(8-05) 4UC Aztec

Status
Not open for further replies.

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
10,823
Location
Alberta, Canada
This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Aztec civilization.

Spoiler Current kit :

BasedAztec.png


Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

1718871889309.png


Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UM - Otomi (replaces Warrior):
Available at Agriculture​
40 :c5production: Production cost​
10 :c5strength: CS
2 :c5moves: Movement​
Woodsman​
Survivalism I​
Brute Strength (+40% vs Barbarians; Kept on upgrade)​

UW - Huey Teocalli (replaces Grand Temple)
Available at Theology
does not require Temple
starts a :c5goldenage: Golden Age on on Construction
+6 :c5faith: Faith and +3:c5food: Food (up from +6 :c5faith: Faith only)
+2 :c5faith: Faith and +1 :c5gold: Gold, and +2 :c5food: Food to all Barracks and Temples
+2:c5food: to Lakes
1 :greatwork: Great Work of Music Slot​
-1:c5unhappy: unhappiness from Religious Unrest​
Gain 1 :c5citizen: Population instantly when a :c5goldenage:Golden Age Begins
Gain 10 :c5faith: Faith and :c5gold: Gold whenever you kill an enemy unit during a Golden Age, scaling with Era
:c5production: Production cost scales with number of Cities​

UU change:
Jaguars moved to Unique Longswordsman​
Unlocked at Steel
160 :c5production:
Does not require Iron
23:c5strength: CS
2 :c5moves: Movement​
"Discipline"​
"25 HP heal on Kill"
"War Captives" (+30% :c5strength: Combat Strength vs units with 50 HP or less)​

UB Change
Floating Garden moved to Egypt as Nilometer
New UB - Telpochcalli
Unlocked at Writing
150:c5production:
1:c5gold:Maintenance
+2 :c5science: Science​
+1 :c5science: Science for every 4:c5citizen: Population in City
-1:c5unhappy: Unhappiness from Distress​
1 Specialist in the city does not generate :c5unhappy: Urbanization​
Gains +1:c5food:Food, +1 :c5production: Production, and +2 XP to units trained in this city whenever you enter a :c5goldenage:Golden Age.
Bonus stacks up to 10 times (max of +10:c5food:/:c5production: and +20 XP)​
Bonus is not retroactive (ie. GAs triggered before the Telpochcalli is built are not counted)​

Civilization
remove Jungle/Forest start bias
 
Last edited:
Justification for changes and 4UC additions:

Hoo boy this is a big one. I wanted to get Aztecs down first because the changes for them are the biggest and possibly the most controversial.

changing the base VP component from Floating Garden to Telpochcalli:
First off, Floating garden is not being removed entirely. 4UC moves the building to Egypt and renames it to Nilometer. The +10% :c5food: and +1:c5food: to rivers are much more thematically suitable to Egypt and the Nile than to Aztecs and their historical relationship to lakes. Egypt needs more than an extra +20% to wonder construction for the Golden Age bonus to feel like more than just a tacked-on afterthought.
In recompense for losing the Floating Garden, Aztecs needed something that kept their golden age, food and large population bonuses intact. The Telpochcalli accomplishes this. Instead of a % modifier, the Telpochcalli gains permanent stacking yields. Like the Floating Garden it also has a powerful pop scaler. Here, the pop scaler is an intentional reference to the later Public school, since the Telpochcalli are some of the first public schools we know of.

Changing the unique warrior from Jaguar to Otomi
The Otomi takes over for the Jaguar as the unique warrior for Aztecs. In most respects this is a flavor and historicity change, but it does also have balance implications.
Compared to the Jaguar, the Otomi does not have healing on kills or an extra 33% in woods. However, it does have Survivalism I (25% defense and +5 healing outside friendly lands) and a supercharged anti-barbarian bonus (+40% vs the base 25%). The enhanced barbarian bonus also stays on upgrade.
Otomi addresses some problems with the historicity and how inconsistent Jaguars can be on certain starts.
First, the Jaguar was an elite warrior society from the 15th century, it was not ancient. The Jaguar is using a Macahuitl, which was actually a very sophisticated piece of technology that was not developed by Mesoamericans until at least the 10th century. The Otomi are an ethnic group that has a much longer history in the area, predating the arrival of the Mexica by thousands of years. The Triple-Alliance had a military society named after the Otomi, in a fashion similar to the Egyptian Medjay or the French Zouaves. This callback to an older people that still has ties to the Aztec Empire allows us to stretch back into much earlier Mesoamerican history.

From a gameplay perspective, the Jaguar is very inconsistent. In woods, they get +10% defense and +33% CS, making them swingy based on the terrain they are in. If you manage to get kills they never have to stop to heal, but if you are put on the defensive against a larger barbarian force then the healing bonus can fall flat. The Otomi has defense and healing that are far more reliable in any given situation, at the cost of not being as powerful in ideal conditions.
The Jaguar creates an awkward disincentive for upgrading into spearman as it is. They are considerably cheaper than spears at 40%:c5production:, and with 10:c5strength: plus a 33% bonus vs barbarians, they are not only stronger vs barbarians than spearmen in rough terrain, they are also far more cost efficient. If you have a start with a lot of open space for barbs to spawn in, upgrading to spearmen can hurt you. The new Otomi fixes this by making its special Barbarian bonus stay on upgrade. Now Spearmen keep that extra +40% bonus, along with all the other unique promotions, and it doesn't feel bad to upgrade anymore.

Huey Teocalli
The unique grand temple doubles down on Aztecs' existing bonuses for large population cities and religion from warfare. During Golden ages the Huey Teocalli supercharges the yields from your UA and adds an entire population to your city. It also triggers a golden age on construction, giving Aztecs a guaranteed golden age to kickstart their game if you've had a rough start.

New Jaguar Longsword
This is the most logical place to place a macahuitl-wielding Jaguar, and with the Maori Warrior recently moved to become a scout, the slot for a Iron-free longsword has opened up.
Jaguars are entirely focused on getting that last hit; they get a large bonus against badly wounded units and have their old 25 HP heal on kill. With the addition of 2 medieval components, the Aztecs have a more consistent power curve than their existing super-early bonuses.
 
Last edited:
I don't like there being two "perma yield/XP on golden age" triggers on different buildings.

Wait you have an outdated text description there, that's why.
 
Last edited:
Oops. That was a typo. Only Telpochcalli has bonus yields/XP on GA.
Fixed OP
 
It literally states that it is only in this exact city. It was in second spoiler though, not the third one.
1717495961699.png
 
Squads are your friend:)
There’s 43 different civs, they’re going to have a wide mixture of unitcombat lines
 
That would pile it up with Maya and it’s meant to act more like a reskin of the jaguar.
I’m mainly concerned about UUs that are on the same combat line AND upgrade into each other. That’s an actual problem.
 
Yeah there's no problem with both of them upgrading into the same thing, since they won't have both unique promotions at the same time.
 
Seems a little awkward to have GAs from peace deals in the UA but then a unit-kill bonus only during GAs in the NW. I think it pushes you to start a new war as soon as you end one, which will eventually lead to war weariness problems. Is that intended?
 
Don't ask questions, just consume neighbour and then get excited for next neighbour.
(yes it is intended. Warfare was a constant ongoing state of affairs for Aztec cultural life.)
 
Last edited:
I've been testing their new kit (prince difficulty) and they are extremely strong. Their UA allows them to buy early military unit which level up on barbs, then you can take newly founded cities quit easily with the mass of early Otomi->Spearmen. This, in turn, gives you GAs which make you cities very strong thanks to the UB (+1 food/prod each time). Essentially, it encourage you to bully your neighbors by repeatedly taking their weakest cities then having a favorable peace deal.
 
I think it pushes you to start a new war as soon as you end one, which will eventually lead to war weariness problems.
Why? Every war is independent for war weariness.
 
I don't remember the war weariness details, I just thought that there was some recovery mechanic that only happened if you weren't currently at war. So if you peace out you'll immediately bounce back to full happiness and then start picking up weariness from your new opponent?

After reminding myself of the new mechanics from this passed proposal,
  • war weariness unhappiness picks the worst war weariness you have with all other players
  • war weariness per player "cools down" as long as you're at peace with that player
  • "heats up" as long as you're at war with them and peace is an option
So I take back what I said, war weariness (unhappiness) would be no worse that if you were attacking one civ, peacing out after getting your war score threshold, then letting tensions ease a bit before going back in.
 
Last edited:
Overall grade: A-
The Aztecs have a fun game plan and are one of the most interesting civs from a design perspective, with how their UA incentivizes short wars against weak opponents. There are lots of ways to synergize and compliment this playstyle, and I am very happy with how 4UC augments it further.

Aztecs - Otomi
Theme - A. This is an absolute slam dunk as far as I'm concerned. The current placement of the Jaguar is anachronistic in a way that feels like wilfull misinformation. The Mexica didn't even arrive into the Altiplano until the 12th century. The Otomi are named after a people who were in the area for thousands of years prior to that, but still exist within the Mexica historical record as both a military society and a polity within the empire.
Mechanics - B. The Otomi is taking over the base VP jaguar slot and so the fact they don't do anything too different is intended. Fully DLL integrated, of course. retaining the anti-barb bonus after upgrade is kind of neat though.
Uniqueness - B. The only unique Warrior, and a uniquely powerful early game tool.

Aztecs - Telpochcalli
Theme - A. The Telpochcalli is a very interesting aspect of Aztec culture that I have wanted to get in the game. One of the earliest examples of a public school in history.
Mechanics - B. Stacking yields and XP on golden age start is a perfect combination with the Aztecs' unique GA trigger from wars.
Uniqueness - B. As a unique barracks it is stacked with Ikanda. If we wanted, we could move it to Library and it would be more unique. Might even fit the theme better.

Aztecs - New Jaguar
Theme - B. Much improved compared to its old position as a warrior
Mechanics - B. a SR-free Last hit machine. Fills the old SR-free niche of the Maori warrior, but much better because it's on a militaristic civ that is much more focused on bottom tech and much more likely to mass-produce them. DLL free, which is nice.
Uniqueness - B. Longsword replacement is ok, there are 2 others with Samurai and Chewa. It is uniquely spammable in a safe way, because the tercio it upgrades into also has no SR requirement.

Aztecs - Huey Teocalli
Theme - B. A unique religious building doesn't feel like a particularly deep or interesting cut, but it is still the only unique Grand Temple. The religion of the Aztecs is prominent with their UA giving faith on kills, so it is consistent.
Mechanics - B. The enhanced yields on kills during Golden Age reinforce that you need to keep warring. more more more. Win wars as fast as possible and then start new wars. The yields reward for golden ages is is a good way to communicate that intended playstyle through the mechanics.
Uniqueness - B. No other Grand Temple UB in the game. While there are uniques that do similar things there is nothing that does it quite like the Huey Teocalli. The uniqueness has been somewhat marred by the addition of the Teocalli as a faith building in the main mod, but it's still ok in that respect. It communicates a clear playstyle and intent which is all you could want from a UNW.
 
I like Telpochcalli as a Library. It:
- unstacks the UB off of Barracks
- breaks up their tech path
- emphasizes it as one of the first public schools in the world
- emphasizes that even then, the school was in a large part preparing children for war.
 
I like the library idea. It slows down the very strong component of the Telpochcalli. This, or drop production.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom