7 New Civs You'd Like to See in Civ7

This thread is going in so many directions all at once, but I can't help but step in here to say that the Gauls make sense as a separate civ from France, as modern and medieval France is 'derived' (for want of a better word) from the Franks, not the Gauls. French connections to the Gauls are mostly nation-mythology. In the same vein I would say Ancient Britons ≠ England.

It's for the same reason the idea of having an Italian civ separate from a Roman one makes sense for me, considering medieval and modern Italy owes much to the Germanic influx in the last days of Western Rome
While ethnicity and low culture aren’t everything, they aren’t nothing either. I think it should be held in balance with linguistic and political history. I would argue Civ 6 made a conscious choice to locate more of a civ’s identity with low culture, and thus “the common people” in its decision to use folk music for the soundtracks, where possible. Older games mostly used patriotic or “high culture” music.

France is an excellent example, because their ruling class, the borders, warrior nobility, and the name were/are Frankish (Germanic). Their language, administration, and religion were inherited from the Romans (Italic), and the common folk are mostly the original Gallic people (Celtic). French identity is a mixture of those three influences into something new. Focusing too much on the ethnic continuity of Gaul and France risks being genetic essentialism. However, focusing too much on the Germanic and “high culture” aspects of France reproduces old, uncritical Great Man historiography. Neither gives the full picture.
 
tbf, my reasoning is basically that:
  1. Celtic culture is something I explicitly associate with Ireland, which I much rather would have represented
  2. The Greeks call France Galia
Not the most sound reasoning, I must admit.
I wouldn't mind Ireland being in Civ 7.
 
While ethnicity and low culture aren’t everything, they aren’t nothing either. I think it should be held in balance with linguistic and political history. I would argue Civ 6 made a conscious choice to locate more of a civ’s identity with low culture, and thus “the common people” in its decision to use folk music for the soundtracks, where possible. Older games mostly used patriotic or “high culture” music.

France is an excellent example, because their ruling class, the borders, warrior nobility, and the name were/are Frankish (Germanic). Their language, administration, and religion were inherited from the Romans (Italic), and the common folk are mostly the original Gallic people (Celtic). French identity is a mixture of those three influences into something new. Focusing too much on the ethnic continuity of Gaul and France risks being genetic essentialism. However, focusing too much on the Germanic and “high culture” aspects of France reproduces old, uncritical Great Man historiography. Neither gives the full picture.
Just an aside here, but just to note that intellectually, France identifies far more with Rome than Gaul. As in, regional museums in France (at least, 30 years ago when I was last there) which have artifacts from the Classical Era, identify even obvious Gallic material as 'Roman' if there is any connection, no matter how tenuous, with the Roman province of Gaul or the Roman Empire in general.

And in the somewhat related debate, which at times has gotten even more rancorous than some of the posting here, over the 'ethnicity' of the 'Barbarians' who overran the western Empire, virtually the only point of agreement among the various scholars after spilling reams of ink over it has been the conclusion that ethnicity in the Gothic, Frankish, Vandalic, Lombardic context had little or nothing to do with genetics or race at all: they were all tribal confederations of various kinds, and the similarities that held them together were cultural and political, with many of the cultural attributes linked to status - that is, a vertical structure rather than a horizontal. As posted above, the 'common people' in Post-Roman Gaul remained Celtic/Gallic, while the higher-ups adopted Frankish cultural and political norms. But the overall genetic features of the population did not change that much (cue the discovery from DNA studies that despite all the admixture of Angles, Saxons, Scandinavians, Normans, etc the same genetic group has been living in the Cheshire region of England for 7000 years or more: genetics of groups apparently does not change easily). Culture, and especially physical attributes of culture (costume, architecture, weaponry, jewelry and decoration) change constantly, and frequently from mere contact rather than 'conquest' or migration/invasion.

Point to all this discussion here is that the genetic makeup of a population or individual is less important that the cultural identity self-selected by that group or individual: so Catherine was Russian, Nader Shah was Persian, and despite having German genetics going back as far as we've been able to trace and living in Germany for 11+ years, I'm still American - whatever that means.

And the final point to the Civ game is that in a game that attempts to cover 6000 years and the world or cultural/political groups the only workable system is to use the widest possible definition of culture and group to include all the myriad possibilities of genetic, cultural, political mixes that have occurred, and to admit that the exact genetics and culture are utterly Unimportant in the game unless they manifest in obviously different social, civic, military, political religious attributes that can be modeled in-game. The fact that in a population one group spoke Gallic Latin and another Germanic Frankish or a leader spoke German from birth in a country that spoke Russian means nothing except in the voice-acted Leader graphic, which is, frankly, immaterial to actual play of the game.
 
Literally all of this applies to Persia and China except the arbitrary “region” criteria, which isn’t relevant since Civ is not designed around a TSL map.
The very first thing I clarified from my post is that any selection of what a civ is in-game is arbitrary and subjetive. So say thinks like "we can do with Persia the same that China and India" is not just arbitrary but also vague since you are not giving some clear comparison (seriously, was @Boris Gudenuf who understood others questioning and gave us a comparison).
The point is that the suggestion of Sassanians as a separated civ from Achamenids is a different thing to say "this is the same as others people want for India and China". To sustain that claim the existence of changes between both Persian dynasties make sense only under the selection of criteria that of course would be subjetive and arbitrary but they are a necessary commitment. The pure change along the history of a civ* is not enough since we can extrapolate it to be the same as China and India it could be aso be extrapolate to be the case for different English dynasties or French regimens (and I am not talking about Britons or Gauls).

My own criteria was presented with comparisons between Persian dynasties and these to the actual regular suggestion for India and China from people in the Forum (also what we see in Reddit and Steam forum). Most people are not asking for separated Han, Song and Ming civs neither are asking for separated Maurya, Gupta and Pala dynasties. The actual suggestion like Jurchen or Tamil are not restricted to one Chinese or Indian dynasty they were their own thing.
Also even if we get another separated Persian civ that one would likely be something more separated from Achaemenids than Sassanians. For the level of detail CIV use both Achaemenids and Sassanians are from the proper region of Persia (not the broader term) both are mostly Classical Era and for practical abstraction both are Zoroastrians. So after all that argumentation of "being distinguible is good enough" have something that is even more different would be a better pick.
Seriously for a person that said...
When evaluating things in the game that we think should be portrayed differently, it’d be more productive to start from “What was the reasoning the devs had?” rather than assume that they’re so inept that they can’t even skim Wikipedia for the basic facts raised here like everyone else
Take your own advice and stop ignoring why devs chose Nader and not Ardashir or Khosrow for a second Persian leader.
 
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The very first thing I clarified from my post is that any selection of what a civ is in-game is arbitrary and subjetive. So say thinks like "we can do with Persia the same that China and India" is not just arbitrary but also vague since you are not giving some clear comparison (seriously, was @Boris Gudenuf who understood others questioning and gave us a comparison).
Everything Boris has stated in this thread lines up exactly with what I've said. I can't parse your point here.
The point is that if you wanna turn the suggestion of Sassanians as a separated civ from Achamenids that is a think different to say "this is the same as others people want for India and China" and it is not. To sustain that claim the existence of changes between both Persian dynasties make sense only under the selection of criteria that of course would be subjetive and arbitrary but there are a necessary commitment. The pure change along the history of a civ* is not enough since like you can extrapolate it to be the same as China and India it could be aso be extrapolate to be the case for different English dynasties or French regimens (and I am not talking about Britons or Gauls).
Focus on what I've actually said. I NEVER said separating the Sassanians and Achaemenids is the same as "deblobbing" India or China. That is an entirely separate discussion, and in addressing that topic, I've not once brought up the Sassanians. Stop trying to use strawman arguments.

You also keep using the word "Dynasty" to downplay the difference between Sassanians and Achaemenids. You realize that Mughals and Chola and Maurya are all "dynasties" too right? "Dynasty" doesn't say anything about the degree of difference from the previous or next rulers.
My own criteria was presented with comparisons between Persian dynasties and these to the actual regular suggestion for India and China from people in the Forum (also what we see in Reddit and Steam forum). Most people are not asking for separated Han, Song and Ming civs neither are asking for separated Maurya, Gupta and Pala dynasties. The actual suggestion like Jurchen or Tamil are not restricted to one Chinese or Indian dynasty they were their own thing.
Also even if we get another separated Persian civ that one would likely be something more separated from Achaemenids than Sassanians. For the level of detail CIV use both Achaemenids and Sassanians are from the proper region of Persia (not the broader term) both are mostly Classical Era and for practical abstraction both are Zoroastrians. So after all that argumentation of "being distinguible is gough enough" have something that is even more different would be a better pick.
"more likely" is purely your guess.
Seriously for a people that said...

Take your own advice and stop ignoring why devs chose Nader and not Ardashir or Khosrow for a second Persian leader.
It's pretty weird that you keep digging up out-of-context quotes from other threads about entirely different discussions solely to attack me. Second time you've done it in this thread. It makes me feel like you're always engaging with me an axe to grind rather than to have a discussion. I recommend you find something more productive to fixate on and to stop taking forum posts about videogames so personally. If you can't do that, then just use the forum's ignore function so you don't see my posts.

The quote you've chosen to try to "zing me" with makes zero sense (because it's completely out-of-context and has nothing to do with the topic at hand). I haven't questioned or attacked the devs for having Nader Shah in the game once. I simply stated my preference which is what this entire thread was about.
 
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Focus on what I've actually said. I NEVER said separating the Sassanians and Achaemenids is the same as "deblobbing" India or China. That is an entirely separate discussion, and in addressing that topic, I've not once brought up the Sassanians.
"More likely" is everybody guess, right?
You also keep using the word "Dynasty" to downplay the difference between Sassanians and Achaemenids. You realize that Mughals and Chola and Maurya are all "dynasties" too right? "Dynasty" doesn't say anything about the degree of difference from the previous or next rulers.
Do you realize that I am not proposing to have Chola and Maurya?
I clearly (in both posts) clarified why I prefer to use broader groups like Jurchen or Tamil over more specific entities.
It's pretty weird that you keep digging up out-of-context quotes from other threads about entirely different discussions solely to attack me. Second time you've done it in this thread. It makes me feel like you're always engaging with me an axe to grind rather than to have a discussion. I recommend you find something more productive to fixate on, and if you can't do that, then just use the forum's ignore function so you don't see my posts.

The quote you've chosen makes zero sense here, which clearly shows your desire to just find something to dig at me with. I haven't questioned or attacked the choice of the devs to have Nader Shah in the game once. I simply stated my preference.
Again....
1- You want Sassanians as their own civ. > 100% OK and respectable. I did not replied to you original suggestion and even when I replied to later post I clarified that any selection was OK.
2- Other people questioned why Sassanians, then you justified different Persian Empires* as their own civs (to not "downplay" with dynasty) to be like the possible separated civs from India and China > I replied at this argument because without context, scale and comparison there would be always some difference to pull out civs from almost anything.
3- These comparative context explain why more people find not enough differeces between Achaemenids and Sassanians to be different civs specially having limited number of slots and having more unique options just in the area in/around Iran. Firaxis itself took this kind of aproach when Nader Sha was selected. > I find quite ironic (as clarified since the first post) that you fail to understand this point just after call out others people's opinions "indignat" assuming that those replies implied Firaxis devs to be "stupid" and "inpet".

Each and every of my post have reasons, points and even clarifications, if you feel any kind of animosity that is on your part.
Then I would not futher replay to you to not make you feel attacked.
 
Just an aside here, but just to note that intellectually, France identifies far more with Rome than Gaul. As in, regional museums in France (at least, 30 years ago when I was last there) which have artifacts from the Classical Era, identify even obvious Gallic material as 'Roman' if there is any connection, no matter how tenuous, with the Roman province of Gaul or the Roman Empire in general.
Yup! But you also have factions within French culture that choose to identify and promote a pre-Roman identity. Examples of this could be seen in the celebration of Vercingetorix as a culture hero, Asterix and Obelix, the half-remembered pieces of Druidism and Celtic religion forming the seed for new age spiritual movements, etc. no culture is a monolith.
 
Again....
1- You want Sassanians as their own civ. > 100% OK and respectable. I did not replied to you original suggestion and even when I replied to later post I clarified that any selection was OK.
Great. Whether it's "100% OK and respectable" to you is irrelevant. I don't need your approval for my opinions.
2- Other people questioned why Sassanians, then you justified different Persian Empires* as their own civs (to not "downplay" with dynasty) to be like the possible separated civs from India and China > I replied at this argument because without context, scale and comparison there would be always some difference to pull out civs from almost anything.
And I articulated why I disagreed with that viewpoint many times.
3- These comparative context explain why more people find not enough differeces between Achaemenids and Sassanians to be different civs specially having limited number of slots and having more unique options just in the area in/around Iran.
And I countered all of those points about differences very simply, as did Boris, and you never actually addressed any of those facts. You let the conversation drop, then returned to attack me out of context.

I don't care about limited slots and I don't care about filling out regions of a TSL map I never use. I posted what I want to see, not what I think is likely to happen. The thread title is "civs you'd like to see" - not "civs you think Firaxis will include to satisfy everyone's different metrics of adequate geographic representation."
Firaxis itself took this kind of aproach when Nader Sha was selected. > I find quite ironic (as clarified since the first post) that you fail to understand this point just after call out others people's opinions "indignat" assuming that those replies implied Firaxis devs to be "stupid" and "inpet".
Firaxis's approach has nothing to do what was said in this thread. Their approach certainly doesn't mirror the strange rationalizations we see posted as ideas here. I didn't call anyone "indignat" or say any of that in this thread, and I've said absolutely nothing about Firaxis. Again, the 3rd time you're trying to find quotes out of context that make zero sense. You're just trying to shoehorn something in.
Each and every of my post have reasons, points and even clarifications, if you feel any kind of animosity that is on your part.
If my opinion is so "100% OK and respectable" and if there's no animosity on your part, then why are you spending so much time trying to prove why my opinion is incorrect and try to paint an inaccurate picture by digging up my quotes from other threads about other topics?
 
Yup! But you also have factions within French culture that choose to identify and promote a pre-Roman identity. Examples of this could be seen in the celebration of Vercingetorix as a culture hero, Asterix and Obelix, the half-remembered pieces of Druidism and Celtic religion forming the seed for new age spiritual movements, etc. no culture is a monolith.
As stated, cultural effects and affectations tend to be both vertical and horizontal: French Culture in all its aspects is not the same in Normandy as in Paris, nor in Upper Class Paris as in back alley Marseilles. Also, (and I left this out in my original post ) culture has a very distinct Time Component: cultures and cultural motifs are almost always in a state of flux and when one talks about "French (or any other group) Culture" you really should add a Time Stamp: The French not only were never a completely homogenous group, the French of 1848 or 1939 were not identifying themselves in quite the same way as they do today or did in 1714.

But to circle back to the original discussion, wherever it is now, the real question is were the cultural changes/differences in, say, India, China, or Persia different enough between 200 BCE and 1200 CE that they produce distinctively different social, civic, religious, political, military, etc 'cultures' that therefore demand separate inclusion or representation in some way in the game.

I'm not going to argue one way or the other. Much as I'd prefer to play a culture or Civ from a single Time Stamped set of source material, Humankind has rather soured me on playing 'successive' groups/factions, which too often result in Brand New factions at intervals with No in-game relationship between them. And relating the actual influences that produced distinctive differences to in-game actions and events is simply too complex and subject to unanswerable What If? type questions to be possible unless some unsung Game Design/programming genius comes up with some Entirely New way of representing the trends, developments, changes and outright Random Actions that influenced the changes in 'culture'.
 
And I articulated why I disagreed with that viewpoint many times.
And everyone in this debate has articulated why they disagree - if not all in totality, at least in part - with your viewpoints. But you feel your views are objectively correct, and are getting obviously flustered at people not being convinced. This isn't the first discussion where you've shown this tenor of conduct.
 
And everyone in this debate has articulated why they disagree - if not all in totality, at least in part - with your viewpoints. But you feel your views are objectively correct, and are getting obviously flustered at people not being convinced. This isn't the first discussion where you've shown this tenor of conduct.
Not getting flustered at all, but it seems like you are. What’s wrong with someone disagreeing with me and then responding to that? :confused:
 
Not getting flustered at all, but it seems like you are. What’s wrong with someone disagreeing with me and then responding to that? :confused:
No, I'm not flustered, but my point is missed.
 
As stated, cultural effects and affectations tend to be both vertical and horizontal: French Culture in all its aspects is not the same in Normandy as in Paris, nor in Upper Class Paris as in back alley Marseilles. Also, (and I left this out in my original post ) culture has a very distinct Time Component: cultures and cultural motifs are almost always in a state of flux and when one talks about "French (or any other group) Culture" you really should add a Time Stamp: The French not only were never a completely homogenous group, the French of 1848 or 1939 were not identifying themselves in quite the same way as they do today or did in 1714.

But to circle back to the original discussion, wherever it is now, the real question is were the cultural changes/differences in, say, India, China, or Persia different enough between 200 BCE and 1200 CE that they produce distinctively different social, civic, religious, political, military, etc 'cultures' that therefore demand separate inclusion or representation in some way in the game.

I'm not going to argue one way or the other. Much as I'd prefer to play a culture or Civ from a single Time Stamped set of source material, Humankind has rather soured me on playing 'successive' groups/factions, which too often result in Brand New factions at intervals with No in-game relationship between them. And relating the actual influences that produced distinctive differences to in-game actions and events is simply too complex and subject to unanswerable What If? type questions to be possible unless some unsung Game Design/programming genius comes up with some Entirely New way of representing the trends, developments, changes and outright Random Actions that influenced the changes in 'culture'.
In terms of characterization CIV have an advantage over Humankind and Millennia, games that in this matter try to distance themselves from CIV model. Millennia's National Spirits change with the eras but seem to be pretty straigh foward in their usefulness, putting the characterization in the selection of Eras and National Spirits while the significance of "civs" identity is reduced to a minimum. Humankind's idea of changing cultures suffers from a problem of traceability, still this problem is not just because the changing cultures system itself, the problem was grossly exacerbated by the random/customizable avatars with a generic visual design that make you struggle to remember who is who, also the hurry to get the usefull culture options before others players. I am of the idea that the model of Humankind should use a set of fixed archetypes as avatars to facilitate the engaging between players.
Meanwhile ARA is the game that seems to not be afraid (or dont want to try something different) to use historical figures as leaders like CIV do, even their art style is closer to CIV than the others.

Now these leaders are already an aspect that allows to add unique elements with each one, being the easier way to provide different flavors for the same civ. Lets be real, a good civ design is not the one limited to an era neither the one that cover multiple eras, both approach could be successful or fail as well. And after all CIV6's alternate, multi-civ and persona leader variants is clear that Firaxis would not drop the leaders figure as the image of CIV and a tool to provide variations to the same civs.
 
In terms of characterization CIV have an advantage over Humankind and Millennia, games that in this matter try to distance themselves from CIV model. Millennia's National Spirits change with the eras but seem to be pretty straigh foward in their usefulness, putting the characterization in the selection of Eras and National Spirits while the significance of "civs" identity is reduced to a minimum. Humankind's idea of changing cultures suffers from a problem of traceability, still this problem is not just because the changing cultures system itself, the problem was grossly exacerbated by the random/customizable avatars with a generic visual design that make you struggle to remember who is who, also the hurry to get the usefull culture options before others players. I am of the idea that the model of Humankind should use a set of fixed archetypes as avatars to facilitate the engaging between players.
Meanwhile ARA is the game that seems to not be afraid (or dont want to try something different) to use historical figures as leaders like CIV do, even their art style is closer to CIV than the others.

Now these leaders are already an aspect that allows to add unique elements with each one, being the easier way to provide different flavors for the same civ. Lets be real, a good civ design is not the one limited to an era neither the one that cover multiple eras, both approach could be successful or fail as well. And after all CIV6's alternate, multi-civ and persona leader variants is clear that Firaxis would not drop the leaders figure as the image of CIV and a tool to provide variations to the same civs.

The key lies in the gamer's Identification with the Civ/Faction , and in this Civ has the 'high ground' because one of the very few Built In From Birth aspects of humans is that as soon as a baby's eyes can focus, they are drawn to a Human Face (original data courtesy of Dr. Smith and his psych perception experiments back in the 1950s and 60s), so having actual Human Faces connected to the Civ to focus on gives Civ a huge advantage over artificial 'avatars' or generic factions. - And by the way, I would not use the term 'Leader' for ARA's selection of Faces: they are better characterized as Icons as they include a large percentage (even more so than Civ!) of people who were never leaders of the group at all. How well they work to provide Identification with the faction/civ remains to be seen.

My only quibble, and given the inherent limitations of the fully-animated, voice-modeled Leader identifier that's all it is, is that, at least for me, Identification is reduced considerably by having a Leader from a completely different version of the Civ: to me, at least, there is a disconnect between Nader Shah and Immortals or between Catherine (or any pre-revolution French Leader) and the Garde Imperiale. But that's just me and my perception problem: i doesn't make it any more difficult to remember which Civ I am playing as or against in a game, unlike Humankind's generic avatars and complete Civ make-over every Era, which bothered me far more than I ever expected it to.
 
My only quibble, and given the inherent limitations of the fully-animated, voice-modeled Leader identifier that's all it is, is that, at least for me, Identification is reduced considerably by having a Leader from a completely different version of the Civ: to me, at least, there is a disconnect between Nader Shah and Immortals or between Catherine (or any pre-revolution French Leader) and the Garde Imperiale. But that's just me and my perception problem: i doesn't make it any more difficult to remember which Civ I am playing as or against in a game, unlike Humankind's generic avatars and complete Civ make-over every Era, which bothered me far more than I ever expected it to.
With some careful consideration of the leader this can be circumvented in some cases.

I listened to a podcast interview with an Indian history scholar on civ’s portrayal of India, and she had some interesting things to say on the choice of Gandhi as leader. She said it worked rather well for her, because Gandhi’s political project, dress, and manner was anti-modern as much as it was anti-western. This places his persona outside of secular time in a way that is particularly useful for Civilization.

Perhaps a distinct sense of timelessness is overlooked as a special quality that makes a good civ leader?
 
With some careful consideration of the leader this can be circumvented in some cases.

I listened to a podcast interview with an Indian history scholar on civ’s portrayal of India, and she had some interesting things to say on the choice of Gandhi as leader. She said it worked rather well for her, because Gandhi’s political project, dress, and manner was anti-modern as much as it was anti-western. This places his persona outside of secular time in a way that is particularly useful for Civilization.

Perhaps a distinct sense of timelessness is overlooked as a special quality that makes a good civ leader?

Which, I would think, is another argument against purely 'realistic' Leaders as characterizations of the Civ. People like Gandhi or Jeanne d'Arc might be much more identifiable with the Civs in question on a much broader scale than a strictly historical Leader who is tied to a specific time and cultural version of the Civ.
 
If there really is a Civ VII here are my selections
Mexico
Argentina
Venezuela
Lebanon
Ireland
Italy
Romania
asking for random civilisations is absurd because civilisations as well as leaders are products of history. instead, why not talk to me about the social dynamics that shape governments and peoples? I have a topic about this!
 
asking for random civilisations is absurd because civilisations as well as leaders are products of history. instead, why not talk to me about the social dynamics that shape governments and peoples? I have a topic about this!
Dawg, how many times do i have to tell you that at least half the people here wouldn’t buy a Civilization series game if it didn’t have civs and/or leaders
 
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