(8-07) 4UC Brazil

[gabrielsfarias]

For UB ideas:

• a standalone faith purchased building related to the Jesuits, with bonuses related to owning and acquiring more forest/jungle tiles, as the Jesuits were both important to the assimilation of natives and an anti-slavery voice during Colonial Brazil.
• an unique research lab focused on food-related bonuses as its extras, which would represent what enabled Brazil to change from a major food importer to a major food exporter in the last decades.

I don't know about the faith building (would it be a unique Shrine/Temple?), but that unique research lab is Embrapa, what made it possible for the lands in midwest to be cultivated, and seeds that could resist the weather in other regions. Spot on.

 

[MarcosQuadros]

It was just the name that "sticked". It was important for Portugal to get this new dye in the beginning but it faded away quickly. What I don't like about it isn't the name or time period, it's it gives a bunch of different yields, and this was just a product that was taken to Portugal, nothing else. I could see it even being a UI for Portugal, since all the benefits were for them. I prefer the yerba mate, even if it screams "south" along with a barbecue house UB.

I could swear I played with a Bandeirantes that gave GAP on discovering at some point, but I stand corrected.
The point is, they generated no Science or Culture, they generated slaves and Gold.

Probably Firaxis only knew Rio for Carnaval, and made the civ around that. Can't blame them for that if that's what marketed over seas, but I'd really love to play with a more accurate, real version of my country.

there is a sambodrome in Porto Alegre, the capital from rio grande do sul (the bbq state) and carnaval itself is something very important for the afro brazilian community from the city
saying that carnaval is just something from Rio and exaggerated by the governmet to generate tourism is kinda...

having one of Brazil components from the kit representing in some form the 3 way cultural mixture of indigenous, african and european celebratory traditions seems very important for the idendity of the kit, for me at least

 

[gabrielsfarias]

there is a sambodrome in Porto Alegre, the capital from rio grande do sul (the bbq state) and carnaval itself is something very important for the afro brazilian community from the city
saying that carnaval is just something from Rio and exaggerated by the governmet to generate tourism is kinda...

having one of Brazil components from the kit representing in some form the 3 way cultural mixture of indigenous, african and european celebratory traditions seems very important for the idendity of the kit, for me at least

Given that carnival isn't unique to brasil, wasn't invented here, and is celebrated since antiquity times, I don't see how it is a mix of those cultures. My city also has a sambadrome, and the only things people care about here is to get drunk and bang everything that moves. The fact it's linked to WLTKD is cherry on top of incongruences. I really doubt any Carnival outside of Rio gets marketed besides word of mouth, and the fact that there is a entire business around getting away from it (hotels, secluded places overall and places where it isn't a thing) tells me it isn't a unanimity. I'd rather have a civ that shows what is good and true here than something that says everyone is happy for this period of time, get a load of money and make other civs follow this culture.

Brazil is a extremely conservative religious country outside of big metropolis. I'd love to see this side represented beyond what Globo shows.

 

[gabrielsfarias]

For UB ideas:

• a standalone faith purchased building related to the Jesuits, with bonuses related to owning and acquiring more forest/jungle tiles, as the Jesuits were both important to the assimilation of natives and an anti-slavery voice during Colonial Brazil.
• an unique research lab focused on food-related bonuses as its extras, which would represent what enabled Brazil to change from a major food importer to a major food exporter in the last decades.

I had these ideas to replace the Sambadrome (changes are underlined, unchanged is ommited):

Current:

New:
Embrapa (replaces Agribusiness)
No horse requirement
+2 Science and Gold from Farms
+2 Production from Pastures

Current:

New:
Redução:
Nearby Brazilwood Camp: +3 Gold, +3 Faith

 

[Rekk]

Some ideas I came up with for bandeirantes as an early commando:

- Can build improvements on unimproved tiles adjacent to your territory; when completed, steal the tile

- after pillaging a tile adjacent to your territory, steal it

 

[gabrielsfarias]

Some ideas I came up with for bandeirantes as an early commando:

At the time the Bandeirante is available isn't the city already working the limit radius? Unless you're still founding cities by that point, of course.

 

[Legen]

I had these ideas to replace the Sambadrome (changes are underlined, unchanged is ommited):

Current:
View attachment 694231

New:
Embrapa (replaces Agribusiness)
No horse requirement
+2 Science and Gold from Farms
+2 Production from Pastures

Current:
View attachment 694233

New:
Redução:
Nearby Brazilwood Camp: +3 Gold, +3 Faith

I think both ideas come too early relative to their historical counterparts; the Redução (or just Jesuit mission) would historically be around early Renaissance Era, while the Embrapa would be at late Atomic Era. The latter can be justified to come earlier at Modern Era as a Research Lab because that's when the base building that Embrapa represents is unlocked (and Atomic Era being way too late for an UB), but I don't think the same rationale can be applied to the former.

The idea of a standalone faith purchase building is similar to the Monastery from Fealty's opener; it's an extra building that doesn't replace anything and must be bought with faith. That's the only way I can see of having a faith-related building at Renaissance.

Also note that pineappledan's complaint about the Sambadrome from 34UC is that it is a boring stat stick, among other things. Whatever alternative gets to be counterpropose should ideally be more interesting that just a few more yields than the base building.

 

[Rekk]

At the time the Bandeirante is available isn't the city already working the limit radius? Unless you're still founding cities by that point, of course.

I don't think cities have a full 3rd ring by late renaissance, no, especially in satellite cities. Maybe Brazil as it currently is as a high Culture civ, although it sounds like you want to move away from that, anyway?

Also, land grab is more important than just working radius. It can net you luxuries and strategics, for example, or gain you buffer territory during wars.

 

[pineappledan]

Some ideas I came up with for bandeirantes as an early commando:

Delightfully devilish, Seymour. But the Bandeirantes seems to be the 1 component people seem actually okay with

Embrapa (replaces Agribusiness)
No horse requirement
+2 Science and Gold from Farms
+2 Production from Pastures

Embrapa could be a unique research lab, maybe? That seems interesting.

I really don’t like the idea of making Brazil a religious civ. You have to be very careful with adding new religious civs because too many of them make the game less interesting and fun.

The reducciones make me want to add a new Paraguay/guarani civ rather than add it to Brazil.

 

[gabrielsfarias]

I think both ideas come too early relative to their historical counterparts; the Redução (or just Jesuit mission) would historically be around early Renaissance Era, while the Embrapa would be at late Atomic Era. The latter can be justified to come earlier at Modern Era as a Research Lab because that's when the base building that Embrapa represents is unlocked (and Atomic Era being way too late for an UB), but I don't think the same rationale can be applied to the former.

The Bandeirantes came after/at the same time the jesuit missions, yet they're at Medieval. If we're going for realism, they also should come at Renaissance. The Temple is the last religious building, how to represent this in-game if the country didn't exist yet?

On Embrapa: I was on the fence about it replacing Agribusiness or Reserach Lab, because in the end, it is a research lab that works glued hand to hand with the country's agribusiness. I think it's essential it has a impact on Farms, Pastures and Science, but what it could replace I don't see that big of a difference. Agribusiness was just easier to mess around with.

Embrapa could be a unique research lab, maybe? That seems interesting.

I really don’t like the idea of making Brazil a religious civ. You have to be very careful with adding new religious civs because too many of them make the game less interesting and fun.

I think so. Agribusiness was more about cultivanting the land and animals, which Embrapa does. The way Research Lab appears it seems more about pure science stuff, like genetics and sci-fi, but thinking about it I don't see too much of a difference for in-game purposes. Probably can go where it makes the gameplay better.

On religion, Brazil is a extremely religious country. Like, middle east - catholic/evangelical version - religious level. I get not wanting it to be like Byzantium but it need to have some level of religion gameplay if we're going to represent the country in a meaningful way, either through a building, or UA. Even the Carnaval have strong religious contexts on cities outside of the big metropolitan centers. I'm not saying to make the civ completely reliant on founding a religion, but it should have some way to benefit from having or sharing a religion, and even better, lots of religions (built-in Syncretism) without having to shape it's own. I'm thinking about some ways to change the UA without cutting the Carnaval.

 

[Rekk]

The Bandeirantes came after/at the same time the jesuit missions, yet they're at Medieval. If we're going for realism, they also should come at Renaissance.

Correct, which is why I want them to be an early unique Commando.

Don't use the anachronism of one element to add even more. We should be working to reduce these elements, not making it worse.

It's also pretty weird to have a UU that historically contributed to the destruction of the UB (maybe a UI, given that they specifically existed in the wilderness?).

The Temple is the last religious building, how to represent this in-game if the country didn't exist yet?

I wonder how much interest there would be in a late Unique element. Especially in this case where it's the final building of its "chain".

 

[gabrielsfarias]

Correct, which is why I want them to be an early unique Commando.

Don't use the anachronism of one element to add even more. We should be working to reduce these elements, not making it worse.

It's also pretty weird to have a UU that historically contributed to the destruction of the UB (shouldn't they be a UI, given that they specifically existed in the wilderness?).

Makes sense to me. Replaces the Commando at Rennaissance then.

I'm all for it to be a UI, but can we have it and Brazilwood Camps? Also, the Bandeirantes didn't build them, the jesuits did it, so it's one or another. It being a faith purchase, Monastery-esque is also fine. But indeed it looks weird.

If I were to choose between them, I'd say the Bandeirantes as in my proposal. Unless we ditch the Bandeirantes and go with more religion, with the Reduções: in this case, in my rework proposal for the UA, I'd cut or tone down a lot the religion aspect to not make it full religious civ, as @pineappledan said.

 

[pineappledan]

If you make brazil a religious civ that needs to be weighed against every other civ in the 43.

Religious civs have to be able to found or else they are categorically screwed for the entire game. That means they need early and powerful faith generation abilities. That also means that there need to be few enough of them that you don’t create a dichotomy between founder civs and non-founder civs. If you add more religious civs as a total proportion of the roster you make it far more likely that you have simply gated all of the religion mechanics behind them and non religious civs are locked out of an entire dimension of the game.

There are 7 religious civs in the game already: Ethiopia, Byzantium, India, Celts, Aztecs, Spain, and Maya. If 4 or more of these civs spawn in on the same game against you, you can kiss your religion goodbye.
There are a further 3 soft founders that have a modest early Faith bonus, but are less than guaranteed a religion: Arabia, Japan, and Mongols. 4UC adds Assyria as a 4th “soft founder” with the Lamassu.

If you add Brazil to this already rather large list of civs I will scream, and then be forced to mod it back out. We simply can’t have this many religious civs.

 

[gabrielsfarias]

If you make brazil a religious civ that needs to be weighed against every other civ in the 43.

Religious civs have to be able to found or else they are categorically screwed for the entire game. That means they need early and powerful faith generation abilities. That also means that there need to be few enough of them that you don’t create a dichotomy between founder civs and non-founder civs. If you add more religious civs as a total proportion of the roster you make it far more likely that you have simply gated all of the religion mechanics behind them and non religious civs are locked out of an entire dimension of the game.

There are 7 religious civs in the game already: Ethiopia, Byzantium, India, Celts, Aztecs, Spain, and Maya. If 4 or more of these civs spawn in on the same game against you, you can kiss your religion goodbye.
There are a further 3 soft founders that have a modest early Faith bonus, but are less than guaranteed a religion: Arabia, Japan, and Mongols. 4UC adds Assyria as a 4th “soft founder” with the Lamassu.

If you add Brazil to this already rather large list of civs I will scream, and then be forced to mod it back out. We simply can’t have this many religious civs.

Ok, I get it. What makes it a religious civ? Having any kind of bonus with faith (regardless of impact)? Which one of the components discussed here until now would put brazil as a religious civ? Or are you talking about changing the UA to have faith related bonus?

As pointed before, having a faith related UI or UB would work against the Bandeirante, historically. So I was thinking in putting something minor in the UA to compensate. I also have ideas for trade and diplomacy Brazil. What is considered enough balance religion wise? Not for being a founder for sure, but for proc off of faith somehow, maybe converting it to gold, like Thrift?

 

[pineappledan]

Any civ with at least +2 per turn per city before classical era is a religious civ in my books.
If you give any additional faith to any component after that era (Egypt's Burial Tomb, for example), it's just flavour. A large amount of Faith given in later eras but not paired with some method to reliably found (like Byzantium) varies so widely based on your ability to found from game to game that it shouldn't exist.

 

[gabrielsfarias]

I came up with these, for now:

New UA - a) WLTKD becomes Carnival, adding -50% Unhapiness from Boredom and Poverty. When Carnival begins, 50% of Tourism converts into Gold and Carnivals extends 20% more time.
This is an upgraded WLTKD, still tapping into Carnival, no Faith involved. Carnival is a good opportunity for people to make money here, and you'll certainly won't be bored if you visit during this time. I'm not sure about extending the duration, but it's there in case you consider tweaking it, or can cut it if this makes it too OP. Still uses Tourism but I did cut Golden Age stuff, because we never had one.
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New UA - b) Doesn't have Unhapiness from Religious Unrest. The majority religion in the city exert doubled pressure to cities connected with trade routes and each religion with 3 or more followers in the city generate 3 Gold, scaling with Era.
Some religion gameplay, without needing to found, but certainly having bonus to it if you manage to do it. In case you want another religion, just take it in some city and start to send trade routes to your other cities, or if you're the founder, it will make it easier to convert other cities by just sending caravans and ships, no need to have faith generation.
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New UA - c) Trade routes to cities with a Diplomat generate double Gold and Diplomats gather information twice as fast if the shared majority religion.
My first try at this mix of trading and Diplomats. I see most of the game cares about spies only and rigging elections, coups, etc, but we don't do that here. This is to show Brazil's soft diplomacy power.

So what you say?

 

[Legen]

The Bandeirantes came after/at the same time the jesuit missions, yet they're at Medieval. If we're going for realism, they also should come at Renaissance.

Correct, which is why I want them to be an early unique Commando.

The issue with the Bandeirantes unlock is that the base unit it replaces, the Explorer, comes one tech column earlier than it should. That's not the Bandeirantes' fault, it's more about the scout line needing some changes to avoid anachronism. I think that's beyond the scope for a 34UC related proposal.

Brazil is a extremely conservative religious country outside of big metropolis. I'd love to see this side represented beyond what Globo shows.

Many civs could be portrayed as religious, but only a few got religion as a dedicated focus in Civ V. For instance, Portugal, from whom the Brazilians inherited their religious zeal, was historically described as a giant convent, with many travelers commenting on how frequently the Portuguese spent their time praying. Yet, the civ is not represented as religious in civ V. Another example is Poland, which is a generalist civ in Civ V, but a religious one in Civ VI. The latter focused on the history behind "king" Jadwiga, who played a pivotal role in converting Poland (and Lithuania) to Christianism.

I also don't think a focused/specialized civ should be strong at too many things at once, or it ends shadowing the generalist civs (e.g. Ethiopia, Poland); if a civ is already well specialized in one or two areas, then it's probably better for it to not do much in the rest. And Brazil is already very focused on culture, with a solid side focus on economy.

But I think we need to get rid of Sambadrome and the whole carnaval thing. That is a one pony trick, publicity stunt by the government that sells the entire country as 1 city for 2 days, as the sole purpose of visiting here. Since the city itself is completely dominated by cartels and militias (including the samba schools), I wouldn't want to be associated with that, even if it's just a game.

The leader personality traits could remain. My only problem is that I look at the full kit, and that represents 1 city, for 2 days a year. You can't design an entire civ around that small time frame.

I'd rather have a civ that shows what is good and true here than something that says everyone is happy for this period of time, get a load of money and make other civs follow this culture.

What about simply renaming the UA and its WLTKD to something related to Pedro II? The current UA can easily represent how he managed to hold together an empire on the verge of collapse, which could have ended in multiple small countries just like what happened to the Spanish colony in the Americas. He was loved by the population, he himself was an intellectual that earned the respect of many great minds of his time, was a patron of the Arts and the empire was prosperous. His rule is sometimes seen as the golden age of Brazil.

Merely renaming the UA to reference him ("Magmanous", "House of Bragança", etc), and rename the "Carnival" (unique WLTKD) back to just "WLTKD", may be enough to make it a proper historical reference, instead of a stereotype. It's not the first time we have an UA be simply about the leader (e.g. Songhai UA as "River Warlord").

 

[Rekk]

The issue with the Bandeirantes unlock is that the base unit it replaces, the Explorer, comes one tech column earlier than it should. That's not the Bandeirantes' fault, it's more about the scout line needing some changes to avoid anachronism. I think that's beyond the scope for a 34UC related proposal.

My proposed abilities fit more on a commando than they do on an explorer, anyway.

Explorers have bonuses for oversea exploration. Commandos don't.

My proposed Bandeirantes don't want to explore overseas, they want to claim territory.

 

[gabrielsfarias]

Well… it is very hard to have 2 UU slots and no combat bonuses.

The issue with the Bandeirantes unlock is that the base unit it replaces, the Explorer, comes one tech column earlier than it should. That's not the Bandeirantes' fault, it's more about the scout line needing some changes to avoid anachronism. I think that's beyond the scope for a 34UC related proposal.

Then I think we can postpone this fix and let the Bandeirante as a unique Explorer for now, and see what can be done after the Scout line get it's fix.

Many civs could be portrayed as religious, but only a few got religion as a dedicated focus in Civ V. For instance, Portugal, from whom the Brazilians inherited their religious zeal, was historically described as a giant convent, with many travelers commenting on how frequently the Portuguese spent their time praying. Yet, the civ is not represented as religious in civ V. Another example is Poland, which is a generalist civ in Civ V, but a religious one in Civ VI. The latter focused on the history behind "king" Jadwiga, who played a pivotal role in converting Poland (and Lithuania) to Christianism.

I also don't think a focused/specialized civ should be strong at too many things at once, or it ends shadowing the generalist civs (e.g. Ethiopia, Poland); if a civ is already well specialized in one or two areas, then it's probably better for it to not do much in the rest. And Brazil is already very focused on culture, with a solid side focus on economy.

I'm not saying Brazil should be another specific religion focused civ. I meant it should have at least a religious component in its kit, whatever it be. All of it's components are suitable for it without making it the sole focus, we just have to find a way for it to not overtake the civ's game play, and make it more like a incidental "plus". I tried it with one of my suggestions in my earlier post in the UA, but it can be literally anything other than military.

What about simply renaming the UA and its WLTKD to something related to Pedro II? The current UA can easily represent how he managed to hold together an empire on the verge of collapse, which could have ended in multiple small countries just like what happened to the Spanish colony in the Americas. He was loved by the population, he himself was an intellectual that earned the respect of many great minds of his time, was a patron of the Arts and the empire was prosperous. His rule is sometimes seen as the golden age of Brazil.

We can focus solely on it's time, but then the civ wouldn't have anything outside of Renaissance. He let the Republic coup happen out of apathy and although all the love the population had for him, he left the country to the will of the Army and Floriano Peixoto. I'd rather have a bunch of Portuguese countries than the mess we have today (don't be fooled, there are at least 5 different countries here, held together by military force).

I have nothing against the name per se, but the fact it's so focused on culture of carnival. We don't get our needs halved during carnival, it is just a spring break on steroids. You could argue that it would be a celebration of culture in small cities, but in fact it's just 4 days to drink to death, make babies and get diseases. I think what you have in mind is Festa Junina, or St. John celebrations, that occur in June and are in fact strong culturally, mainly in the northeast.

Merely renaming the UA to reference him ("Magmanous", "House of Bragança", etc), and rename the "Carnival" (unique WLTKD) back to just "WLTKD", may be enough to make it a proper historical reference, instead of a stereotype. It's not the first time we have an UA be simply about the leader (e.g. Songhai UA as "River Warlord").

This wouldn't change anything, but the carnival in Pedro II's time were probably what outside people imagine when they think about it.

My main goal with these proposals is either to take the focus from carnival (and make it something else entirely, name and all) or focus on WLTKD with lesser bonuses to gold, tourism and faith. In my first idea for the UA I did this, but kept the needs reduction for Boredom and Poverty to reflect the influx of people that come in this time of the year, generating gold and tourism.

 

[pineappledan]

Another community member said that in his own modded games, he moved the on exploration to all recon units in the UA. Then he lowered the yields on bandeirantes.

That's a nice idea; it reduces the incentive not to explore early as Brazil right now.