(8-24a) 4UC Japan - Less Katanas, More Reworks

[Hinin]

Current : See pineappledan's recap of the current 4UC version for Japan here.

Proposal :

- Move a part of the Dojo unique promotion to the UA (return to base Civ V)

UA - Shogunate

+1 Culture and Faith from Defense Buildings. When a Great General or Great Admiral is born, gain 50% progress towards a Great Artist, Writer and Musician in your Capital. Units always fight at full strength when wounded.

- Samurai replaced by Kondei

UU1 - Kondei (replaces Heavy Skirmisher) => art by GPuzzle ; 3d model that can be extracted from Putmalk Sengoku mod (see linked picture) ; I can write the civilopedia article
Unlocked at Physics
175 Production / 300 Faith cost
Requires Horse

17 CS / 17 RCS / 1 Range (+0 / +3 / +0)
5 MP / 2 Vision

Great General II
Kobudo (dummy promotion) - Can fortify and benefit from Terrain Defensive bonuses. Has no Attack malus against Cities and Naval Units. Lost upon upgrade.
Can move after attacking
Skirmisher Doctrine
Cannot melee attack
Attack malus against Naval Units
Attack malus against Cities
No Terrain Defense

- Dojo replaced by Torii

UGPTI - Torii => 3d model by Firaxis, improvement icon by JFD
Can be built by expending a Great Writer / Great Artist / Great Musician
Can be built on Land and Coastal tiles, and not next to another Torii

3 Culture / 3 Faith / 3 Tourism
+1 Culture per Building providing Merchant specialists in the City (Market / Customs House / Bank / Stock Exchange)
+1 Faith per Building providing Engineer specialists in the City (Forge / Workshop / Windmill / Factory / Coaling Station)
+1 Tourism per Building providing Scientist specialists in the City (Library / University / Observatory / Public School / Research Lab)
Has no technology bonus

- Changes to Kabuki Theater : part of the Dojo bonus moved + change to compensate for the Faith gained from the Torii

UB - Kabuki Theater :
- replaces the bonus Culture from internal Trade Routes with "Gain Culture from Experience gained in Combat for Units born in the City" ;
- change the bonus from Great Musician birth to "Gain Production equal to a value increased by the number of Great Works of Music in the Empire".
Formula : Production gained = 75 + 75 x number of GWMusic in Empire.

- No change for the Yamato

Rationale :

The Japanese kit, although well designed, suffers from what I consider a great sin.

Just... so many katanas...

Having been subjected, like many people here, to Japanese pop culture and games like Shogun 2 Total War, I understand the love for swords of the civ 5 and vp devs, but it ends up a bit silly here.

Between Oda Nobunaga (a leader famous for his disregard for traditions and his usage of gunpowder weapons) saluting us with his three kanatas (including a nodachi on his back......), the unique unit being a samurai (term that described such warriors only several centuries later, and within a totally different context) that, of course, uses katanas (and not a spear or a bow, which would have been the usual weapons of the time) and the unique building being a dojo, we are just flooded with stereotypical pop history images of the Japanese warrior when so many other (and more interesting) components have been created by modders throughout the years.

Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do to save Oda Nobunaga (cries in Napoleon), but at least he fills up our "katana quota" for the civ. For the rest, we can try to do a rework that keep the current's civ essence (that of a fighter civ that scales hard throughout the eras thanks to its great people and urbanization) while trying new things meant to provide glimps of the civ's very rich history and culture.

The Dojo is the most powerful (and difficult to balance) part of the Japanese kit, and its most controversial in term of historicity (I would be happy to discuss the subject with you if you want). I prefer to axe it and take its two most impactful elements (the yields from combat experience and the removal of the wound malus from units) and apply them to other part of the kit in simplified and nerfed forms (see the UA and the UB) to leave space for new things.

The Samurai cannot really be saved in its current form (it could perhaps be put as a 3d model officer with a spear, gun or bow next to the 3d models of Ashigaru units, but that's pretty much it), and Japanese martial tradition values archery on horseback the most (culturally and ritualistically). We have the art elements to obtain a good representation of Japanese mounted archers, so let's go with it. In term of gameplay, Quick Study would be too powerful on a survivable skirmisher unit, but Great General II does the job well. For the rest, the goal is to represent the versatility of Japanese warriors by removing all their maluses (so they can attack in melee, especially against Siege Units, fortify, benefit from rough terrain, attack cities and ships etc).

For the Torii (which replaces the Dojo), the goal is to go into the same design direction as the Kabuki Theater : that of a component that rewards urbanization and scales very well throughout the game (plus, it allows some good visual impact for the civ's landscape). It also provides an interesting balancing choice to the player : expending cultural Great People to create Torii will reduce the power of the Kabuki Theater, and inversely, but the yields complement each other in the end, so it's up to the player and what s/he wants for the endgame.

I did not change the Yamato because I do think that it respects the gameplay themes I talked about (fighting and scaling into the endgame), is a good summary of the power (and folly) of the Japanese imperial era and doesn't take a necessary unit slot for the civ (which now has a combat bonus for all its units from the start of the game).

As always, thanks for reading.

Edit 1 : Tweaked the Kondei to make it a skirmisher unit that has no malus against anti-mounted units + detached the Torii from the Holy Site (too many potential problems).

Edit 2 : Made the Kondei a mounted unit again (caused problems with the promotion tree), buff its RCS as a compensation ; buffed the base yields of the Torii.

Edit 3 : Added the Windmill and the Observatory for Buildings adding yields to Torii. Established a formula for the Kabuki Theater Production bonus from GMusician births.

 

[pineappledan]

This is a pretty cool idea. I like the Torii especially.
An interesting idea to create tension between a UB that scales on the strength of bulbs and a way to expend GWAMs that doesn't make their bulbs stronger.

Do the Toriis gain the +5 yields from reformation wonders, like the holy sites they replace?

"Gain Production equal to a value increased by the number of Great Works of Music in the Empire".

This is the only part I don't think works. Instant production is dangerous. There is a reason we have removed most cases of it from the game except instances we have specifically sanctioned for wonder-rushing civs.

 

[hokath]

Removing Samurai is iconoclasm. However you make a compelling argument.

Torii gate... GWAM making Holy Sites is a big trade, could be an interesting choice. Buildable on Coast tiles is based and we love that.

+1 Culture per Building providing Merchant specialists in the City (Market / Customs House / Bank / Stock Exchange)
+1 Faith per Building providing Engineer specialists in the City (Forge / Workshop / Factory / Coaling Station)
+1 Tourism per Building providing Scientist specialists in the City (Library / University / Public School / Research Lab)
Has no technology bonus

This bit is, to me, needless complexity to achieve effectively the same goal.

If it had a more interest effect I could get behind it, but atm I prefer Seven Virtues from the Dojo and adapting to which units I get.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Why is instant production dangerous? Is it specifically because of wonder rushing?

 

[azum4roll]

Why is instant production dangerous? Is it specifically because of wonder rushing?

It's a big blast of production on demand, that's not on an existing source (Great Engineer). That said, the trigger is on another GP, so maybe this one is fine?

 

[pineappledan]

re putting the torii gate in coast. have you tried to do that? The art has a huge base at the bottom; I'm worried it will look ugly.

 

[pineappledan]

This bit is, to me, needless complexity to achieve effectively the same goal.

It would be cool if filled specialist slots boosted Torii

 

[Rustonreddit]

So, the picture of the leader and the UU, the Samurai, are too many katanas??

 

[Rekk]

Attack malus against Naval Units
Attack malus against Cities
Cannot melee attack
No Terrain Defense

Why would they lose their attack malus against naval units, cities, and lack of terrain defense? Were Kondei particularly good at destroying boats with arrows and hiding in terrain?

Have you tested ranged units that can melee attack? At the very least, it seems there would be jank with the attack interface.

 

[Pipiskus]

I dont get all too many katanas sentiment either but to find a middle ground i think you can make a skirmisher out of regular knight calling it Hatamoto (basically a samurai on the horse), though you would probably need to lower its Strength a little bit for exchange of range attack.

 

[Rekk]

UB - Kabuki Theater :
- replaces the bonus Culture from internal Trade Routes with "Gain Culture from Experience gained in Combat for Units born in the City" ;
- change the bonus from Great Musician birth to "Gain Production equal to a value increased by the number of Great Works of Music in the Empire"

I don't like how the combat culture has just been tacked on to a building that doesn't have anything to do with combat.

You mention ashigaru. What part of the kit is this from?

 

[KlHannibal2]

I really like the idea of a skirmisher that can melee-attack (or a knight that can ranged-attack).

 

[pineappledan]

I played around with the idea of giving a melee unit a ranged attack at 1 point and I'm not sure how you can implement this. If a unit has an RCS it won't attack using its melee attack.

 

[Pipiskus]

I played around with the idea of giving a melee unit a ranged attack at 1 point and I'm not sure how you can implement this. If a unit has an RCS it won't attack using its melee attack.

what if we make it optional only at times when you dont have enough movements to attack someone in that turn in melee but you can reach them with your range to shoot. Or range attack replaces melee completely? Yeah, probably not possible. But i think we can still kind of mimic that with unit counterattacking range attacks at least, seems interesting.

 

[Hinin]

So, the picture of the leader and the UU, the Samurai, are too many katanas??

The most famous gunpowder tactician in Japanese history has three katanas instead, the medieval unique unit uses katanas and the unique building is about a training room for warriors (most often with katanas). It's like someone wanted to plaster a "samurai with katana" banner on anything remotely Japanese in fear that people wouldn't recognize the civ otherwise.

Do the Toriis gain the +5 yields from reformation wonders, like the holy sites they replace?

That's a good question. There is also the problem of the belief that boost Holy Site + the impact of the Torii on @hokath's Religious Victory mod.

There are two solutions to this : either we drastically reduce these bonuses for the Torii specifically, or we remove the "replace Holy site" part and make the Torii something that stands alongside Holy Sites. I'm more in favor of the second solution tbh.

This is the only part I don't think works. Instant production is dangerous. There is a reason we have removed most cases of it from the game except instances we have specifically sanctioned for wonder-rushing civs.

It's a big blast of production on demand, that's not on an existing source (Great Engineer). That said, the trigger is on another GP, so maybe this one is fine?

I'm with azum on that one : it all depends on the base yield value and the scaling, but I think it can be contained since it's only on one specific GPerson (that furthermore only arrives in great number towards the end of the game).

Removing Samurai is iconoclasm. However you make a compelling argument.

Tbh, I very much like to remove components that are there because they are "iconic". The concept of sacrality in video game design irks me.

Just wait until I propose the removal of the Musketeer, the Immortal and the Legion.

re putting the torii gate in coast. have you tried to do that? The art has a huge base at the bottom; I'm worried it will look ugly.

I have tried in the past, and if I remember well it does fine.

It would be cool if filled specialist slots boosted Torii

If it could be done, that would be interesting indeed, but at least what I propose is very simple to do in sql and really not that complicated once you understand the concept.

Why would they lose their attack malus against naval units, cities, and lack of terrain defense? Were Kondei particularly good at destroying boats with arrows and hiding in terrain?

It was mostly a way to show the versatility of Japanese warriors throughout the centuries (capable of using many types of weapons and tactics), but it also a reference to two periods of Japanese military history : the conquest and integration of Emishi and Ainu peoples in northern Kyushu on one hand, and the fight against the naval invasions of the Yuan on the other.

Have you tested ranged units that can melee attack? At the very least, it seems there would be jank with the attack interface.

We'll have to check, but I wouldn't be sad if it proves to be jank and it wasn't implemented in the end. It's more flavor with a gameplay side-benefit than a major element of the unit identity.

Another solution could be to make the unit "Unmounted" and give it some kind of dummy promotion like "Kobudo - Can fortify and benefit from Terrain Defensive bonuses. Has no attack malus against Cities and Naval Units or Combat malus against anti-mounted Units. Lost upon upgrade." This would be much more powerful than what I'm proposing right now, so it balancing would be required elsewhere. Yes, I'll go with that.

I dont get all too many katanas sentiment either but to find a middle ground i think you can make a skirmisher out of regular knight calling it Hatamoto (basically a samurai on the horse), though you would probably need to lower its Strength a little bit for exchange of range attack.

After reflection, it seems to me that this all story of "ranged unit that can melee attack" is "high effort, low result". I prefer editing my proposal to make the Kondei a bit different.

I don't like how the combat culture has just been tacked on to a building that doesn't have anything to do with combat.

There is a whole part of the Kabuki catalogue that is about the life of famous warriors. This bonus is meant to translate how personal exploits and legends fueled Japanese folk culture. It follows the same logic as what I did with the Vietnamese Mua Roi Nuoc.

You mention ashigaru. What part of the kit is this from?

Nowhere. I was simply saying that the katana samurai 3d model, if we wanted to be faithful to what it could be used for historically, would be better off as an officer within a formation of ashigaru (we have all the arts required to make ashigaru units a reality).

Edit :
- Torii : Remove the "replace Holy Site" part and the ability for Great Prophet to built it.
- Kondei : Return the "Can melee attack" part ; tweaks to make the unit immune to anti-mounted bonuses.

 

[azum4roll]

We shouldn't have dummy promotions imo. It's confusing for modders. The help/strategy text should cover the lack of penalties already.

I have absolutely no idea how to make this immune to anti-mounted bonuses. It'll likely also make the unit overpowered (completely destroying Pikeman and hurting Tercio a lot).

Torii seems to be in direct competition with Great Works, and looks vastly inferior to them. What's the point of building them?

Comparison (Torii vs Great Work):
+ has Faith yield
= same Culture and Tourism early on, and slightly better later, BUT offset by theming bonuses, to the point of being worse if you have Artistry
- needs to be worked, so the yields are also in competition with what could've been on the tile (if you have enough population), and in competition with other tiles (if you don't)

 

[Hinin]

We shouldn't have dummy promotions imo. It's confusing for modders. The help/strategy text should cover the lack of penalties already.

Having a dummy promotion that is visible next to the unit flag is much better for players to know at a glance what makes this unit special in particular.

I have absolutely no idea how to make this immune to anti-mounted bonuses.

All skirmisher-type units are archer units with the IsMounted column activated in the Units tables. We only need to put the value at 0 for the Kondei.

It'll likely also make the unit overpowered (completely destroying Pikeman and hurting Tercio a lot).

Except if we give minimal bonus strength compared to a base Heavy Skirmisher (+0 or +1 RCS only). That way, the combat benefit of the unit isn't in its pure power, but in its consistency.

Torii seems to be in direct competition with Great Works, and looks vastly inferior to them. What's the point of building them?

It has its benefits and disadvantages :
- the Torii doesn't require Great Work slots, can be used to improve bad bonus resources or base tiles (for example Tundra or water tiles), natually grows in power throughout the game without needing heavy commitment in specific strategies and benefits from ideology tenets boosting UIs in the endgame (in addition to providing bonus Tourism once the Hotels are online) + it is a source of early faith for the civ
- Great Works require less territory and citizens, boosts cultural GPeople bulbing (even more so with the Kabuki) and has bonus synergy with Artistry

In the end, it is a question of tall vs wide, artistry vs other policy trees etc. It open possibilities for the player with clear strengths and weaknesses on both side.

 

[Rekk]

and the fight against the naval invasions of the Yuan on the other

Yeah, but that was either through boarding actions on their own ships or on land, whereas this would be them shooting arrows at nearby ships.

 

[Hinin]

Yeah, but that was either through boarding actions on their own ships or on land, whereas this would be them shooting arrows at nearby ships.

As I said, it's more a global reference to versatility. That said, if it irks people too much, I wouldn't be too bothered to see the malus maintained. The unit would still have a lot going for it.

 

[trinket]

does this mean 8 virtues will be gone? shame, that was helpful in keeping japan dominant even without resources.
also a strong horse archer, a focus on GG, a unique GPTI, and a power spike in medieval —isn't that too close to the Mongol kit?