchy T99.

One picture about Basra settle

Spoiler :

(No maths, was 3 of my 4 workers chopping lol). Plus it adds a few river tiles and has a decent commerce potential. Will expand to 11 cities before Cannons, but the next 4 cities would indeed only drag me down here. Only issue is I had to build a Trireme (hate to do that)

 

[Pedro78]

Okay guys I think I need a break. Maybe I'll try to meditate or whatever, will write-up a little bit later this week. Meanwhile y'all can discuss what's good and what's not so good in this picture

Spoiler :

 

[Lain]

Hmm, this must be a trick question

Spoiler :

Because I only see positives. More free tech you will get in the capitulation deal after your successful 1100 AD-Tank-Rush

 

[Pedro78]

Yeah that's right but..

Spoiler :

There's one reason why I don't like to break out with tanks in isolation - what if I don't have oil? Tech to Robotics and transport Mechanized Infantries in Galleons? Not that hot imo. On a positive note it wouldn't divert me too much off my usual tech path as I always go for Robotics, and on this map I could get a damn early Space Elevator (my favorite wonder )