[Vote] (7-92) Integrate 4UC Mod Into Vox Populi

[SuperNoobCamper]

I do not want my two cents to be a wall of text but i think there are some points i need to elborate on why I personally don't think integrating 4th UC is a good idea despite never ever playing without it ever since i first tried it.

1. This might be just me not liking the most recent changes but integrating a mod of such scale may require boringifying/streamlining the actual unique component to facilitate integrating them *egyptian flax spawn, Shoshone bison, rome Unique improvement for example* because of DLL integration issues/balance issues as seen in the latest major release of 4th UC.

2. Modmods especially custom civs: not every custom civ has 4th UC support so it makes playing with or against these civs unbalanced because either you play with less uniques than other civs or you play against a handicapped civ.

3. This is a completely subjective take but from a creative POV being an optional component allows more creativity -even if tipping the balance is a side effect- in maintenance of the project than being an integral part of an already large project.

Lastly i appreciate PAD and the rest of contributers who managed to maintain such a massive project for a long time and added more content and supported it but again i think it still should be it's own thing.

 

[Hawawaa]

And were coming out the gates storming holy crap...

 

[balparmak]

Stop the count!

4UC literally bussing voters in for the count, unbelievable.

I was about the narcissistically quote myself for point 3, but Recursive the almighty and objective god-emperor already did that. Initially I voted No but I'm a boring person, check my modmods, they make the game boring (or simplified if you want to be kind). If I was somehow commanding the resources of VP, i.e. the voluntary time the devs are spending on the mod, my priority would be to perfect the AI's use of the already existing UCs before adding anything. That said, as far as I know pretty much all current devs/maintainers support inclusion of 4UC, and I fully trust them, pdan and the community, it feels a bit wrong to stand against such a strong demand. The 2UC VP is already the best historical 4X anyway, change can be good.

 

[pineappledan]

If any of you are up for a little light reading, I wrote my own review for how satisfied/unsatisfied I am with each of the civs and their extra components:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/pineappledan-4uc-report-card-thread

As was said in the OP:

1. The vote today is on whether or not to add 2 new fully DLL-integrated unique components to each civilization in the game. It is NOT on whether to integrate all 43 civ kits exactly as proposed by pineappledan, but it IS an agreement to integrate the version that the community sponsors and votes on. If this vote passes:

Thus, a low score for a civ or component should not be interpreted as the final word on how good/bad integration will be for any given civ. Rather, I would like to see alternatives and counterproposals for how we can improve lackluster 4UC components through discussion and counterproposals.

Discussions have already started on how Carthage and England could be altered from their initial proposals.

 

[L. Vern]

4UC itself was made by a ton of people and imo perfectly embodies the community patch spirit. It's more content and more fun and should be assimilated into the main community patch expansion itself

 

[Boombar]

Not sure i understand what is achieved by adding 4UC to VP.
Feels like the real question we are asking in this thread is should we make 4UC mandatory for everyone instead of having it optional and available for people who like it.
From my point of view, this integration changes nothing for people who already use 4UC except that it's saving them few clicks to download new version and enable the mod.
4UC is already balanced with VP in mind and everyone is already happy.
On the other hand, for the people who do not use this mod entire game changes. Which means not everyone will be happy
I don't like to change stuff that works well already especially when it is going to have negative impact on some people without anyone having any actual benefit.
I strongly believe that additional options in this case are much better then forcing major changes.
VP is already extremely complex mod. Anything that brings that complexity to another level like 4UC should be a separate mod.

 

[CppMaster]

4UC is already balanced with VP in mind and everyone is already happy.

The point is to have VP balanced with 4UC in mind.

 

[Pipiskus]

From my point of view, this integration changes nothing for people who already use 4UC except that it's saving them few clicks to download new version and enable the mod.

Like , no? By adding 4UC to VP we now can propose changes to components and whatnot on a council instead of begging creator for consideration which means more enjoyable experience for a lot of people.

On the other hand, for the people who do not use this mod entire game changes. Which means not everyone will be happy
I don't like to change stuff that works well already especially when it is going to have negative impact on some people without anyone having any actual benefit.
I strongly believe that additional options in this case are much better then forcing major changes.
VP is already extremely complex mod. Anything that brings that complexity to another level like 4UC should be a separate mod.

Another silly argument, sure it wouldnt make everyone happy, the point is to make a majority happy, and the majority as we see it right now is supporting this idea. Plus itve been confirmed that 4UC can be made optional, so i dont really get why are you complaining about it. And no, 4UC doesnt make the game that much complex, you are exaggerating but it certainly makes civs feel more unique to the extent when complexity doesnt matter.

 

[hokath]

From my point of view, this integration changes nothing for people who already use 4UC except that it's saving them few clicks to download new version and enable the mod.

I get what you are saying but it's not that simple. For instance, 4UC often breaks when the mod is updated and has to be fixed. Just recently we have the PromotionTree removal, which caused a whole mess. This is a negative experience for many players that lack the skills to fix it themselves that goes quite far beyond a mere inconvenience of clicks.

 

[Stalker0]

Not sure i understand what is achieved by adding 4UC to VP.
Feels like the real question we are asking in this thread is should we make 4UC mandatory for everyone instead of having it optional and available for people who like it.
From my point of view, this integration changes nothing for people who already use 4UC except that it's saving them few clicks to download new version and enable the mod.
4UC is already balanced with VP in mind and everyone is already happy.
On the other hand, for the people who do not use this mod entire game changes. Which means not everyone will be happy
I don't like to change stuff that works well already especially when it is going to have negative impact on some people without anyone having any actual benefit.
I strongly believe that additional options in this case are much better then forcing major changes.
VP is already extremely complex mod. Anything that brings that complexity to another level like 4UC should be a separate mod.

The biggest thing is to give custodianship of 4UC to the larger VP dev team.

Right now PAD maintains the modmod principally but has indicated that support will likey drop within the year or so, so unless someone else takes stewardship the modmod will eventually grow out of date and will no longer work with VP.

 

[azum4roll]

Plus itve been confirmed that 4UC can be made optional, so i dont really get why are you complaining about it.

No, you'll never get the current 2UC back without extensive work done to re-add removed components and rebalance them. At best you'll have VP-lite that's nowhere balanced.

 

[CppMaster]

The biggest thing is to give custodianship of 4UC to the larger VP dev team.

Right now PAD maintains the modmod principally but has indicated that support will likey drop within the year or so, so unless someone else takes stewardship the modmod will eventually grow out of date and will no longer work with VP.

So that's yet another reason for the integration

 

[Pipiskus]

No, you'll never get the current 2UC back without extensive work done to re-add removed components and rebalance them. At best you'll have VP-lite that's nowhere balanced.

Why do u need to re-add components? Just make it clear what two components are the main ones, and cut 4UC (maybe its not that easy, idk). Though i agree it doesnt worth the work needed to please the small minority.

 

[Captain Carrot]

If this vote passes then sponsorship and development time will actually be allotted to integrate 4UC features. If it fails then a regular congress will take place for all manner of other changes instead.

So it just happens a few months later? Is that such a big deal?

It is not realistic to think integration will happen without a mandate; that is asking devs to work more than twice as hard for something that is completely optional.

I wouldn't have dreamt of it, had the devs themselves not agreed to do it.

 

[Stalker0]

Why do u need to re-add components? Just make it clear what two components are the main ones, and cut 4UC (maybe it’s not that easy, idk). Though i agree it doesnt worth the work needed to please the small minority.

While most of the civs that are being proposed are just two extra features, there are some civs where the UA is changed or the original UU is changed, etc.

For those Axum is noting it would take additional work to get them back their 2UC state.

Now perhaps in the civ voting we decide not to allow that for any civ, in order to facilitate a “return to 2UC” type modmod, but it’s something we have to handle when it comes to the civ vote

 

[Trumtram]

I see this as a chance to give each Civ a bit more flavor (that's what I enjoy about it). Plus, as I understand it, having the mod included means all its contents would fall under congress activity and therefore could get refined by all VP players and not just mod players. So the occurring balance issues could get rectified in a centralized fashion. I can only see wins all around with this one.

 

[pineappledan]

Even if you wanted to go back down to a 2UC mode with a modmod, there would still be some small benefits that 4UC integration could give:
- a very large pool of CS only gifts. Like how the sipahi and longbowman from vanilla only exist as CS gifts now.
- the potential choice of 4 components to make a custom 2UC. Players would have the option of picking 1 UU to keep or the other, and make a 2UC experience that is tailored to their preferences.

 

[Recursive]

I've been pondering what I think about this vote and I've come to a conclusion: Yea.

My desired vision for Vox Populi is for it to, as a standalone experience, become / remain - depending on your point of view - one of the best 4X games on the market, despite not costing any money to play (beyond the cost of paying Firaxis for BNW - and hey, they get paid every time someone buys the game just to play VP, so they benefit too).

For the mod to reach this goal, priorities include making it more accessible to continuous development (both technically and balance wise), multiplayer compatible, more intelligent with its AI, and of course fun to play. The more the player base increases, the more resources we'll have to tap into.

The above priorities are what I want to focus on when I develop the community roadmap, which I'll get to after I finish my proposals, but I believe integrating 4UC would be favorable to my objectives:

• This overwhelming level of community support is a reason in itself to integrate it as far as fun goes. It adds replayability to the game. If it is not integrated and pdan's support for it drops, we could lose a substantial portion of the player base.
  
  
• The 650 AI games have shown that it, if anything, makes the game a more balanced experience.
  
  
• 4UC in its modmodded, less-integrated state with dummy buildings and Lua scripts which not everyone uses (or mentions when they make bug reports) makes it more difficult to debug bug reports. Integrating it into VP proper would make it more stable and make debugging issues with the mod less frustrating.
  
  
• DLL integration in a multiplayer-stable way would increase the number of players playing the mod once we make it multiplayer compatible. Increasing the size of the player base in turn increases our general resources.
  
  
• More cool abilities, provided we add AI support for them later, are a plus for anyone looking to develop mods in general, and would open opportunities for balancing the game.
  
  
• As pdan said, having five knobs instead of three to adjust a civ's balance, while it adds complexity, would open opportunities for balancing the game.

That's not to say that there won't be challenges with integration (it'll especially make improvements to the AI more challenging) or that everyone will be happy, but overall in the long term I think it'll be beneficial.

 

[CppMaster]

@Recursive how about closing the poll earlier, because of overwhelming majority votes Yes for the integration? It'd allow to take steps into integration earlier.

 

[ma_kuh]

No, you'll never get the current 2UC back without extensive work done to re-add removed components and rebalance them.

While most of the civs that are being proposed are just two extra features, there are some civs where the UA is changed or the original UU is changed, etc.

I think we can head this problem off by including in the proposals which two components are the core 2UCs. For example, Aztec Floating Gardens being removed is only a problem because we didn't propose "Replace Floating Gardens with Huey Teocalli" in a previous congress.

I don't think there are too many instances of this that it can't be handled with a little bit of discussion and consensus building. Regarding 2UC balance I thought we were already somewhat agreed that a "revert to 2UC" mod would be prioritizing onboarding/simplicity at the expense of some balance. That's the current state of affairs anyway.