I've also thought of this.
Another idea is that the capital always builds Great Galleass while puppets can only purchase Fusta.
[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Venice
- Thread starter pineappledan
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Another idea is that the capital always builds Great Galleass while puppets can only purchase Fusta.
pineappledan
Deity
This appears to be what we are circling the drain to create. Essentially the Barbican's free building on construction, but it's a free unit on different unit trained.
The problem is that removes player control over what you produce and when, seemingly just to remove an icon from the civ select screen.
Rekk
Deity
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The Fusta would still be a separate unit from the Great Galleass, which requires that it have its own unit entry. You're trying to twist yourselves into knots into having it be not included in the civ select screen when people have been pushing to have as much information as possible front-loaded on that screen.
The proper comparison would be if the Great Galleass gave a free Caravel or some other base unit that wouldn't need a completely new unit entry. If Barbican's free Armory (?) was also a unique building, we would be putting that second unique building on the civ select screen.
I think you could remove Banco Giro and bake its power into Piazza San Marco's unique buildings, no? How often are non-Venice cities popping out Great Merchants anyway? I think the gold > GMerchant pts scaler could just be increased a little bit to compensate.
So something like:
Rialto District gets:
+3 Food
and +3
Gold to Rialto District for each Banco Giro Bank on empire
Arsenale di Venezia gets:
+2
Production and 
Science to Arsenale di Venezia for each Banco Giro Bank on empire
Murano Glassworks gets:
+2
Culture and 
Tourism to Murano Glassworks for each Banco Giro Bank on empire
Piazza San Marco gets:
5% of Gold generated in this city each turn is converted into 
Great Merchant Points
- [If it's possible to delay this ability until Banking, you might also get away with 5% of Gold generated on empire is converted but that's a little wilder in terms of power]
And then you can remove the Banco Giro to make space for the 2 military UUs.
So something like:
Rialto District gets:
+3 Food
and +3Gold Arsenale di Venezia gets:
+2
Production and Science Murano Glassworks gets:
+2
Culture and Tourism Piazza San Marco gets:
5% of
Gold generated in this city each turn is converted into Great Merchant Points- [If it's possible to delay this ability until Banking, you might also get away with 5% of Gold generated on empire is converted but that's a little wilder in terms of power]
And then you can remove the Banco Giro to make space for the 2 military UUs.
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@pineappledan Could you update the OP to incorporate ma_kuh's idea or otherwise.
Recursive has decreed you may not have 5UC
Recursive has decreed you may not have 5UC
pineappledan
Deity
you're referring to this?
@Hinin's explanation for Venice's Great Galleass/Fusta components is the same as my own: The two units combined act as a single replacement to a single base component, thus I consider them as a single UC.
Venice has a chronic war supply problem. We endeavored to fix that by giving them a weak, spammable UU to give Venice coverage irrespective of supply constraints. However, since no one likes weak, spam UUs, we paired it with a stronger version with the normal supply and maintenance constraints to act as a straighforward upgrade.
Counterproposals Opened for VP Congress (Special) Session #8
Hey all, As it would take a miracle for the (7-92) Integrate 4UC Mod Into Vox Populi vote to fail at this point, counterproposals are now opened for Session #8 until July 18, 2024 at 10 AM CDT, after which the Sponsorship, Processing, Voting, Implementation and Playtesting Phases will take...
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@Hinin's explanation for Venice's Great Galleass/Fusta components is the same as my own: The two units combined act as a single replacement to a single base component, thus I consider them as a single UC.
Venice has a chronic war supply problem. We endeavored to fix that by giving them a weak, spammable UU to give Venice coverage irrespective of supply constraints. However, since no one likes weak, spam UUs, we paired it with a stronger version with the normal supply and maintenance constraints to act as a straighforward upgrade.
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MAGI
While they may pursue a similar function, at the end of the day they are completely seperate units. They have their own stats, artwork, etc, and unlike some other multi component factors (like America's UNW) they can both be present in the same game.
The Magi have discussed and are treating this as a 5UC situation, and have decided no 5UC civs will be allowed in this congress. Please redesign the civ with that in mind, or we can veto this proposal.
pineappledan
Deity
Nothing you have said here is not equally true of mutually exclusive UNWs and UIs build by UGPs also have their own stats and artwork. In the case of UGP making a UGPTI, the two components in question aren't even the same category.
But fine, edited the OP to drop the GGalleass. The Fusta is now a standalone unit that is weaker and cheaper than the base galleass. If Venice has to sacrifice either coverage or conventional strength then it can get by without the conventional steroid, but consuming 2 separate component slots to cover a single base component is absurd.
ScarletArkyning
Wannabe Great Writer
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Maybe the fusta needs some sorta buff without the Great Galleas to cover for it. Not sure what tho. Cause as it is it’s more a sidegrade whereas most other UUs are unique and stronger.
ScarletArkyning
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That is not the problem for me. For me it is that the Fusta is not very unique and memorable as a UU without the Great Galleass to back it up. It is simply a weaker and faster ship, acting more as a recon unit on water than anything. It is not unique, and it is certainly not memorable.
Compare with the Vaka Nui: Gold on city attack and XP on explore. Unique gimmicks that differentiate the ship from its base variant.
Norse Longship: Blockade, giving it a strong leg up with a high tier promotion on spawn, and available earlier, giving them a hard punching ship ahead of the rest of the civs. Unique
Spanish Armada: A doozy of a UU, practically rewriting stratagem with its promotions. Heavier hitter on full health, GA points from kill, slower and already just straight up stronger.
I’m just a sucker for Venice, with its vast utility and unique style, and I would not like to see it left with a lacklustre UU that fails to live up to the unique part of the title UU. Now as to what could be done, perhaps costal and trade bonuses, to represent the Venetian supremacy in the Eastern Mediterranean and the importance of the fleet with protecting trade.
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Anarcomu
King
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Looks like a big oversight, it should definitely not happen.
Though it is perfectly understandable how it wasn't thought of. Quit a niche situation.
Lmao, that's cool
So Venice is even more diplomatic than I thought so!In general? Why?
pineappledan
Deity
CS are blocked from gifting recon units.
Conquistadors aren't considered "recon" units, but they're UUs which are blocked.
ScarletArkyning
Wannabe Great Writer
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I had a thought for a bonus for the Fusta to make it more unique. 10% combat bonus on coast, and 10% in owned territory, both stacking. Represents the wide usage of galleys of this sort in the shallow shores of the Mediterranean Sea, and it’s wide usage in protecting the Venetian shores. In game it would be used in a similar manner, storming coast cities like Constantinople in 1204, then protecting those cities from pushback from the pissed off Byzantines.
HalfEmptyMug
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I think removing the Great Galleass in favor of the Fusta is a massive mistake. Playing a game on the latest version, I believe the only change needed is removing the Fusta instead. Venice in their 2UC form seemed to be one of the best civs in the game despite their shortcomings, and was the only civ I've tried and succeeded in beating deity difficulty with. With 4UC they still seem to be top tier, and the Fusta either doesn't change that much at best, or can break mechanics of the game at worst.
Main concerns / arguments against the Fusta:
1. Having a cheap unique unit that doesn't require supply or maintenance allows the player to abuse several mechanics of the game.
The final Fealty policy (Fiefdoms) can be broken by buying up loads of ships (possibly with faith via the Zealotry belief) in the renaissance/industrial era and keeping them out of sight until the endgame, obtaining infinite happiness. There's also implications for policies like Freedom's "Arsenal of Democracy" which gives a bonus to unit gifts, and can be gamed by hoarding these units too. If any other policy or belief is changed in the future to scale on unit count, this will remain a concern.
2. The Fusta doesn't serve it's stated purpose of defending trade routes.
In my experience Venice generally doesn't have a difficult time defending coastal shipping close to home, but ocean shipping farther away, which the Fusta's low CS and slow ocean movement make it a poor fit for. Barbarian caravels aren't countered particularly well far from friendly territory to heal, and In the event of a major war most shipping will be pillaged in enemy territory you can't access immediately, in ocean space you can't completely observe, or directly near cities not well defended.
The Great Galleass far better fits this role as they are individually far more capable and Venice can still build them after researching navigation. They can have a capable, non-iron ranged ship to defend coastal areas, which frees up valuable frigates to patrol the high seas as you look to secure more Iron before industrialization. Also, one Great Galleass can monitor an area for longer without healing and better counter barbarian ships.
Edit: I forgot frigates no longer required iron. They are still cheaper to produce/buy than frigates while still holding their own in the era, start with Bombardment I (giving higher quality frigates on upgrade), and are more effective at sieging in some scenarios due to being able to move after attacking, so I still think they fill a defensive and offensive role better.
3. Venice's chronic war supply problem is an important counter to their power.
In a similar way that India's inability to make missionaries allows them to have unique religion mechanics without being broken, Venice's supply and unit production constraints check their unique trade and puppet mechanics.
There are already multiple ways for the player to address this dilemma with their current kit:
- Investing in unit quality rather than quantity via infrastructure investment, wonders (including their own unique wonder), culture policies, and leveraging the Great Galleass.
- Increasing supply via conquering and buying city states, conquering less defended coastal cities, and settling Colonia (which I think is no longer capped?).
- Avoiding war/pillaging in the first place via allying neighbors and city states.
The Fusta doesn't change Venice's dilemma, it just breaks the calculous for a short period of time and makes decision making less interesting. I would say if the player winds up in a scenario where the Fusta is their only option, there were many mistakes made before to get to that point (though I'm not convinced that's even a likely scenario). I would say the same if someone had a dire religious situation with India that they thought only missionaries could solve, but I doubt that is a likely scenario either. There might be an argument that it's useful to make the AI more competitive, but I don't think that outweighs the potential mechanic breaking by the player.
If you read all that, thanks. Venice is one of my favorite civs to play and I want them to remain in a good place, especially if 4UC's going to be integrated moving forward.
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