nonconformist
Miserable
Most people would also consider, you know, invading Iraq to be irresponsible.
6 of 8 "successful" projects in Iraq are acutally failures
- Thread starter Phlegmak
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Masquerouge
Deity
I thought the best contractors were hired after a very selective review process? How could it go wrong?
Ahr ahr arh.
Ahr ahr arh.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
As it was in your very own linked source, perhaps you need to work on your reading comprehension.
Actually, the only thing I am correct about is your utter inability to view such stories critically at all or discuss them in a rational manner.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Here's my solution: Iraq is a complete failure: Leave. (Call me a liberal! I dare ya! It makes my nipples hard!)
You're quoting George W Bush on responsibility?
By the way, if you could just say once, "But what about the good that's going on in Iraq!", it would completely turn me on.
Don't forget to say those corrupt officials are part of Iraq's democracy (which is a success!). Oh man, if you could say that, oh god, I think I might just orgasm.
You're not addressing the fact that BILLIONS of US taxpayer dollars have been flushed down the toilet for this war, as if you don't care! That's ok! Who needed it anyway.
If you are deriving sexual pleasure from such items I suggest you seek help immediately.....that or move in with PP, since you both seem to prefer such kneejerk rhetoric as opposed to actual debate on the merits.
You keep turning me on with your ignoring of the problems in Iraq. And you still support the war! Oh baby.
Actually, MobBoss, this situation is beyond despairing about it. I can only laugh at the usual useless retorts to the utter and complete disaster that is Iraq.
By the way, don't forget to say, "We're only trying to help!"
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
No, you seem to misinterpret me again. I am not ignoring the fact that problems do exist in Iraq. They most certainly do. But, you will have to excuse me for not making a career out of pointing out every itty bitty thing that goes wrong in a war zone. Thats being so anal it could turn a lump of coal into a diamond.
the beeb is a qualified and respected news source among conservatives. You know the intellectual branch of conservatism.
furthermore, its not the fact that failures exist, it's the constant dismissal of failure, and inability of the admin to learn from it that is damning.
furthermore, its not the fact that failures exist, it's the constant dismissal of failure, and inability of the admin to learn from it that is damning.
Fox Mccloud
Deity
Wow. I NEVER could have seen that "solution" coming.
Yet, while you lambast the Conservatives for "inevitable" replies your own inevitable reply was even more lacking in substance, fact and completely ignors the other major side of the equation.
In your deleusion you see only today and yesterday, not tommorow and that what we do today does not affect tomorrow or the days afterwards.
Phlegmak, what do you suppose the Middle East and the world will look like once you defeatists have "won" the day and brought about the withdrawal of the US forces, the only thing safeguarding the fledging Iraqi government from certain colapse?
How much did the September 11 attack cost America?
Counting the value of lives lost as well as property damage and lost production of goods and services, losses already exceed $100 billion. Including the loss in stock market wealth -- the market's own estimate arising from expectations of lower corporate profits and higher discount rates for economic volatility -- the priceapproaches $2 trillion.[/ tag B]
Among the big-ticket items:
The loss of four civilian aircraft valued at $385 million.
The destruction of major buildings in the World Trade Center with a replacement cost of from $3 billion to $4.5 billion.
Damage to a portion of the Pentagon: up to $1 billion.
Cleanup costs: $1.3 billion.
Property and infrastructure damage: $10 billion to $13 billion.
Federal emergency funds (heightened airport security, sky marshals, government takeover of airport security, retrofitting aircraft with anti-terrorist devices, cost of operations in Afghanistan): $40 billion.
Direct job losses amounted to 83,000, with $17 billion in lost wages.
The amount of damaged or unrecoverable property hit $21.8 billion.
Losses to the city of New York (lost jobs, lost taxes, damage to infrastructure, cleaning): $95 billion.
Losses to the insurance industry: $40 billion.
Loss of air traffic revenue: $10 billion.
Fall of global markets: incalculable.
In terms of providing liquidity, we were concerned that the disruptions to the financial markets could have dire consequences for the economy as a whole, so we provided additional funds until orderly functioning could be restored. This included injecting massive amounts of liquidity through discount window loans and open market operations: on the three days after the attacks, the total injection amounted to over $100 billion a day. In addition, we lowered short-term interest rates twice over the next three weeks by 100 basis points in total.
The economic outlook over the short run
Besides the disruptions to financial markets, there were other reasons for activity to stall in the weeks and months after the attacks. As I already said, we were in the midst of a cyclical slowdown before the attacks, and it was largely consumer spending that was keeping real GDP growth barely positive. [Note: On November 26, the National Bureau of Economic Research announced that it had determined that the U.S. economy entered into a recession in March 2001.] By undermining consumer confidence, the attacks hit directly at the economy's main pillar of support. And, of course, it's not surprising that business confidence also suffered, since consumer spending represents about two-thirds of overall demand for goods and services.
Indeed, the latest surveys show that consumer confidence is way down. Most categories of consumer spending plummeted in September but recouped a good bit in October. Of course, auto sales have been strong because of temporary sales incentives. But industrial output and business investment spending still appear to be dropping sharply, as they have for several quarters.
One of the clearest monthly measures of our economic performance is payroll employment, and recent news is grim. In October, private payroll employment fell by 439,000 jobs--the largest one-month decline in more than fifteen years--and the unemployment rate jumped from 4.9% to 5.4%.
In terms of overall economic activity, real GDP contracted at about a half a percent annual rate in the third quarter, after being pulled down in the last three weeks of the quarter by the aftermath of the attacks. For the current quarter, I'd have to agree with what most forecasters are saying. We almost certainly face further rises in the unemployment rate, which could put even more of a damper on consumer confidence, and the falloff in activity is likely to be sharper than it was in the third quarter.
A longer-term perspective
So far, I've focused on the short run, and, admittedly, what we can see looks pretty rocky. But let me turn now to the longer run, where the picture is a good deal more positive. Why? Because there are several important sources of stimulus that should make economic activity rebound.
First, the Fed has cut short-term interest rates ten times since January. The federal funds rate now stands at 2%, compared to 6-1/2% back then. The second source of stimulus is fiscal policy, which is coming in three programs: the major tax reduction in June, including the recent tax rebates, the emergency spending bill enacted just after the attacks, and the fiscal stimulus bill currently in the Congress. These fiscal programs add up to a major amount of stimulus--perhaps around $160 billion in fiscal year 2002. Third, energy prices have declined this year. The price of imported oil has fallen by nearly half since last November, and the price of natural gas has fallen even more dramatically. These price declines give firms and households more purchasing power, and they should help stimulate demand. Fourth, the "overhang" of capital equipment and software, as well as inventories, that I mentioned earlier is one that will correct itself with time. At some point, the stocks of these assets will get to low enough levels that firms will need to start spending on them again.
Nowhere is a recovery in business demand for high-tech equipment and software more critical than here in the Bay Area. About a third of our economy depends directly on these sectors. Although high-tech manufacturers go through periodic downturns, the heights reached during the recent technology boom meant that the industry had further to fall this time. Moreover, this tech downturn is unique because the hardware slump was reinforced by the dot-com implosion. The resulting losses in jobs and wealth have spilled over to other sectors and pulled the rug out from under the area's expansion. For example, the job count has fallen substantially this year, and the number of individuals looking for work has increased by over 100,000 since last December.
http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2001/el2001-35.html
http://www.iags.org/costof911.html
Jawz II
Oh Dear
Good thread, informative, yet very entertaining.
Fox Mccloud
Deity
Pontiuth Pilate (who I assume "PP" is supposed to stand for) and Phlegmak, probably as well as a lot of other posters here are indeed like siamese twins in that respect. Always repeating the same rhetoric, always bashing the conservatives with little interest in actually debating the points, always preaching about the failure in Iraq while proposing none of their own alternatives.
Masquerouge
Deity
Pontiuth Pilate (who I assume "PP" is supposed to stand for) and Phlegmak, probably as well as a lot of other posters here are indeed like siamese twins in that respect. Always repeating the same rhetoric, always bashing the conservatives with little interest in actually debating the points, always preaching about the failure in Iraq while proposing none of their own alternatives.
Errrrr... let's make a test.
MobBoss (who I assume "MB" is supposed to stand for) and Fox Mccloud, probably as well as a lot of other posters here are indeed like siamese twins in that respect. Always repeating the same rhetoric, always bashing the democrats with little interest in actually debating the points, always preaching about the sucess in Iraq while refusing to see that things are grim.
Hey! It works!
Fox Mccloud
Deity
correct.
no...
Maybe to an extent...
no....
no....
while refusing to see that things are grim.
no....
Yeah, did that show me!
nonconformist
Miserable
Pontiuth Pilate (who I assume "PP" is supposed to stand for) and Phlegmak, probably as well as a lot of other posters here are indeed like siamese twins in that respect. Always repeating the same rhetoric, always bashing the conservatives with little interest in actually debating the points, always preaching about the failure in Iraq while proposing none of their own alternatives.
Yep, because Iraq is full of feasable alernatives, which means the situation isn't screwed.
9/11's costs are a red herring in the debate of the merit of the war in Iraq and it's costs.
Unless you are making the large logical leap that without the Iraq war another 9/11 would happen. That the decision we made to spend money in a war of our choosing is the same as losing money to terrorism.
Unless you are making the large logical leap that without the Iraq war another 9/11 would happen. That the decision we made to spend money in a war of our choosing is the same as losing money to terrorism.
WTH does the financial cost of 9/11 have to do with wasted tax payer money?
majority of our taxes did not go toward fixing the property damage, the drop in the stock market, etc. we might have had to fork over tax money to fix the pentagon, and ny probably used local taxes to fix the property damage, but the rest of stuff? moot point.
government needs to learn how to control its spending. i thought republicans were supposed to be about small government, ie less spending? tax cuts are good, but not so good when the spending is increased.
majority of our taxes did not go toward fixing the property damage, the drop in the stock market, etc. we might have had to fork over tax money to fix the pentagon, and ny probably used local taxes to fix the property damage, but the rest of stuff? moot point.
government needs to learn how to control its spending. i thought republicans were supposed to be about small government, ie less spending? tax cuts are good, but not so good when the spending is increased.
But did you see the beautiful layout!? he bolded important parts and everything. It may have been a red herring... but it was so shiny and red... so.... distracted... from... real.... issue.....
AH HA HA!
What the hell does this mean?
Please don't use double negatives when trying to sound wise!
And...
If, you are for one second, trying to claim that the warlovers have any kind of foresight, I present to you the lies of you beloved leaders...
you know... reconstruction pay for itself... ...last throes, if you will... ..MISSION ACCOMPLISHED....
How that banner must sting every time... every time... and I know you Bushies actually believed it would soon be over... and the whole USA would see how enliughtened your war was.
Now you are all a joke... ESPECIALLY when you make claims you know about the way things will turn out.
But did you see the beautiful layout!? he bolded important parts and everything. It may have been a red herring... but it was so shiny and red... so.... distracted... from... real.... issue.....
AH HA HA!
What the hell does this mean?
Please don't use double negatives when trying to sound wise!
And...
If, you are for one second, trying to claim that the warlovers have any kind of foresight, I present to you the lies of you beloved leaders...
you know... reconstruction pay for itself... ...last throes, if you will... ..MISSION ACCOMPLISHED....
How that banner must sting every time... every time... and I know you Bushies actually believed it would soon be over... and the whole USA would see how enliughtened your war was.
Now you are all a joke... ESPECIALLY when you make claims you know about the way things will turn out.
We Seattlelites are not so easily fooled. Unless it's by other Seattlelites.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Actually, I would very much like to debate the points and even brought up a few issues I found non-sensical in the story.
One point is most certainly why classify a facility as a 'failure' because of the generators (most likely portable generators) are not being used/working?
While I dont discount the accuracy of the BBC reporting, you have to admit that this story is most certainly lacking in detail. Are the generators actually broken down or simply not being used? Are they broken down due to negligence or overuse or to insurgent activity? Or are they not being used because the local power is actually on?
Having been in the military and somewhat familiar with generators and their use, I can most assuredly tell you a field site wouldnt be labeled a failure for the simple reason the generator was down. Even under ideal circumstances, such generator problems are commonplace. They require a lot of supervision and maintenance to keep going non-stop and even then, one will go kaput at least once or twice a week. Knowing this, I dont see how it could be listed as a 'failure point' when such downtimes with generators are commonplace.
Now then...that was me debating the point. Do you care to actually debate the issue on the merits or merely parrot those that you dont agree with?
That is not debating the point, that is classic "we dont know the facts behind the facts, in fact nobody does, and the media's facts are biased, so I must be right" logic.
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